Kikapu wrote:Bir, there is no argument from anyone as to which came first, Enosis dream or the Taksim dream. It was Enosis. What you need to focus on however, which is what I did just because you have asked me to do so, was to focus on the period when the troubles started, which was in 1963. Your question was, if I understood it 100%, "was the CORE of the Cyprus problem was a desire by Turkey to expand her territories?", and since Enosis and Taksim were running neck n' neck in 1963, even if Taksim dream was a late starter in 1958 or even earlier, in 1963 they were "Dead Heat", so, at this point as to which came first is totally irrelevant. It is this period of 1963 and beyond we are talking about. But in order to get to 1963 troubles, there had to be a failure in the system in running the country to create the failure, and that "vehicle" was the unworkable 1960 Constitution to assist Greece and Turkey in getting double Enosis-Taksim while Britain sat back safely on her bases in Cyprus.
sorry I must've mislead you ,KIkapu...But I did use the word WAS,"Was the CORE of the Cyprus problem...bla bla"...I thought it was obvious I was looking at the overall picture...Enosis came first ,yes,then Taksim was invented to counter it,and THEN came the invasion/intervention...
I am sorry,but I don't see how it is irrelevant what came first...Without Enosis there would've been no Taksim idea,without Taksim idea there would have been no invasion or occupation...Taksim was not invented to advance Turkey's territorial ambitions...Taksim was supposed to counter the gifting of the whole of Cyprus to Greece...Taksim continued because there was no other option..Once the trigger was pulled,once EOKA put the fear of death into the TCs (with British help of course) there was no going back...And Makarios was not inviting then TCs to return anyway...He was encouraging us to emmigrate...You make it sound as if the whole world conspired to help Turkey achieve her expansionist plans...Using your argument we can say that at the CORE of Cyprus problem sits British and American geopolitical ambitions at the time...They encouraged the GCs to go for Enosis,then encouraged TCs to go for Taksim,then concocted the 1960 agreements to pave the way for Turkey to invade...So where does Turkey's terrtorial expansionism come into the picture here? Way down on the list of core reasons for our little problem,NO?
Kikapu wrote:Now, Bir, if Taksim was alive in 1958, and you agreed with me that Taksim could not have been achieved without Turkey, and knowing that getting Enosis and Taksim was going to be bloody, then is it not safe to surmise that in order for Turkey to assist Taksim to be realised, they would have had to take some territory, or else there is no Taksim. The only way you can excuse Turkey for not having territorial interests in Cyprus ever would have been in two ways,
1. Taksim was never the dream of the TCs, therefore Turkey was acting only as a Guarantor for the safety of all Cypriots and never had any territorial ambitions in Cyprus
or
2. Only Enosis was alive and Turkey had to come in to save the TCs from bloody mess in the event there was an attempt to have Enosis, then take some land for the TCs to be safe from Enosis.
I am sorry,Kikapu,but however hard I try I cannot follow your logic...You seem to be putting the cart before the horse here...
If there was no Enosis there would be no Taksim...If there was no Taksim there would be no invasion...So at the CORE of the Cyprus problem lie Enosis ...Turkey's territorial ambitions are beside the point...
Turkey showed no interest in Cyprus or the TCs till the British and the USA convinced them it was a good idea...I have written about this at length elsewhere..I will dig it up if I can and repost it...We are talking about causes and effects here...Action and reaction..Turkey's invasion/intervention was a direct reaction to the Greek Colonel inspired coup against Makarios...Which was a reaction to Makarios's getting pally pally with the Soviets...which was a reaction to the Colonels coming to power in Greece...which was a reaction to...America's meddling in other countries affairs...which was a reaction to.................
But we all know, that Taksim was alive and well from 1958 and beyond, therefore, so was Turkey's territorial ambitions because they are one and the same. You can’t have one without the other. I gave you the article that Bananiot posted, stating that in 1968 Makarios was no longer was interested in Enosis, but Taksim kept on going. If Turkey was able to come in 1964 when Enosis was alive and well, then there could be some justification made to take some territory to safeguard the TCs, at least until they put the government back together again, but by 1974, Enosis was dead as a national cause for the GCs but Taksim was alive. It is these dots you need to connect, unless you are saying, that since Enosis dream started first, then from then on, Turkey cannot be blamed in taking part of Cyprus also regardless if Enosis dream ended way before 1974, in 1968. As long as Taksim was alive, as it is still today, it can still only be achieved with Turkey help, and that's exactly what has been happening since 1974. If Turkey withdrew today, the “trnc” won’t last more than 5 minutes, and if territory was not her intent, why keep Verosa locked up all these years, other than use it to make a partition deal.
You are talking about Enosis as if it was/is a candle,Kikapu...Now it is lit and now it is not...You cannot talk about Enosis being alive in 1967 and dead in 1968....Nationalist causes do not work like that...In 74 the Enosis candle might have been burning less brightly,but greece had an answer to that.. And the answer was a coup d'etat against Makarios...Why do you think that coup happened? What were they trying to achieve by putting a convicted murderer like Sampson in charge? Were they too trying to satisfy Turkey's territorial ambitions? Even if Turkey did have territorial ambitions,they could not do anything about it without a legitimate excuse...Even if we agree that Turkey's primary motive was not the well being of the TCs,we cannot possiblly say that the CORE reason of the whole Cyprus conflict was Turkey's expansionism...That would be rewritting history,Kikapu...And there are enough people here trying to do that without our help!...
