Cyprus-Forum.com

[boulio]

In the Priest's mind Enosis was a dead dream after 1967. He also kind of liked it been the king of this little island,and was constantly accused by the fanatics for abandoning Enosis and caring only for his "throne". Imo the Priest was waiting for the time to heal everything. By 1972 Klerides (acting as the negotiator of Makarios) and Denktash HAVE AGREED TO ALMOST EVERYTHING, and they had a ready plan for the return of TCs to their villages and government positions/jobs etc. Unfortunately the Junta rejected the agreement... So for as long as Makartios was the President Enosis would be officially be dead

Your wrong here the junta encoureged for Makarios to agree to the 1968-1971 bicommunal talks,almost all of his 13 points were accepted in return for the t/c having more local autonomy and i believe the issue of sepeate municipalities.

[Pyrpolizer]

Words are not enough,MP...You have to show by your deeds that you truly understand and you are prepared to compromise to accomodate the TCs....If the GC accept a solution which will keep Turkey as a guarantor ,at least for an initial interim period,that will go a long way...

What long way my friend? You are just assuming things. Do you have any serious poll in mind telling you the majority of TCs want the Turkish army and Turkish Guarantees? Or you just base your views on what you hear from VP and other distorters of the truth in here?

I remember very well that after the Anan Plan there have been polls proving that the percentage of the TCs who would not accept anything but Turkish Guarantees was always less than those who were ready for alternative solutions or complete demilitarisation. Percentages I think were about 45-55%.

Among the GCs however the percentages were very much higher. Don't remember exactly but from memory it was about the same as per Anan Plan results 24-76%.

NB. I promise I will do my best to provide you links for those polls if you really want to have proof.

Sorry,Pyro...I wish the situation was as you say,but it is not...
I do not doubt your word...I am sure there are polls suggesting what you say...But you cannot trust these polls...It very much depends on what the question was,and how and where it was put to people...If people didn't want Turkey's guarantee you would have seen a lot of TCs moving to the South...I read extensively online and if anything the TC position is hardening...As i was afraid of,the recent Orams decision didn't help the matters...There are a lot of TCs living in GC houses(mostly children of the original TC refugees from the South) ,and they do not appreciate the threats being made about their freedom of movement in Europe...Things do not look good for a solution ,mate...I do hope I am proven wrong...

Bir if this is the point on which you base your reasoning, which implies the majority of TCs are afraid of living among the GCs, and their majority wants Turkey's guarantees no matter what, then I tell you this:

It is the GCs who don't want the Tcs to return to south, not the other way round. There are political reasons for that, one of them being that they want them to guard their properties from the settlers.

Suppose the Republic decides to apply a policy for the Turkish Cypriots to return south, I GUARANTEE YOU THERE WON'T BE NOT EVEN ONE TC STAYING IN THE NORTH.

I am afraid you are fully mistaken in your reasoning.

Jesus just see the question they've asked Erdogan in the past. Even they themselves were afraid the TCs would all move South after the opening of the gates.[/u]

[boulio]

Can Bir or for that matter any T/C Tell us what comprimises the t/c and turkey have made?ANd giving back 9% of land and removing troops to the 1960 level of 650 is not a comprimise because the:

a)the land was not yours to begin with
b)turkey is obligated to be at the 1960 levels.

THanks really like to hear back from you.

[denizaksulu]

Hi Kikapu;

As usual I enjoy reading a proper debate by the masters of debate on the TC side. (a very rare occurence, if I may say so).
One point I differ from you is that you say Enosis was dead by 1974. The coup failed only because of the Turkish Intervention/Invasion - FACT. What we will never know, without the Turkish Army, would the coup have succeeded and then ENOSIS occur? Whateever our GC frends say about this is irrelevant. What is relevant now is the presence of the Turkish Army as an occupying power. They have overstayed and misused their 'guarantor powers'. How can we expect our GC friends to trust Turkey ever again?

In the Priest's mind Enosis was a dead dream after 1967. He also kind of liked it been the king of this little island,and was constantly accused by the fanatics for abandoning Enosis and caring only for his "throne". Imo the Priest was waiting for the time to heal everything. By 1972 Klerides (acting as the negotiator of Makarios) and Denktash HAVE AGREED TO ALMOST EVERYTHING, and they had a ready plan for the return of TCs to their villages and government positions/jobs etc. Unfortunately the Junta rejected the agreement... So for as long as Makartios was the President Enosis would be officially be dead.

However it was not dead among the fanatics, that's why they organized the coup. To overthrow Makarios who was not for Enosis anymore and put there someone else who was.The group was not organized by the Greek Junta alone, so regardless of whether the Junta would fall or not, the local GC fanatics who btw had full control of the National guard would proceed as planned.

Certainly the prevailing of the coupists who were all fanatics constituted a danger for the TCs. However until the day Turkey invaded not even one TC was hurt so the FACTUAL evidence that Turkey invaded to save the lives of TCs is missing until today.

What Turkey has done in 1974 however proved beyond any doubt that from as early as 1963 she had only one target: To take a portion of Cyprus. That would serve both the safety of the TCs and provide benefits to her as well (territorial expansion, safety for her south belly, etc )

The Turkish Cypriots were always used by Turkey for her own interests. May I remind you of what Erdogan said after they were forced to open the borders.
-Prime Minister aren't you afraid that now all the Turkish Cypriots will go to the South?
-The Greeks can have as many Turks as they like.We can send them more if they like!

I never mentioned lives lost. Just the fear that the coupists were seeking ENOSIS.

Did he mean Turks - from Turkey? or TCs. More will flow to the RoC in due course(to live). Mark my word.

[Malapapa]

Words are not enough,MP...You have to show by your deeds that you truly understand and you are prepared to compromise to accomodate the TCs....If the GC accept a solution which will keep Turkey as a guarantor ,at least for an initial interim period,that will go a long way...

Turkey's army parked itself in Cyprus in 1974 - over many Cypriots' dead bodies.

I expect free Cypriots today would be prepared to give this unpunished criminal security force the right to continue to intervene in Cyprus over their dead bodies.

Compromise. Offer other ideas for security that might allay TC fears because continuing to insist this can only be achieved with Turkey's army, is madness.

What? over their dead body you say, well don't tempt fate.

What a crass thing to say. Sometimes you go beyond the pale.

[Malapapa]

Words are not enough,MP...You have to show by your deeds that you truly understand and you are prepared to compromise to accomodate the TCs....If the GC accept a solution which will keep Turkey as a guarantor ,at least for an initial interim period,that will go a long way...

Turkey's army parked itself in Cyprus in 1974 - over many Cypriots' dead bodies.

I expect free Cypriots today would be prepared to give this unpunished criminal security force the right to continue to intervene in Cyprus over their dead bodies.

Compromise. Offer other ideas for security that might allay TC fears because continuing to insist this can only be achieved with Turkey's army, is madness.

"When the eagles are silent,the parrots begin to jabber"

[Pyrpolizer]

I just took part of your reply to comment Deniz. I don't disagree with you.

He meant TCs. The same way he meant GCs when said "Greeks".

[Pyrpolizer]

In the Priest's mind Enosis was a dead dream after 1967. He also kind of liked it been the king of this little island,and was constantly accused by the fanatics for abandoning Enosis and caring only for his "throne". Imo the Priest was waiting for the time to heal everything. By 1972 Klerides (acting as the negotiator of Makarios) and Denktash HAVE AGREED TO ALMOST EVERYTHING, and they had a ready plan for the return of TCs to their villages and government positions/jobs etc. Unfortunately the Junta rejected the agreement... So for as long as Makartios was the President Enosis would be officially be dead

Your wrong here the junta encoureged for Makarios to agree to the 1968-1971 bicommunal talks,almost all of his 13 points were accepted in return for the t/c having more local autonomy and i believe the issue of sepeate municipalities.

You are right!!!

Mr Glafcos Clerides, who was one of the architects of and active participants in this plan, as stated by General Karayiannis in the above-quoted statement, confessed in his memoirs, Cyprus: My Deposition (Vol. II), that there never was an intention of cherishing a partnership state. He used the following words:

"Turkish Cypriots made so many concessions in 1971 that they made possible the settlement of the Cyprus question. The fact that it was Makarios himself who caused us to miss this great opportunity we had gained in 1972 is proved by the documents exchanged between the Governments of Cyprus and Greece at the time. I admit that I made a mistake by keeping silent at that time. When one writes history he has to refer to the past mistakes. Thus, for this reason, lamina position to state that it was Makarios who was responsible for the loss of this opportunity and it was he who made this mistake. Our rejection of even a certain autonomy to be given to the Turkish Cypriots and our ignorance of the recommendations of the Greek Government to the effect that we recognise it and our stating that we accepted it as a form of a veiled federation can be understood in the documents exchanged between the Governments of Cyprus and Greece "4

Then this raises further questions as to what would possibly follow after the coup

[boulio]

you must also realize that there were two juntas in Greece.the 1967-1973 junta(papadopoulos)and the 1974(ionnides)two different personaliites and ways of thinking.

[Get Real!]

"When the eagles are silent,the parrots begin to jabber"

He’s talking about the only time he can squeeze in a post…