Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

@ Expat

Stop spoiling threads with your crass contributions, dimwit!

[Expatkiwi]

Stop spoiling threads with your crass contributions, dimwit!

Awwww, am I getting on your nerves? Maybe you should stop being so crass yourself, Oracle! Seriously, its you who is provoking all of this! If you can be civil with me, why should I be with you?

[boomerang]

[YFred]

About the who started it ordeal:
If you search through history you will never get a valid answer as to who to blame.The "who started it" was always a very minor event, that got escalating and escalating, a situation when one thing led to another. Even WWI started from a minor event: the assassination of some heir to the throne of the Ausrto-Hungarians.Yet such assassinations were going on for centuries....

Even if you ask the Nazis they would tell you it was someone else's fault: The Jews who took total control of the economy, and others who stole their lands like Poland and Chechoslovakia, and others who wouldn't allow Austria uniting into a greater German Reich...

You need to dig deeper Pyro. WW1 was not caused by the killing of some prince. That was the excuse they used. The real reason was the intransigent Brits not allowing German companies to trade with the British empire. You are right though generally it is something very small. In WW1 case it was pins. Can't get any smaller than that can you?

[BirKibrisli]

A little bird told me about this article,i believe to have been published in a reputable newspaper in Greece...Apparently it is very balanced and talks about both sides wrong doings....I look forward to your objective comments...

Ξεχασμένες ευθύνες 1963 ~1974

Άρθρο του Διονύση Γουσέτη από την εφημερίδα 'Αυγή'.

Λίγο πριν τα δημοψηφίσματα στην Κύπρο, φαίνεται ότι υπερισχύει το μίσος. Διαπιστώνουμε και πάλι την αδικία κατά του ανάδελφου έθνους μας και υπέρ του προαιώνιου εχθρού. Ανακαλούμε με οργή τους βανδαλισμούς του 1955 στην Κωνσταντινούπολη, ή την εν ψυχρώ εκτέλεση, το 1974, δεκάδων ή εκατοντάδων Ελληνοκυπρίων αιχμαλώτων, γεγονός που ομολόγησε δημόσια και ο ίδιος ο Ντενκτάς. Αποσιωπάμε όμως τις δολοφονικές πράξεις των παρακρατικών ομάδων του Σαμψών, του Γεωργκάτζη και του Λυσσαρίδη, καθώς και της Χούντας σε βάρος των Τουρκοκυπρίων, κατά την περίοδο 1963- 1974. Είναι χρήσιμο να τις θυμηθούμε (δανείζομαι αποσπάσματα από εργασία του Γιώργου Νακρατζά -1999).

Οι προθέσεις του προέδρου Μακάριου εκφράστηκαν σε ένα λόγο του στο χωριό Παναγία στις 4/9/1962: «…μέχρις ότου εκδιωχθεί η μικρή αυτή τουρκική κοινότητα, ούσα τμήμα της τουρκικής φυλής, του φοβερού αυτού εχθρού του Ελληνισμού, το καθήκον των ηρώων της ΕΟΚΑ δεν θα μπορεί να θεωρηθεί ως περατωθέν». Σχετική επιστολή διαμαρτυρίας του Ντενκτάς δεν έτυχε απάντησης. Και στις 30/11/1963, ο Μακάριος υπέβαλε τα περίφημα 13 σημεία αλλαγής του Συντάγματος, παραβιάζοντας τη συνθήκη της Γενεύης. Η άρνηση των Τουρκοκυπρίων να τα δεχθούν εμφανίστηκε από τα κυπριακά Μ.Μ.Ε. σαν «τουρκική ανταρσία εναντίον του κράτους».

Η σημαντικότερη ελληνοκυπριακή επίθεση ήταν η επίθεση εναντίον της Ομορφίτας, προαστίου της Λευκωσίας. Επικεφαλής των ενόπλων παρακρατικών ήταν ο Νίκος Σαμψών, τον οποίον ο ελληνοκυπριακός τύπος αποκαλούσε από τότε «κατακτητή της Ομορφίτας». Σύμφωνα με την υπ’ αριθ. S/5950 έκθεση του Γ.Γ. του ΟΗΕ, «50 σπίτια καταστράφηκαν ολοσχερώς και 240 μερικώς. Από το σύνολο των 5.000 Τουρκοκυπρίων, 4.500 κατόρθωσαν να καταφύγουν ασφαλείς στον τουρκικό τομέα της Λευκωσίας ενώ 500 άτομα συνελήφθηκαν και οδηγήθηκαν στο σχολείο της Λευκωσίας Κύκκος, όπου κρατήθηκαν μαζί με άλλους 150 Τουρκοκύπριους, προερχόμενους από το χωριό Κουμσάλ». Για τα 150 αυτά άτομα οι ελληνοκυπριακές αρχές ανακοίνωναν στις οικογένειες τους για πολλά χρόνια ότι πρέπει να τους θεωρούν ‘αγνοούμενους’.

Άλλες σημαντικές επιθέσεις των Ελληνοκυπρίων ήταν οι επιθέσεις στον τουρκοκυπριακό θύλακα των Κοκκίνων- Μανσούρας (9/8/1964) και στα χωριά Μαθιάτι, Άγιος Βασίλειος και Κουμσάλ. Στο τελευταίο, οι Ελληνοκύπριοι παρακρατικοί εκτέλεσαν εν ψυχρώ 150 άτομα. Η πιο ανατριχιαστική δε φωτογραφία, που έκανε το γύρο του κόσμου, ήταν αυτή που παρουσίαζε τρία μικρά παιδιά μαζί με την μητέρα τους σκοτωμένα μέσα σε μια λίμνη αίματος στην μπανιέρα του σπιτιού τους. Ακόμα, Ελληνοκύπριοι παρακρατικοί απομάκρυναν βίαια από την χειρουργική κλινική του νοσοκομείου της Λευκωσίας 22 Τουρκοκύπριους ασθενείς, τα ίχνη των οποίων εξαφανίσθηκαν δια παντός. Η έκθεση του ΟΗΕ καταγράφει 43 Ελληνοκύπριους και 232 Τουρκοκύπριους ‘αγνοούμενους’ την περίοδο 21/12/1963 μέχρι 8/6/1964.

Οι επιθέσεις τερματίστηκαν όταν, τον Δεκέμβριο του 1964, ο ΟΗΕ δημιούργησε «θύλακες» στους οποίους έζησαν οι Τουρκοκύπριοι πρόσφυγες κάτω από άθλιες συνθήκες για δέκα ολόκληρα χρόνια. Η κυβέρνηση του Μακάριου, εκτός από το οικονομικό εμπάργκο που επέβαλε στους θύλακες, απαγόρευσε και την προμήθεια στρατηγικών αγαθών, όπως τσιμέντο, τρακτέρ, ανδρικές κάλτσες, μάλλινα ρούχα, κ.λ.π.

Μετά την επιβολή της δικτατορίας στην Ελλάδα, στις 15/11/1967, ελληνικές και ελληνοκυπριακές δυνάμεις επετέθησαν εναντίον των Τουρκοκυπρίων στα χωριά Άγιος Θεόδωρος και Κοφινού, όπου σκότωσαν 27. Το γεγονός επιβεβαίωσε στις 21/2/1986 στην ελληνική Βουλή και ο Ανδρέας Παπανδρέου, προσθέτοντας: «Η επιχείρηση διετάχθη από το αρχηγείο των Ελληνικών Ενόπλων Δυνάμεων… έγιναν σφαγές και λεηλασίες».

Την ύπαρξη προμελετημένου σχεδίου του Μακάριου για την εξόντωση των Τουρκοκυπρίων επιβεβαιώνει έμμεσα και το ΑΚΕΛ, δημοσιεύοντας (Ιούλιος 1979) τα ακόλουθα: «Ο κ. Λυσσαρίδης… με τον οπλισμό που του έδωσε ο Μακάριος σχημάτισε τις δικές του ένοπλες ομάδες, οι οποίες μαζί με τις ομάδες του Γιωρκάτζη και του Σαμψών διεξήγαγαν, το 1963-1964 ‘απελευθερωτικό αγώνα’ εναντίον των Τουρκοκυπρίων με αποτέλεσμα να μας φέρουν την ‘πράσινη γραμμή’ και τελικά τον Αττίλα».


Οι χειρότεροι λοιπόν εχθροί του έθνους απεδείχθησαν οι ακραίοι εθνικιστές. Το γνωρίζουμε από την ελληνική ιστορία, αλλά ο Πάσχος Μανδραβέλης μας θύμισε τη Συνθήκη του Όσλο μεταξύ Ισραηλινών και Παλαιστινίων. Τότε, οι ακραίοι των δυο πλευρών συνεργάστηκαν για την επιβολή του ΟΧΙ. Τον μεν «εθνοπροδότη» Ραμπίν τον δολοφόνησαν, ο δε Αραφάτ ενέδωσε στους δικούς του ακραίους. Ως αποτέλεσμα, σήμερα ρέει το αίμα αμάχων και των δυο πλευρών και προχθές οι ΗΠΑ δήλωσαν -για πρώτη φορά- ότι αποκλείεται η επιστροφή στα παλιά σύνορα. Μια χαμένη ευκαιρία. Στην Κύπρο, οι δυο ακραίοι πρόεδροι συνεργάζονται επίσης για το ΟΧΙ. Άλλη μια χαμένη ευκαιρία. Ήδη οι ΗΠΑ προέβησαν σε δηλώσεις…

http://www.sitemaker.gr/fakyris/assets/ ... thines.doc

[boomerang]

bir you really need a greek to tell you this?...pres x acknowledged this already...the question is bir where is talat?

[BirKibrisli]

BirKibrisli wrote:

No ,Mikkie...you have to understand the fears of the TCs first...Because you were the majority,the stronger partner back in the Republic and you conspired first to disposess the TCs of their rights and was the primary factor in driving them into the enclaves...

Here we go again! 'You started it first so you should do this or that first...' etc etc! This is playground arguments Bir! The TC's want to have 'equality' in Cyprus too Bir so act as such and take responsibility for your own actions too. If I take your line then I will sit here and say to you that it was the Turks that started the first intercommunal clashes in Cyprus and they were the first to commit ethnic cleansing (of Omorfita district of Nicosis) in the 1950's. But I don't. I fully accept that we GC's have done immeasurable wrong to the TC community and quite a few of our politicians, Christofias included, have also apologised for past actions against the TC's. Do we hear anything similar from prominent TC politicians?

Mikki,read carefully what I said...I am talking about the period we were supposed to be partners in a Republic... This is the crucial time,this is what led to everything else inludung the 1974 events...Before the ink was dry Makarios,Yorgadjis,Lisserides et al were conspiring to sideline the TCs...We are talking about a president and an interior minister,not some EOKA or TMT thug...You can't equate this with the paramilitary activities of those said organisations..I am harping on about this because most GC here want to start the calender in July,1974...It is great that you accept the GCs have done "immesurable wrongs",but most here are in denial,even when we talk about our personal experiences we are accused of lying or exaggerating...How would you feel if you were (say) sexually abused as a child and you told people who did not believe you,accused you of lying and exaggerating????
You people ought to realise by now,the TC politicians do not have the liberty of the officially recognised RoC government leaders or politicians..Their hands are tied behind their backs...And their mouths are taped...need I say more?

BirKibrisli wrote:

You might want to blame eveything on the TMT,but it wasn't the TMT who slaughtered the inhabitants of 3 villages (Murataga,Atlilar,Sandallar) in 63/64 troubles...

I am now rapidly loosing respect for you Bir, because now you are talking complete rubbish. The above events actually occured in 1974, after the Turkish army invaded and after the Turks started pillaging the north and killing civilians left right and centre. So you need to take these things into their proper chronological context. What happened in those 3 villages in 1974 is digraceful. The perpertrators should be arrested and tried for these crimes and it is shameful that these people have not been made accountable for their actions.

However, you do have to accept that the TMT did its own fair share of terrible things to BOTH communities. But I guess thats ok in your eyes because it was all because of Enosis.

So I made a mistake...Those massacred happened in 1974...does that make it all right??? Mikki,it has been a long time since I have left Cyprus...41 years to be exact...For years I did not even allow myself to think about my past. It was too traumatic..There are thousands of names,places,incidents,dates in my head...I am bound to get some dates wrong...But in 1963/64 there was Cyprus wide organised attacks on TCs,and hundreds of people were killed...There was a massacre in Ayvasil( Ayios vasilios),killings in Kumsal (is that Omorfita in Greek?),Kuchuk Kaymakli,and other attrocities all over the island...If you doubt my word have a look at this:

http://www.yellowdocuments.com/18244707 ... istence-of

Of course I know what TMT's role was...I spend my first years on this Forum talking about the wrongs of TCs,Mikkie...Do me a favour and read some of my posts from when I started...I was merciless on my own people...But I now realise all I was doing was reinforcing the GC belief that they were whiter than white...That it was all the TCs fault...They simply wanted Taksim and they follow Denktas blindly into the enclaves to open the way of the Turkish invasion 11 years later...Do you believe that too...??? That the 103 villages and 30,000 people just got up and left their ancestral homes in 63/64 period to please Denktas??? The TMT had no chance of influencing anyone to do anything if it wasn't for those indiscriminate attacks and killings in 1963...Your Makarios and Yorgadjis and Lissarides put the fear of death into the TCs...If you don't accept this there is little point discussing anything with you...

I will wait to hear your response to this before I waste any more of my time replying to yet another closed minded,prejudiced and biased GC...

[BirKibrisli]

bir you really need a greek to tell you this?...pres x acknowledged this already...the question is bir where is talat?

No,I don't need a Greek to tell me this...But you and most of the GCs here do...You will dismiss anything and everything as lies and exaggerations if it comes from Turkish sources..Even people's personal experiences are brushed aside...

Talat is where he always is...Dangling at the end of Turkey's puppet strings...Don't expect too much from him...I feel sorry for him in fact,he is a decent man trying to do an impossible job...I wouldn't be surprised if he does not even run in the Presidential elections in April...

[boomerang]

bir you really need a greek to tell you this?...pres x acknowledged this already...the question is bir where is talat?

No,I don't need a Greek to tell me this...But you and most of the GCs here do...You will dismiss anything and everything as lies and exaggerations if it comes from Turkish sources..Even people's personal experiences are brushed aside...

Talat is where he always is...Dangling at the end of Turkey's puppet strings...Don't expect too much from him...I feel sorry for him in fact,he is a decent man trying to do an impossible job...I wouldn't be surprised if he does not even run in the Presidential elections in April...

...your drama queen antics ain't gonna wash me mate...

this what i say and i fully stand behind...

let me say this...you will never fiind out about the truth...it has to come within...every report is a one way stream...the truth and the re-writing of events will only come from a reconciliation committee and for that to happen you need democracy, human rights and the rule of law...ensuring justice for all...

but again, a fascist doesn't know what he is talking about, hey bir?....

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/posting.php?mode=quote&p=546098

what the above says and you fail to see is, the difference between my views and your views is you are looking at the tree while i am looking at the forrest...got it?

and don't give me lip...it worked for south africa and a number of other countries...

regarding balless talat...you want a solution with a band aid while the wound needs stitching....this will lead to amputation...

if talat had any balls he should resign in disgust and tell the world why...then i would also feel for him...but as it stands he is a ballless wonder putting other interests infront rather the ones of his own people...hey bir no pain no gain...

but that's alright keep making excuses and then whine at people not unifying, while one day you and i will be reading about a group of people that USED to reside in cyprus...

but that's ok...in your eyes i am a fascist......

oh nice to see you quoting what i say by the way...

ps...in the mean time keep on supporting the fascist regime...you are doing a huge service to your community...

[BirKibrisli]

bir you really need a greek to tell you this?...pres x acknowledged this already...the question is bir where is talat?

No,I don't need a Greek to tell me this...But you and most of the GCs here do...You will dismiss anything and everything as lies and exaggerations if it comes from Turkish sources..Even people's personal experiences are brushed aside...

Talat is where he always is...Dangling at the end of Turkey's puppet strings...Don't expect too much from him...I feel sorry for him in fact,he is a decent man trying to do an impossible job...I wouldn't be surprised if he does not even run in the Presidential elections in April...

...your drama queen antics ain't gonna wash me mate...

this what i say and i fully stand behind...

let me say this...you will never fiind out about the truth...it has to come within...every report is a one way stream...the truth and the re-writing of events will only come from a reconciliation committee and for that to happen you need democracy, human rights and the rule of law...ensuring justice for all...

but again, a fascist doesn't know what he is talking about, hey bir?....

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/posting.php?mode=quote&p=546098

what the above says and you fail to see is, the difference between my views and your views is you are looking at the tree while i am looking at the forrest...got it?

and don't give me lip...it worked for south africa and a number of other countries...

regarding balless talat...you want a solution with a band aid while the wound needs stitching....this will lead to amputation...

if talat had any balls he should resign in disgust and tell the world why...then i would also feel for him...but as it stands he is a ballless wonder putting other interests infront rather the ones of his own people...hey bir no pain no gain...

but that's alright keep making excuses and then whine at people not unifying, while one day you and i will be reading about a group of people that USED to reside in cyprus...

but that's ok...in your eyes i am a fascist......

oh nice to see you quoting what i say by the way...

ps...in the mean time keep on supporting the fascist regime...you are doing a huge service to your community...

What are you on, boomers...I wouldn't mind some of that...
You are all over the place...I will make it simple for you to concentrate:

1. Which part of my question above you considered to be "drama queen antics"?

2.You are not looking at the forest,don't kid yourself...You have turned your back on it,and you are looking at the GC nationalist propaganda writing in the sky...Why,you probably think Piratis is right in everything he says,right???

3...You might not be a fascist,but you use their tactics to silence your opponents...There is one truth for you,and anybody who disagrees have to be silenced by insults and intimidation...Sorry,but those are fascist tactics,mate..

4.I have been talking about the need for a Truth and Reconciliation Commission for years now...Why hasn't the legitimate,recognised governemnt of the RoC established such a commission in all these years? What are they afraid of?

5...Talat is doing his best in impossible conditions,give him some slack...

Now try to respond to these one by one and in that order please...Then I will know what you are on...