Cyprus-Forum.com

[Tim Drayton]

[...]
Why has there been no action,on both sides,to find those responsible for the attrocities and punish them?
[...]

If Afrika is to be believed, the RoC Attorney General's Office is currently conducting an investigation into a complaint filed by relatives of those murdered in the villages of Maratha, Sandalaris and Aloa (names as they appear on my English-language map of Cyprus) in 1974.

Tim, I am sure there were TC survivors (at least one) who lived to tell what happened. One TC male pretended to be dead amongst the bodies. What ever happened with his testimony ?

I think you are confusing this event, in which all those killed were women and children, with the Tochni massacre. I believe that the RoC Attorney General's Office investigated the latter atrocity without result.

[YFred]

[...]
Why has there been no action,on both sides,to find those responsible for the attrocities and punish them?
[...]

If Afrika is to be believed, the RoC Attorney General's Office is currently conducting an investigation into a complaint filed by relatives of those murdered in the villages of Maratha, Sandalaris and Aloa (names as they appear on my English-language map of Cyprus) in 1974.

Tim, I am sure there were TC survivors (at least one) who lived to tell what happened. One TC male pretended to be dead amongst the bodies. What ever happened with his testimony ?

I think you are confusing this event, in which all those killed were women and children, with the Tochni massacre. I believe that the RoC Attorney General's Office investigated the latter atrocity without result.

The whole thing is a joke, they have known for years who committed these atrocities and protected them. To pretend to investigate these events is actually quite an insult.

[Pyrpolizer]

We often hear from Bir and other TCs that Talat it totally tied by Turkey in doing what they want.

The question is: did the TCs know what they were upto when they started their Taksim struggle? Have they ever predicted they would eventually end up puppets in the hands of Turkey? When exactly after 1974 did they realize this reality?

Given the fact today the are absolutely certain what it means to be in the hands of Turkey:
Are they in a position to predict what would happen if we have Turkey as a guarantor in a solution?

[YFred]

We often hear from Bir and other TCs that Talat it totally tied by Turkey in doing what they want.

The question is: did the TCs know what they were upto when they started their Taksim struggle? Have they ever predicted they would eventually end up puppets in the hands of Turkey? When exactly after 1974 did they realize this reality?

Given the fact today the are absolutely certain what it means to be in the hands of Turkey:
Are they in a position to predict what would happen if we have Turkey as a guarantor in a solution?

When Denktash met Inonu in the sixties to discuss Turkish intervention in case GCs attacked TCs, Inonu was reputed to comment "We will come and save from the Greek Cypriots, but who will save you from us". Make that what you will.

[BirKibrisli]

Hi,Kikapu...I already said my goodbyes to this thread but i cannot let your post go unanswered...You have put a lot of effort into writing it,and I have no doubt you sincerely believe in what you say...

Let me say this from the start...I am the same person who for years came here and advocated a Unitary state solution based entirely on one vote one value system,and without any ethnic considerations or affirmative actions...I am also the same person who believes that the best way out of this situation is to assert our Cypriotness and push our ethnicity in the background...It makes sense to me to focus on our similarities than our diffrences...Any solution that will highlight our ethnicities will only work to cement the old bittreness and resentment...That is still my belief....However...It takes 2 to tango...I have realised that neither side are ready and able to dance to my or your tunes...I will tell you why...The TCs are not ready and able (and I am talking about those in the dispora as well) for the same reason that a trauma patient would not be able to return to the scene of his/her pain and suffering or be able to face his/her abuser without an intensive therapy and rehabilitation process...Now sometimes this therapy might include taking the patient back to the scene or make her confront her abuser,but that would have to be done under strict guidelines and precautions...In Cyprus this has not taken place...We have wasted precious time in denials and acusations and counter accusations,only to make healing almost impossible...On the other hand the GCs are not ready and able because they have been brainwashed from the beginning by their education and their Church...Enosis was their legitimate right,they believed,and when that was frustrated the TCs became the butt of their bitterness and resentment ..In GC eyes we became a despised minority who always reminded them of the Ottoman times,towards whom they could target their feelings or anger,vengence and hatred...I do not have any doubts that this Forum reflects the reality in the streets of Cyprus...Now,I am NOT saying that the TCs have not been equally brainwashed...I am not saying they are not harbouring similar feelings towards the GCs...I believe they do...So when you have 2 sides with so much physical and emotional baggage,who have no trust,respect or understanding for each other,you cannot expect them to get together and live in harmony,no matter how noble and desirable you or I think that might be...

Just look at the treatment we get here in this Forum...There are notable exceptions I know,and I am sorry I cannot say much to comfort our dear,decent GC compatriots... Unfortunately they find themselves as good apples in a basket of rotten ones and they cannot help the situation any more than you and I can...Day in day out we are told we are Ottoman remnants,unwelcomed guests,neo-imperialists,neo-colonialists,thieves,rapists and murderers...Not to mention more mild insults like liars,idiots,degenerates,and as one famously calls us "Turks" as if that is the biggest insult you could bestow on anyone...

Our pain and suffering is minimised,excused,justified,and most often totally denied...And when we talk about our personal trauma we are ridiculed,and accused of bringing everything upon ourselves as we are tools for Turkey's territorial ambitions...We are not really Cypriots but Turks who are somehow less patriotic or disloyal to our country,because we refused to let them present our motherland to Greece on a plate...

The best solution I can advocate now is a BBF with a "mild" Federal system,as an interim solution...Lets have as much democracy and EU principles as we can accomodate,and lets make sure neither Constituent State can unilaterally cecede from the Federated entity,and make sure as much land as possible changes hands to satisfy the right of return of as many refugees as possible,but let us also have some guarantees which will make the TCs sleep better at night in their own homes... A formula can be found perhaps where all the Turkish soldiers leave the island but the protection and the guarantees remain for some time,till we have the opportunity to build mutual understanding and trust...

I did not move lightly to this position,dear Kikapu,and I know it is very difficult to argue logically or intellectually with your democracy and human rights push...I know my arguments are mostly emotional,but they make sense to me...And they obviously make a lot of sense to the TCs...I am also aware that we have alternative lives now,and we do not live in Cyprus and need never return...We can be as ideological as the sky,and the solution need not affect us in the least...But when I come here and witness the denials,the insults and the abuse,and listen to those members of my family who still live in Cyprus tell me they couldn't possibly return to the bad old days when it was almost a crime to be a TC,I have no other choice but to sympathise...

[BirKibrisli]

Whatever,Piratis,Whatever...You go on believing what you want,but we have a saying in Turkish "Gunes balcikla sivanmaz" (Rough meaning: You cannot hide the Truth forever)...The truth will come out and we will all know...In the meanwhile I am still waiting for my gains to be realised on your losses...It has been 41 years and counting,since i lost my country and became a homeless person just to help Denktas achieve his dream of Taksim...Hope to live long enough to see my investment come in...I won't hold my breath however...See you on another thread...perhaps.....

The truth is not hidden Bir. There might be a few uncertainties about specific events, but the big picture is quite clear.

Denktash would tell you that your "investment" was not wasted and that you can return to Cyprus, get a lot of "exchange property" (a lot more than what you left behind), sell it to foreigners and live happily ever after on the expense of the GC refugees.

If you had 10 plots in Insijo, he will give you 15 plots in Lapithos. And then you can sell those plots in Lapithos to some idiot "Oramses" and then come to claim back your own property in the free areas. Now that is what I call "return on investment"!!

And I will tell Denktas where he can stick his "exchange land",but you probably don't believe that,Piratis...We are all thieves and crooks who would sell our mothers ,or our country, for a song,or maybe two songs...

[Pyrpolizer]

Mikki,read carefully what I said...I am talking about the period we were supposed to be partners in a Republic... This is the crucial time,this is what led to everything else inludung the 1974 events

This is where you go wrong Bir. What happened in the 60s didn't happen out of the blue. History is a chain of events, and nothing happens in the vacuum.

As I have shown and provided a ton of evidence, the inter-communal conflict didn't start in the 60s but in the 50s. It was started by the TCs who collaborated with the foreign Imperialists and attacked us. The first burning of homes and shops and the first massacres of innocents were commited by TCs against GCs in 1958.

You were NOT supposed to be "partners in a Republic". You were supposed to be equal citizens, part of an ethnic minority, just like the Muslims/Turks of Greece or Bulgaria, the Greeks in Turkey, or any other minority in any other country. Why should you be "partners" and those others should not? Whats is so special about your tiny community?

All those privileges you extracted on our expense with the 1960 agreements were not fair or what you were supposed to have, but a result of brute force and blackmail. In the 50s you started the inter-communal conflict and people were dying in their 100s, and you (along with Britain and Turkey) were threatening us that if we do not surrender to your demands you will annihilate the whole GC population from half of Cyprus and force partition.

These are the malicious tactics you used against us in order to gain all those privileges and power on our expense, and not because such power and privileges are supposed to be given to an 18% minority.

In 1963 Makarios proposed changes that would make the constitution more fair and democratic. Even after those changes your minority would still have more power and privileges than any other minority in any other country.

But you showed no desire to even negotiate those proposals since you wanted to maintain the 100% of all your ill received gains on our expense. Instead of that you withdrew from the government and you restarted the conflict.

Apparently your plan was to create a conflict so that Turkey could come and "save" you by applying your partition plan (which existed since the 50s). However Lyndon Johnson, the US president, prevented a Turkish invasion in June 1964, and you got yourselves in a conflict which was longer than you initially planned.

And yes, in that conflict you suffered and you had casualties. Nobody denies this. But you were also armed by Turkey and Turkish officers were in Cyprus helping you to harm us. 100s of GCs died too during that conflict, and you had even ethnically cleansed the Armenian Cypriots from their sector in Nicosia!

Today you continue in the same way. You continue collaborating with foreign Imperialists and you blackmail us by keeping half of our island as a hostage trying to extract even more gains on our expense. Or maybe you are going to tell me that your demands are fair and that the TCs are "Supposed to rule north Cyprus"? No mate. Don't confuse what you have the right for, with the ill received gains on our expense. You are NOT supposed to rule over territory which has been inhabited for 1000s of years by a vast majority of GCs. You have no right to legalize the ethnic cleansing against us. So even if your blackmail works, and you force us to accept your terms, this will not be the solution but only part of the problem, just like the 1960 agreements.

Piratis what do you think about reducing a totally unmanageable problem to a lesser but manageable one?

Do you think there was no peaceful way to make the 1960 constitution become fairer and workable?

[Pyrpolizer]

We often hear from Bir and other TCs that Talat it totally tied by Turkey in doing what they want.

The question is: did the TCs know what they were upto when they started their Taksim struggle? Have they ever predicted they would eventually end up puppets in the hands of Turkey? When exactly after 1974 did they realize this reality?

Given the fact today the are absolutely certain what it means to be in the hands of Turkey:
Are they in a position to predict what would happen if we have Turkey as a guarantor in a solution?

When Denktash met Inonu in the sixties to discuss Turkish intervention in case GCs attacked TCs, Inonu was reputed to comment "We will come and save from the Greek Cypriots, but who will save you from us". Make that what you will.

This guy Inonu must have been a very wise Turk!!!

What about my 2nd question? ---> Bir?

[Tim Drayton]

There are people with exchange points who have still been unable to acquire an exchange property.

[BirKibrisli]

We often hear from Bir and other TCs that Talat it totally tied by Turkey in doing what they want.

The question is: did the TCs know what they were upto when they started their Taksim struggle? Have they ever predicted they would eventually end up puppets in the hands of Turkey? When exactly after 1974 did they realize this reality?

Given the fact today the are absolutely certain what it means to be in the hands of Turkey:
Are they in a position to predict what would happen if we have Turkey as a guarantor in a solution?

Pyro,
The TCs did not really know they were struggling for Taksim...Even when they were shouting in the streets "Ya Taksim Ya Olum" (partition or death!) they were only countering the demand for Enosis...Denktas and the TMT knew what they were doing of course,but they were ultra Turkish nationalists,they do not see anything wrong with being subjected to Turkey...They welcome it...After 1963 when over a hundred villages were evacuated and some 30,000 people became refugees (a quarter of the population!),these people saw no other option but keep up with the struggle...During 63-74,the dark years to be a TC in Cyprus,the TCs only managed to survive with Turkey's help,long enough till they found a way to emmigrate...This is what you need to understand,Pyro...The average TC does not see himself as a puppet...He/she is grateful that Turkey came in 74 and saved them from what they truly believed was a terrible fate... And they will always be grateful...