denizaksulu wrote:Kikapu wrote:
Bir, there is no argument from anyone as to which came first, Enosis dream or the Taksim dream. It was Enosis. What you need to focus on however, which is what I did just because you have asked me to do so, was to focus on the period when the troubles started, which was in 1963. Your question was, if I understood it 100%, "was the CORE of the Cyprus problem was a desire by Turkey to expand her territories?", and since Enosis and Taksim were running neck n' neck in 1963, even if Taksim dream was a late starter in 1958 or even earlier, in 1963 they were "Dead Heat", so, at this point as to which came first is totally irrelevant. It is this period of 1963 and beyond we are talking about. But in order to get to 1963 troubles, there had to be a failure in the system in running the country to create the failure, and that "vehicle" was the unworkable 1960 Constitution to assist Greece and Turkey in getting double Enosis-Taksim while Britain sat back safely on her bases in Cyprus. But Bir, what you are saying in a round about way is, that since Enosis dream came first before Taksim, then it is a "YES", that Turkey did have territorial ambitions. This is what your above argument would lead someone to believe and accept.
Now, Bir, if Taksim was alive in 1958, and you agreed with me that Taksim could not have been achieved without Turkey, and knowing that getting Enosis and Taksim was going to be bloody, then is it not safe to surmise that in order for Turkey to assist Taksim to be realised, they would have had to take some territory, or else there is no Taksim. The only way you can excuse Turkey for not having territorial interests in Cyprus ever would have been in two ways,
1. Taksim was never the dream of the TCs, therefore Turkey was acting only as a Guarantor for the safety of all Cypriots and never had any territorial ambitions in Cyprus
or
2. Only Enosis was alive and Turkey had to come in to save the TCs from bloody mess in the event there was an attempt to have Enosis, then take some land for the TCs to be safe from Enosis.
But we all know, that Taksim was alive and well from 1958 and beyond, therefore, so was Turkey's territorial ambitions because they are one and the same. You can’t have one without the other. I gave you the article that Bananiot posted, stating that in 1968 Makarios was no longer was interested in Enosis, but Taksim kept on going. If Turkey was able to come in 1964 when Enosis was alive and well, then there could be some justification made to take some territory to safeguard the TCs, at least until they put the government back together again, but by 1974, Enosis was dead as a national cause for the GCs but Taksim was alive. It is these dots you need to connect, unless you are saying, that since Enosis dream started first, then from then on, Turkey cannot be blamed in taking part of Cyprus also regardless if Enosis dream ended way before 1974, in 1968. As long as Taksim was alive, as it is still today, it can still only be achieved with Turkey help, and that's exactly what has been happening since 1974. If Turkey withdrew today, the “trnc” won’t last more than 5 minutes, and if territory was not her intent, why keep Verosa locked up all these years, other than use it to make a partition deal.
One must be also careful when we use the term “Turkey” this and “Turkey” that as far as she having any territorial ambitions in Cyprus, because what we should really be saying is, the Turkish Military who had/has run it’s affairs without the control of the civilian government in Turkey for decades, specially in the 60’s and 70’s, whom have a much better relationship with Denktash than they had with their own civil government, which had very little power over the military in Turkey or even in Cyprus..!
Hi Kikapu;
As usual I enjoy reading a proper debate by the masters of debate on the TC side. (a very rare occurence, if I may say so).
One point I differ from you is that you say Enosis was dead by 1974. The coup failed only because of the Turkish Intervention/Invasion - FACT. What we will never know, without the Turkish Army, would the coup have succeeded and then ENOSIS occur? Whateever our GC frends say about this is irrelevant. What is relevant now is the presence of the Turkish Army as an occupying power. They have overstayed and misused their 'guarantor powers'. How can we expect our GC friends to trust Turkey ever again?
Hi Deniz,
I'm glad you got a front seat and enjoying a civilized debate between Bir and myself, unlike VP who thinks we are trying to score points on each other. Idiot.!
Now Deniz, we all know about the 1974 coup by the Junta. I said very clearly, that "by 1974, Enosis was dead as a
national cause for the GCs but Taksim was alive." Sure there were Enosis Fanatics, but had the Junta did not caused the coup, they would not have been able to achieve Enosis without the help of Greece, just like the TCs would never have been able to achieve Taksim without Turkey. But then again,, we are not arguing about whether Turkey did right or wrong by coming to stop the Junta, which was her obligation. What we are debating is whether Turkey had interest on Cypriot territory, and the answer can only be a YES by many different factors, because in 1968 Enosis was no longer the National cause for the GCs, but Taksim was for the TCs and for Turkey, or else Turkey could have told the TCs to end Taksim also in 1968 and seek an agreement to get back into the government and the last 36 years is the proof in the pudding as they say.
The Junta in Greece was on it's last legs in 1974, so what better way for them to try one last attempt to grab Cyprus to boost their "popularity", which failed of course, thank god. But didn't the same thing happened in Argentina with their Junta who tried to grab the Falkland islands from the British in 1982 and they too failed and collapsed. It is a common occurrences with the Juntas it seems.
