Kikapu wrote:BirKibrisli wrote:Kikapu wrote:
@Bir,
When you put the core reason as to why the problems in 1963 and beyond started were only because of the dream of Enosis starting even before the British gave the island back to it's people, it does not make it so, as being the only culprit 100%. Blaming Enosis as the sole reason why Turkey was forced to come and take territory against her best wishes despite Enosis not being the NATIONAL CAUSE for the GCs after 1968 is hard to believe that Turkey did not have interests in expanding her territories, because what you are saying is, once the Enosis dream was created, from then on anything Turkey did was justifiable no matter if the Enosis dream did end in 1968. You are saying Enosis dream can be the blame and was the "core cause" no matter if the GCs no longer supported it, specially in 1974 since it was the Junta from Greece that initiated the coup and not the regular GCs, but only the GC fanatics. By doing so, are you then not opening the doors for Piratis to come and say to us once again, god forbid, that had the Ottomans not come to Cyprus back in 1571, there would not have been a need for Enosis, therefore "Turkey" can be blamed for everything as being the "core" reason for the Cyprus problems starting back in 1571. So lets be careful not to start and end everything with Enosis as being the core reason for everything going wrong in Cyprus, specially when the National Cause was no longer Enosis after 1968, in 1974 or in 2010. Taksim on the other hand has never stopped being, even if it was a reactionary movement to Enosis back then. What is the excuse for Taksim being after 1968, 1974 and in 2010.? Here is a simple equation Bir.
Turkey's territorial ambitions = Taksim
Taksim = Turkey's territorial ambitions
you cannot not have one without the other, is the reason why Taksim has never seized to exists from 1950's to present..
Kikapu,
I can only repeat myself...You are making a big mistake if you think Enosis was like a candle or a tap that any one person could blow out or turn off with one single action,at one single point in time...Even if that person was Makarios...Sure he had stopped publicly advocating it,but that does not mean the average GC in 1968 had stopped dreaming of it..The coming to power of the fascist Junta in Greece would have put a damper on things,but the GCs and certainly Makarios never gave up his Enosis related dream of dominating and ruling the TCs politically,socially and culturally....What do you think EOKA B was all about...?A democratic movement to advance the human rights of all Cypriots???From the moment Makarios stopped talking about Enosis EOKA B kicked into life,and their struggle for Enosis took on another journey which culminated in the coup against Makarios...and you seem to have forgotten about Papadopoulos...This man who was one of the leaders of the Eoka movement,and who together with Makarios and Yorgadjis hatched the Akritas plan to sideline,dominate and rule the lives of the TCs was President of Cyprus only a few short years ago...does that suggest to you that the average GC had given up on the EOKA and the dream of Enosis...? No,Kikapu,the dream of Enosis lived on in peoples hearts and found a practical expression in 1963 when they wrestled power from the TCs...And notice how they have refused to give it back ever since...Do you really believe that the sole reason there hasn't been an agreed solution to date was Denktas? I have another simple formula for you...
GC nationalist ambition to rule over the TCs = Taksim
Taksim = GC nationalist ambition to rule over the TCs
This equation is also in operation as we speak...so I can easily say "at the CORE of Cyprus Problem lies the GC nationalist ambition to dominate and rule the TCs....
ps Piratis is right of course...Had 1571 never happened there wouldn't be a Cyprus problem today..Or at least we wouldn't be involved in it...I sincerely wish that was the case...But it isnt...We have been in Cyprus since 1571 (Much earlier than the British came to Australia in 1788!) and we are still here...The TCs are double victims....We are the victims of the Ottoman expansion and we are the victims of GC nationalism/Hellenism ideology...spare a thought for us while elevating Turkey's territorial ambitions to the CORE of Cyprob,hence making sure we will never find a solution, as you let the GC nationalists off the hook very lightly indeed...
First of all, I'm not excusing anyone Bir, when it comes to the Cyprus problem and I'm not saying the problems in Cyprus were because of Turkey's territorial ambitions was the core cause. Lets stay with your original question and not add to it. You started asking me a question as to whether the core cause of the Cyprus problems was Turkey's territorial ambitions. This is what I'm responding to, and giving what has happened in the past and what is happening today, it is impossible to come to any other conclusion but to say Taksim and Turkey's territorial ambitions are one and the same regardless of which came first, Enosis or Taksim, but what you are saying is, the moment the Enosis dream was hatched back when, Turkey had the right to take part of Cyprus, and in order for her to do that, Taksim had to be alive and well. You are putting all the blame on Enosis dream as a justification to Turkey's actions today. This is what I'm talking about. Of course there are going to be fanatics who support Enosis back in 1968 and even today today, but lets separate them from the majority of GCs who does not support Enosis any longer, even back in 1974. My god, there are neo Nazi groups still in Germany who hate the foreigners today and here's still the KKK headquarters in the state Expat lives in Arkansas, also today.
You cannot eradicate some peoples wishful thinking, but that does not make it the national cause to hate foreigners in Germany or have a National cause against blacks in the USA, or a National cause for Enosis in 1974 or today in 2010, in Cyprus. If Turkey had /has no intention of having any territorial ambitions in Cyprus, why is she holding onto the north today. That was never part of her responsibilities an a guarantor power, so you see Bir, it is very hard to defend the argument that Turkey never had territorial ambitions had it not been for the GCs Enosis dream. These are reasons why the GCs do not want Turkey in Cyprus or as a guarantor power in the future. Dividing the island was against the mission they had signed up for, along with Greece and Britain. Today Greece and Britain are willing to let go their guarantor powers, but Turkey is not willing to do the same. You can believe that Enosis was the core cause for Turkey's actions in Cyprus since 1960, but Enosis dream came and went, where as Taksim dream is alive and well, because the moment the Taksim dream is also dead, so will the occupation of the north by Turkey. I don't know how else to put it to you.
You mentioned EOKA, but lets separate EOKA-A from EOKA-B, because just by saying "EOKA", you are implying it is the same group. You are saying that "EOKA" was taking over from Makarios's dream for Enosis after 1968, but from all the reports written, it appears that no harm had come to the TCs from any GC groups after 1968, so there was a sense that Enosis was on it's way out. Of course the life for the TCs was not much better in the enclaves, but since Taksim was alive, why would their leaders or Turkey make life any better for the TCs by finding a solution for the problems back in 1968 and beyond until 1974. But if Taksim was alive, then so must have been Turkey's territorial ambitions. You cannot ignore this connection because they are one and the same. Had Taksim also died in 1968, then just perhaps a solution could have been found and the TCs could have been out of the enclaves soon afterwards. Of course this was not going to make up what happened to them since 1963, but they could have saves further 6 years of hardship.
Now, as for Piratis's comments on 2 states becoming 1 state is something I warned VP about when we were discussing my BBF plan. What Piratis was saying because I read that conversation between he and Bananiot, was, if there was a "normal" Federation on the present size of the divide north and south, the GCs will be a majority in both the states because everyone would have the right to return back to their land. That is absolutely true. These two majorities in each state will then be able to form a ONE state and become a unitary state. This is what I warned VP about, that the north needs to give back 50% of the north back to the GCs to become part of the south state, so that the north can maintain the overwhelming TC majority so that the two states cannot be able to vote to become a unitary state, unless of course, the TCs also took part in making that decision to become a unitary state and do away with the Federation. But the bottom line is, of course the GCs would like to have a unitary state over a 2 state Federal one, but this is the compromise that they have made including the rotating presidency. I have shown you all how this can work for the TCs in a True Federation which the GCs have not liken the idea short of our good friend, DT, but it appears that what the north wants is not a workable True Federation with EU Principles, but for the Taksim to continue with a Confederation, much like the Annan Plan, which would also keep Turkey's territorial ambitions alive and well.!
Okey,Kikapu,we will have to agree to disagree on that point...
You will never get me to say at the CORE of cyprus problem lies Turkey's territorial ambitions..simply because it is not true...Turkey is occupying part of Cyprus as a RESULT of the Cyprus Problem...Turkey is not the CAUSE of it...
It is simply an intellectually and morally corrupt exercise to try to reduce the core of the problem to Turkey's territorial ambitions...If you want to take out of the equation, Enosis and the EOKA and the 63/64 bloody events,the highjacking of the RoC government,and the 63-74 plight of the TCs and the EOKA B and the coup which installed Sampson, a selfdeclared enemy of the TCs as President, and leave Turkey's territorial ambitions as equal to Taksim,be my guest...I can't stop you,mate...But I can tell you that by reinforcing the GC nationalist propaganda line you are making yourself part of the problem,and not part of the solution...As long as the GCs keep believing that they did nothing wrong,and it is all the fault of the bloodyminded ,expansionist Turks and their TC collaborators,we will not have peace on the island...If we don't have peace we will inevitably have war again...That will mean more bitterness and hatred to go around for another 100 years...
