BirKibrisli wrote:Kikapu wrote:BirKibrisli wrote:Kikapu wrote:
@Bir,
When you put the core reason as to why the problems in 1963 and beyond started were only because of the dream of Enosis starting even before the British gave the island back to it's people, it does not make it so, as being the only culprit 100%. Blaming Enosis as the sole reason why Turkey was forced to come and take territory against her best wishes despite Enosis not being the NATIONAL CAUSE for the GCs after 1968 is hard to believe that Turkey did not have interests in expanding her territories, because what you are saying is, once the Enosis dream was created, from then on anything Turkey did was justifiable no matter if the Enosis dream did end in 1968. You are saying Enosis dream can be the blame and was the "core cause" no matter if the GCs no longer supported it, specially in 1974 since it was the Junta from Greece that initiated the coup and not the regular GCs, but only the GC fanatics. By doing so, are you then not opening the doors for Piratis to come and say to us once again, god forbid, that had the Ottomans not come to Cyprus back in 1571, there would not have been a need for Enosis, therefore "Turkey" can be blamed for everything as being the "core" reason for the Cyprus problems starting back in 1571. So lets be careful not to start and end everything with Enosis as being the core reason for everything going wrong in Cyprus, specially when the National Cause was no longer Enosis after 1968, in 1974 or in 2010. Taksim on the other hand has never stopped being, even if it was a reactionary movement to Enosis back then. What is the excuse for Taksim being after 1968, 1974 and in 2010.? Here is a simple equation Bir.
Turkey's territorial ambitions = Taksim
Taksim = Turkey's territorial ambitions
you cannot not have one without the other, is the reason why Taksim has never seized to exists from 1950's to present..
Kikapu,
I can only repeat myself...You are making a big mistake if you think Enosis was like a candle or a tap that any one person could blow out or turn off with one single action,at one single point in time...Even if that person was Makarios...Sure he had stopped publicly advocating it,but that does not mean the average GC in 1968 had stopped dreaming of it..The coming to power of the fascist Junta in Greece would have put a damper on things,but the GCs and certainly Makarios never gave up his Enosis related dream of dominating and ruling the TCs politically,socially and culturally....What do you think EOKA B was all about...?A democratic movement to advance the human rights of all Cypriots???From the moment Makarios stopped talking about Enosis EOKA B kicked into life,and their struggle for Enosis took on another journey which culminated in the coup against Makarios...and you seem to have forgotten about Papadopoulos...This man who was one of the leaders of the Eoka movement,and who together with Makarios and Yorgadjis hatched the Akritas plan to sideline,dominate and rule the lives of the TCs was President of Cyprus only a few short years ago...does that suggest to you that the average GC had given up on the EOKA and the dream of Enosis...? No,Kikapu,the dream of Enosis lived on in peoples hearts and found a practical expression in 1963 when they wrestled power from the TCs...And notice how they have refused to give it back ever since...Do you really believe that the sole reason there hasn't been an agreed solution to date was Denktas? I have another simple formula for you...
GC nationalist ambition to rule over the TCs = Taksim
Taksim = GC nationalist ambition to rule over the TCs This equation is also in operation as we speak...so I can easily say "at the CORE of Cyprus Problem lies the GC nationalist ambition to dominate and rule the TCs....
ps Piratis is right of course...Had 1571 never happened there wouldn't be a Cyprus problem today..Or at least we wouldn't be involved in it...I sincerely wish that was the case...But it isnt...We have been in Cyprus since 1571 (Much earlier than the British came to Australia in 1788!) and we are still here...The TCs are double victims....We are the victims of the Ottoman expansion and we are the victims of GC nationalism/Hellenism ideology...spare a thought for us while elevating Turkey's territorial ambitions to the CORE of Cyprob,hence making sure we will never find a solution, as you let the GC nationalists off the hook very lightly indeed...
First of all, I'm not excusing anyone Bir, when it comes to the Cyprus problem and I'm not saying the problems in Cyprus were because of Turkey's territorial ambitions was the core cause. Lets stay with your original question and not add to it. You started asking me a question as to whether the core cause of the Cyprus problems was Turkey's territorial ambitions. This is what I'm responding to, and giving what has happened in the past and what is happening today, it is impossible to come to any other conclusion but to say Taksim and Turkey's territorial ambitions are one and the same regardless of which came first, Enosis or Taksim, but what you are saying is, the moment the Enosis dream was hatched back when, Turkey had the right to take part of Cyprus, and in order for her to do that, Taksim had to be alive and well. You are putting all the blame on Enosis dream as a justification to Turkey's actions today. This is what I'm talking about. Of course there are going to be fanatics who support Enosis back in 1968 and even today today, but lets separate them from the majority of GCs who does not support Enosis any longer, even back in 1974. My god, there are neo Nazi groups still in Germany who hate the foreigners today and here's still the KKK headquarters in the state Expat lives in Arkansas, also today.
You cannot eradicate some peoples wishful thinking, but that does not make it the national cause to hate foreigners in Germany or have a National cause against blacks in the USA, or a National cause for Enosis in 1974 or today in 2010, in Cyprus. If Turkey had /has no intention of having any territorial ambitions in Cyprus, why is she holding onto the north today. That was never part of her responsibilities an a guarantor power, so you see Bir, it is very hard to defend the argument that Turkey never had territorial ambitions had it not been for the GCs Enosis dream. These are reasons why the GCs do not want Turkey in Cyprus or as a guarantor power in the future. Dividing the island was against the mission they had signed up for, along with Greece and Britain. Today Greece and Britain are willing to let go their guarantor powers, but Turkey is not willing to do the same. You can believe that Enosis was the core cause for Turkey's actions in Cyprus since 1960, but Enosis dream came and went, where as Taksim dream is alive and well, because the moment the Taksim dream is also dead, so will the occupation of the north by Turkey. I don't know how else to put it to you.
You mentioned EOKA, but lets separate EOKA-A from EOKA-B, because just by saying "EOKA", you are implying it is the same group. You are saying that "EOKA" was taking over from Makarios's dream for Enosis after 1968, but from all the reports written, it appears that no harm had come to the TCs from any GC groups after 1968, so there was a sense that Enosis was on it's way out. Of course the life for the TCs was not much better in the enclaves, but since Taksim was alive, why would their leaders or Turkey make life any better for the TCs by finding a solution for the problems back in 1968 and beyond until 1974. But if Taksim was alive, then so must have been Turkey's territorial ambitions. You cannot ignore this connection because they are one and the same. Had Taksim also died in 1968, then just perhaps a solution could have been found and the TCs could have been out of the enclaves soon afterwards. Of course this was not going to make up what happened to them since 1963, but they could have saves further 6 years of hardship.
Now, as for Piratis's comments on 2 states becoming 1 state is something I warned VP about when we were discussing my BBF plan. What Piratis was saying because I read that conversation between he and Bananiot, was, if there was a "normal" Federation on the present size of the divide north and south, the GCs will be a majority in both the states because everyone would have the right to return back to their land. That is absolutely true. These two majorities in each state will then be able to form a ONE state and become a unitary state. This is what I warned VP about, that the north needs to give back 50% of the north back to the GCs to become part of the south state, so that the north can maintain the overwhelming TC majority so that the two states cannot be able to vote to become a unitary state, unless of course, the TCs also took part in making that decision to become a unitary state and do away with the Federation. But the bottom line is, of course the GCs would like to have a unitary state over a 2 state Federal one, but this is the compromise that they have made including the rotating presidency. I have shown you all how this can work for the TCs in a True Federation which the GCs have not liken the idea short of our good friend, DT, but it appears that what the north wants is not a workable True Federation with EU Principles, but for the Taksim to continue with a Confederation, much like the Annan Plan, which would also keep Turkey's territorial ambitions alive and well.!
Okey,Kikapu,we will have to agree to disagree on that point...
You will never get me to say at the CORE of cyprus problem lies Turkey's territorial ambitions..simply because it is not true...Turkey is occupying part of Cyprus as a
RESULT of the Cyprus Problem...Turkey is not the
CAUSE of it...
It is simply an intellectually and morally corrupt exercise to try to reduce the core of the problem to Turkey's territorial ambitions...If you want to take out of the equation, Enosis and the EOKA and the 63/64 bloody events,the highjacking of the RoC government,and the 63-74 plight of the TCs and the EOKA B and the coup which installed Sampson, a selfdeclared enemy of the TCs as President, and leave Turkey's territorial ambitions as equal to Taksim,be my guest...I can't stop you,mate...But I can tell you that by reinforcing the GC nationalist propaganda line you are making yourself part of the problem,and not part of the solution...As long as the GCs keep believing that they did nothing wrong,and it is all the fault of the bloodyminded ,expansionist Turks and their TC collaborators,we will not have peace on the island...If we don't have peace we will inevitably have war again...That will mean more bitterness and hatred to go around for another 100 years...
Hi Bir,
You said this from above.
"You will never get me to say at the CORE of cyprus problem lies Turkey's territorial ambitions..simply because it is not true...Turkey is occupying part of Cyprus as a RESULT of the Cyprus Problem...Turkey is not the CAUSE of it..."
Who's asking you to accept this. I have told you already that this is not my position from the above post. Here is what I said.
"Bir, when it comes to the Cyprus problem and I'm not saying the problems in Cyprus were because of Turkey's territorial ambitions was the core cause."
I don't know how you missed that.?? The above does not mean however, that Turkey did not have any territorial ambitions, because the proof is already with us today since 1974. No matter how many times you want to blame Enosis being the "core cause" for today's situation in Cyprus, you're falling into the trap of believing that had Enosis dream never existed in the first place, then everything would be different today. It's just like saying, had Hitler were never born, then there never would have been a Nazi Germany in the 1930's-40's, therefore in your view, you are saying that the "core cause" was Hitler being born, as if Hitler invented Fascism and Nazism. In fact far from it. There would have been someone else by a different name becoming a dictator because the conditions at that time created those problems in Germany, not because Hitler was born. But lets just say that in your view that the "core cause" was Hitler being born, then someone else would say, no it wasn't, because the "core cause" was Hitler's parents having sex that produced Hitler, and another would say, no, no, the "core cause" was the parents meeting and marrying in the first place, and then comes along another and says, no, no, no, the "core cause" was the birth of Hitler’s parent that eventually produced Hitler. Do you see how this gets out of hand and the reason why Piratis goes all the way back to 1571 as being the "core cause".!
For me, the "core cause" was the creation of the unworkable undemocratic, Human Rights violation, Racists 1960 constitution, because when this document was created, Enosis and Taksim dream was alive and well which meant the territorial ambitions of Greece and Turkey in Cyprus were also alive and well, regardless which one came first, or else we are back to the "Hitler" case again. The 1960 constitution was the "vehicle" to bring about partitioning of Cyprus 3 ways, which Greece would take one part, Turkey would take the other, and Britain would take theirs and the hell with the TCs and GCs. Otherwise, why would the above three impose such an unworkable constitution.? They knew there would be problems sooner or later, and problems we got. This is not rocket science my friend, so stop putting all your eggs in one basket as what the "core cause" was for Cyprus's problems. If you needed another proof to once again cement those partition plans, then you need not go any further than the 2004 Annan Plan where it would have made partition permanent as well as have Turkey rule supreme over whole of Cyprus. You may call this GC propaganda, but I don't know how you can dismiss it when even today Turkey harps along the Annan Plan.
You may say, "yeah but, Greece approved the AP, the UN approved the AP, Britain approved the AP and the EU approved the AP and not just Turkey.” First of all, Greece had no choice but to "approve it" because they had to in public since they pushed to get Cyprus into the EU. That was the deal they made, but does not mean they really approved it. Why would they want to turn the keys to Cyprus over to Turkey.?? Kofi Annan was corrupted and had his own problems with Bush for all the "Oil for Food" program corruption in Iraq before the Iraq war, so in order for him to be re-elected as Secretary General, he had to go along with Bush, not to mention Kofi's son's corrupt dealings in Africa, therefore he became a puppet for the USA and Bush with all his problems. The EU would and could have cancelled the RoC's membership agreement the moment AP passed since they were no longer the country called the "ROC", which would have been OK with them, because they would have gotten the other 9 countries into the EU, so they may have actually approved the AP because it was not going to be a factor for the EU to deal with. On the other hand, they too may have played along with Greece to give the appearance of approving the AP knowing full well that the GCs would say NO to it, which then they could use Cyprus as a EU member to keep Turkey out of the EU as long as possible by using the Cyprus crises as being the "core cause" for her rejection.
Britain of course had much to gain from the AP also along with Turkey, and Tony Blair was no less corrupted at that time than Bush or Kofi Annan. Blair went along with what Bush wanted by getting UK into Iraq. The question you need to ask yourself is, why isn't Greece, Britain, the UN and the EU are no longer supporting the Annan Plan of 2004 or anything closely resembling such a plan. The simple answer is, they cannot since Cyprus is now a EU member, therefore, the situation for future settlement talks in Cyprus had changed dramatically and cannot return back to the days of the 1960 constitution no matter what Turkey or the TCs want, unless of course the GCs would want to give it to them at their own expense. 2004 AP referendum clearly stated the answer as being a big NO, OXI, HAYIR. From here on it can only be Democracy, Human Rights, International Laws and EU Principles which is what will guarantee TC's full participation as equal citizens, a state where they will be the majority as well as killing off any possibility of permanent partition, which I believe is what you have supported for a very long time, I thought.! But all the actions I see from the north and Turkey, is to keep Taksim alive and this is what I object to. To the NeoPartitionist this is a "GC position" that I'm taking. NO it is not. It is not wanting the destruction of our small island into pieces or having foreign countries rule us. Times have chanced from the dark days of the 50's, 60's and the 70's and we can all thank this because of Cyprus being in the EU, otherwise I would along with you would also have my doubts as to if we can all get along after our past events.
The place to start such a reconciliation to unite the island and it's people is to first stop the Enosis and Taksim dreams. This has to be the very first order of the day. By all indications show, that the Enosis dream is dead and all indications show, that the Taksim dream is alive and well. Unless this very basic issues are dealt with, it is hard to move onto the next level to bring any sense of normalcy to Cyprus. Unless the dream of Taksim is also dead, you are right, that the bitterness, hate, revenge will keep going which will bring further hardship to Cypriots, mostly to the TCs, because the GCs have the security of their legal, political and economical securities under the International and EU umbrella to protect their citizens and the RoC but the TCs only have a superficial security for their future from Turkey, who herself is desperate to become an EU member. She will not be able to provide any security for the remaining TCs and will make the deal for herself interests and let the TCs to fend for themselves in what ever the RoC may offer them at that time, which will be far less than what the TCs can receive today under the BBF. If by me pushing for a BBF under True Federation, True Democracy, Human Rights, International Laws and EU Principles to protect the rights of the TC community to become an "honest society" from what they have been given today by their leaders without any future for them, then go ahead and accuse me as being “part of the problem” and not “part of the solution”. If you think having a Democratic, Human Rights and International Law violations being “part of the solution”, then you are right, that I am part of the problem. If that's the kind of country you want for the TCs, then I have no desires to call such a place as my home country of origin, because I would be too ashamed to be part or support such Racist Apartheid system where basic violation of individual rights are accepted having lived in True Democratic countries in the last 45+ years of my life, despite it not being a perfect system at all times, it is far better than what you want for our people’s future and for our country of Cyprus.!
