Kikapu wrote:BirKibrisli wrote:1...do you believe the core of the Cyprus problem was a desire by Turkey to expand her territories????
2...Do you think the TC climb into the enclaves in 1963 was simply to open the way for Turkish occupation??? They had no legitimate fears for their lives????
3...Would you consider the TC move into enclaves as "ethnic cleansing"?
Or does that only apply to the GC expulsion from the North???
Let us get your honest opinion on these points...You do not of course have to answer these questions....You can simply say it is none of my business...But ,please, don't side step them again and pretend to answer...
1. The last 36 years says "YES". Had they came and did what they were suppose to do and left, then the answer would be a "NO". While I was in Turkey last October, some Turks believed that Turkey should have taken all of Cyprus back in 1974. If it wasn't for expansion purposes, then there would not have been any need to expel GCs from the north if we were to overlook at her all other faulty. If the TCs were their major concerns to help them from the GCs, Turkey should have come in 1963 and to spared us the bad times from 1963-1974. I do not want to hear any excuses why Turkey did not come in 1963 because America did not let her, because then Turkey should have never become a Guarantor Power to Cyprus and particularly for the TCs, if she needed permission like a child needing a permission from her teacher to go to the bathroom. Turkey is part responsible for the sufferings of the TCs along with those seeking Enosis and Taksim. I'm sure that's not what you wanted to hear, but that's what happened.
2. Yes, the TCs did fear for their lives and it was also a very ideal way to try and bring most TCs together for that eventuality for Taksim by their leaders. Naturally Turkey would have loved to take part of Cyprus once the British left. After all, they had it for 300 years at one point, so what better way to take it back, if not in full, but in part by coming in to save the TCs from the GCs. Many variables played part once the 1960 constitution was signed. From then on, the race was on as to who was going to achieve Enosis or Taksim first, or for much better outcome, by having a double Enosis-Taksim with as little blood shed as possible. It appears that the extremist from the Enosis felt they deserved 100% and was their aim, but in 1968, Makarios had already given up on the whole idea for Enosis, but Taksim kept on going.
3. YES, it was ethnic cleansing, speaking from experience that we went through in Küçük Kaymakli. We were uprooted at the point of a gun, shipped to imprisonment, and then dropped off someplace in Nicosia which was not where our home was. I don't know the exact stories on how all the other TCs ended up in enclaves, but I'm sure they had somewhat similar experience, if not at the point of the gun from the GCs, but at the point of a gun from the TMT.!
BirKibrisli wrote:I think you got the meaning of my first question wrong,Kikapu...I was asking for your opinion of the "core" reason for the Cyprus problem...You gave me an analysis of your take on the events since 1974....I don't think you believe at the core of Cyprus conflict is Turkey's territorial ambitions...You might want to clarify your positon on that issue,or you might not..
Bir, let me make this reply very short and to the point to answer your question, which requires me to ask you a questions so that you can answer your own question.!
Now, the core problem for Cyprus crisis has to do with Enosis and Taksim, that much we can all agree with, I'm sure. Then comes the 1960 Constitution, then comes the interests of Greece, Turkey, Britain and couple of other countries in an indirect way. To find the answer to your own question, you will need to answer this following question as honestly as you can, which you will then get your answer. So, the question is;
"Could the TCs from 1958 on have been able to achieve Taksim on their own without the help of Turkey.????" For my answer to the above, the answer would be a "NO", which then it means, "YES", Turkey did have territorial ambitions, otherwise they would have prevented Taksim movement to get too far from 1958. Even when Makarios in 1968 declared Enosis was no longer the goal, Taksim was still on going, and today, it is still on going, so Bir, if we are to connect the dots, it is obvious that partition today could not have happened without Turkey's help no matter what Denktash tried to get one without Turkey, he simply would not have been able to do. The 1960 constitution was the "vehicle" that would assist Turkey in wanting to take part of Cyprus going back as early as 1963 when the problems started, just because the 1960 constitution was designed for it not to be a workable constitution, but the US prevented them. The GCs really didn't need Greece to help them achieve Enosis with them militarily due to their numbers over the TCs, but the TCs most certainly needed the help of Turkey, and they got it in 1974, 11 years after 1963 when they first wanted to come to achieve what they achieved in 1974. If we needed further evidence of the above, look what has happened in 1974 and since. To me it is very clear once you connect the dots.!
BirKibrisli wrote:This illustrates the dangers of ignoring a large part of our recent history,and beginning one's analysis from 1974....This is what most reactionary GC nationalists do on this forum..It does not suit them to think of all those bloody events which preceeded 1974...Anyway...I think we have probably exhausted ourselves and our arguments,for now.I still have no idea why you simply refuse to openly citicise our GC compatriots' role in the overall conflict..You will remain a puzzle...I cannot argue with your demands for full democracy and true federation etc,but I can tell you are being unrealistic,and simply reinforcing the rectionary GC nationalist beliefs,which in my opinion is the biggest obstacle to finding a solution...As dear Pyro keeps reminding us,this is only an on line forum,and even if we agreed to any solution here,including your own BBF proposals,nothing will change in reality...My belief is firm...As long as nothing is being done to address the emotional stress and trauma of both sides,Cypriots will remain deeply divided by mutual resentment,bitterness and distrust...This is not an ideal situation for talking about coming back together in any sort of arrangement...You have chosen your path on this forum,and I have chosen mine...I will not give any comfort to the reactionary GC nationalists here by putting the boot into my own people any more...I stand by everything I said in the past...I am the same person,just somewhat wised up by the overall treatment of my community on this forum...I will confront those reactionaries here whenever I see them,and I will use he same weapons they do,and return all the compliments in kind....It will not help foster understanding or trust,but hell,it will make me feel a lot better...
Bir, I know we have spent a lot of time in responding to each others posts and as this thread is also getting long, it is more difficult to keep up with it, but I will respond to most, if not all of your posts to me when I have time, because you do deserve an answer. You do not need to respond back however if you do not want to, but I think I need to, to clear up on some of your points that you have raised.!
