Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Oracle,my first few years here were spent talking about what the TCs did wrong...If you are that curious go and look at some of my earlier posts...
I believed that if both sides admitted to their mistakes that would precipitate goodwill,empathy,and respect...But when very little came back from your side,,and people started to think I thought only the TCs were at fault I had to stop and reconsider...In conflicts like this,it is never just one sides fault...You would do your side a lot of good if you admitted some of your mistakes...But you are just like that PR guy in the video...You are a spin doctor,twisting everything to show the GCs as whiter than white...You are unbelivable and incredible...If you could only realise that the one who shouts most and loudest is not necessarily right...In my eyes you are now laughing matter...

Bir, it is admirable that you have acknowledged wrongs done by the TCs in the past that brought about today's problems, but so has some GCs made the same, including Piratis, but the problem is, these acknowledgments are meaningless if it's only done by the people like us at the bottom end of the political spectrum when it is not done at the top leadership level. As I've stated before, Christofias has at least on one occasion, perhaps on two, did acknowledge the past mistakes done to the TCs by the GCs. Talat did not say anything. So, until the leaders starts talking about empathy and understanding of the other sides pain and suffering, which by the way, is still continues today by many Cypriots, what you are asking for will not become a reality. In any case, full recognition of those who have suffered in the past and presently by all Cypriots can only come once there is a settlement which would respect everyone's Democratic and Human Rights, because unless the above principles happen, not only there can never be a true peace, but there can never be true empathy and understanding since unfair advantages afforded to one side over the other will only ferment hate and revenge and not love and respect. This is why Annan Plan was not the answer for Cyprus and neither is any other loose Confederation, just because it will not offer peace in Cyprus, specially if the Turkish Army remains in Cyprus as the "Guardian Angels".

You know very well that the majority in the north wants partition as VP does, and since he has been labelled as the spokesman for the majority in the north, then lets take it as a given, that it is partition and not unification which is what they desire. True Federation denies them any possibility of a partition since under True Federation both the north and the south state will be "joined at the hip" but with a loose Confederation, Turkey will rule the whole island through the Confederate north as well as have influence in the EU, once again through the Confederate north. Not only that, each Confederate state will be able to issue citizenships to whom ever they like, which would mean the north state controlled by Turkey will be able to bring as many Turks to Cyprus and make them into "Cypriots" and EU citizens. The north's biggest industry would become the issuance of EU citizenships on the black market at premium price. Not only to the Turks from Turkey but to every person from anywhere in the world. The corrupted society that is already well established in the north today will just carry over into the Confederate state. The RoC will not agree to this nor will the EU.!

What a load of crap we come to expect this from you, can you please state things that GCs have done wrong to contribute to todays division, I have never read anything from you.

[BirKibrisli]

Bir, as a young man, I use to play a lot of chess with my self alone. No, I do not mean on a chess computer game, but on a regular board. I was able to play the black and the white pieces at the same time, which was very difficult to do, knowing what the other side's game plan was and try to counter it. I was able to shut myself off each time I played one side from the other. It took several days to weeks to finish the game. Well, I'm able to do the same thing here on the forum, because I do see the game that the GCs and TCs play on each other, just like that Chess board I played on many years ago. This might give you an insight on how I look at things here on the forum which means that I see things from both sides, but being a TC, I talk about things what I want for the TCs if they are really interested in a unified Cyprus and a better future for their children as well as criticize them too when warranted.

I can see where you are coming from,dear Kikapu,but life is not a chess game...In a chess game (and I've never learned chess,so correct me if I am wrong) there is always a winner and a loser...Perhaps you can draw as well,I don't know,but that means the game is never finished....
In life,especially life of a nation or a community,things are never black and white...To get along in life you must develop the ability to see and deal with all the shades life throws at you...

It is one thing to talk about what you want from the TCs in a united Cyprus,it is another thing to join those who see everything in black and white terms... And critices the TCs for seeing things in black and white as well...do you get my meaning? I am making myself clear?The GCs here with the notable exception of Bananiot and miltiades,see everything in black and white...They were right in demanding ENOSIS with Greece,the TCs were wrong to oppose it...The EOKA fighters were heros,the TCs who thought otherwise were wrong...Makarios was right to want to change the constitution,the TCs who opposed it were wrong...There was nothing wrong with the treatment of the TCs during 63-74 period,the TCs who say otherwise are liers and exaggerators....etc etc...You get my gist...

When you just keep criticising the TCs and fail to say anything at all about the senarios I painted above,you stop being an objective observer who sees both sides of the equation,and become one who sees things from one side only...I used to do this myself,for the same reasons you suggested elsewhere,and it took me some time to realise what I was doing...I was essentially siding with the GC nationalists and putting the boot into my own people...I was not being part of the solution,I was being part of the problem...I am sorry but that is how I consider your position now...

If I repeat myself, I apologise. At this point in time, there can be no systematic remorse, pity, empathy or understanding can be shown by either side as long as the war is going on. Can you give me any examples where parties or countries at war offer each other these companionate feelings. It would defeat the whole purpose of the war, don't you think. ? It is more like putting the cart before the horse, isn't it?. It just does not work that way. Despite this, wrong doings have been accepted by most on the forum of either side each side. What has it helped. Nothing, other than more abuse thrown at each other across the keyboards.

No,I think you are putting the cart before the horse...You are saying we can have PEACE first and then empathy and understanding etc....I insist it sould be the other way around...I go back to my couple analogy...This couple had a short marriage full off physical and emotional abuse from both sides...They have been apart now for a long time...Nothing has been done to deal with their age old problems,and heal the trauma...Now you are saying these people can come back together without counselling and other expert assistance,without showing any remorse or regret, and hope to have a new start and make it a success...Impossible dream...

The True Federation is where it's at, Bir. There is nothing wrong with the True Federation concept as it is practised in the US, Germany, Switzerland despite being a Confederation states and Australia. This is after all what BBF is meant to be, a Federation. This is what Denktash agreed to with Makarios, so whether the TCs will go for it or not, is besides the point, but I do not believe the GCs are going to accommodate the TCs by allowing Turkey supreme control over the island through some cockamamie phoney peace deal like the Annan Plan which was a loose Confederation which our good Friend Bananiot admitted it was a Confederation 4 years after 2004. A loose Confederation will only serve Turkey's interest and not the TCs and all our TC NeoPartitionists friends here on the forum are no longer interested serving the TC community but Turkey's, as the case was proven this week with Turkey's proposals in what they demanded for a settlement.

I have no problems with True Federation,if it could be achievable...In fact my position has not changed..I am for a Unitary state with full democracy and human rights,without the slightest regard to our ethnic origins...That would be the ideal solution for me..But it is not going to happen...Neither is your True Federation...It is too big a step now for the TCs...Viewpoint keeps telling you every day,and you know as well as I do that is the majority thinking...so what is the point in insisting on it...I can understand the GCs insisting on it,as they believe that is a political tactic in the age of full "democracy",and they hope and believe too perhaps,that enough international pressures will be put on Turkey to accept it,BUT IT WONT HAPPEN... So why are you,Kikapu,insisting on it??? Can't you see that by doing that now you are making sure no solution is found now and possibly never...???

I don't know if anyone is denying the past as to what happened. We all know both the GCs and the TCs killed each other to achieve Enosis and Taksim with the help of foreign powers. As to who did what to whom and how many times or what came first, Enosis or Taksim is irrelevant at this point in time, because they were all intertwined as one, because the war still continues from those times, or else we would not be seeking a settlement.

We all do not know it,Kikapu...Ask Oracle,Epsilon,GR,Paphidis,Piratis,boomerang,B 25, polio...need I go on???
Why dont you tell us what you think we know,and see if we all agree...Sweping this under the carpet will not work...Lets see how many of us know exactly what happened and how many are still in denial...

Because we have already tried the failed system in the 1960's constitution by not having the above principles and look where it got us. Those who want permanent partition naturally want more of the same because the end result will be the same as the last one, only this time permanent partition will be easier along with recognition and maybe even EU membership as an added bonus.

The 1960 syetem did not fail because there were not enough democracy or human rights...It failed becuase nobody gave a damn about these noble notions,and both sides had their own hidden ,or not so hidden,agendas..That is why it failed...without addressing this,openly and honestly and objectively,we cannot move on...

Having lived 25 years under a True Federation in the USA and 5 years in a Federation government in Confederate country of Switzerland, I strongly believe the system works as the plan I drafted for Cyprus. In order for that Federation plan to work, you will need to have willing participants, and I have found out, that the TCs (Turkey) do not want a working system in the form of a True Federation because they really do not want to unify with the GCs if partition cannot be gotten at later stage which the Federation will not allow where as a loose Confederation would. Now Bir, you draw your own conclusions from what is that the TCs (Turkey) want and why.! As for security, it can be provided with a NATO force, which Turkey is a member and that they will have some troops also, if it's about security issues only. I think it is more than just security and is the reason why Turkey wants to be there. Besides, once the BBF is accepted, the old constitution's provisions will be void and new one's need to be agreed on what can be in the new constitution. Guarantorship will no longer be accepted. Britain accepts it, Greece accepts it, and Turkey will need to accept it too, or else there is no peace. Turkey's Guarantor rights are only in the present constitution, but as soon as it is opened to accommodate BBF, all betas are off. Perhaps in Turkey's view, Denktash made a mistake agreeing to BBF, but we are where we are now and Turkey will need to make changes also.

Again,I understand why the GCs would have that suspicion or assumption about the TC motives...It suits them as it gives them the ammunition to press on with the democracy and human rights argument...But why do you,Kikapu ,feel the same way...??? Why do you not give the TCs the benefit of the doubt,and think they are truly fearful of GC intentions,given the past experiences???

I know that the TCs are too traumatised by the past events to trust anyone else but Turkey in the short term...Asking that they give up this protection altogether you are making the same mistake as the GCs...You are asking the impossible and hoping that international pressure will bring it about,despite the genuine TC fears...You too are disregarding the TC concerns...It does not matter if these concerns are real or imaginary....But they must be taken into account...That is the reality,Kikapu...Frustrating as it might be...


Enough for now...I need to go out and attend to some business now.
I will continue with my response when I get back....

[-mikkie2-]

"The GCs here with the notable exception of Bananiot and miltiades,see everything in black and white...They were right in demanding ENOSIS with Greece,the TCs were wrong to oppose it...The EOKA fighters were heros,the TCs who thought otherwise were wrong...Makarios was right to want to change the constitution,the TCs who opposed it were wrong...There was nothing wrong with the treatment of the TCs during 63-74 period,the TCs who say otherwise are liers and exaggerators....etc etc...You get my gist... "

I know that your post is directed to Kikapu but you are making sweeping generalisations Bir!

So Bananiot and Miltiades are the only two people that show empathy for the TC's? I beg to differ.


Bir, the issue here is that BOTH communities have suffered. You cannot put what the TC's suffered above what the GC's have suffered. You cannot also expect the GC's to give the 'benefit of the doubt' to the TC's because the TC's are really ruled by Turkey and much of what happens in the north is done to pursue the interests of Turkey and not the TC's. The longer division goes on, the worse it will become for the TC community.

Likewise I understand why the TC's cant expect to give the 'benefit of the doubt' to the GC's. But one thing that the GC's (more specifically the RoC) do have is that they are part of the wider EU community and as such are largely governed by the principles enshrined in the EU. If you think that the GC's can pursue their 'aims' within it then you are sadly mistaken.

Also, I would ask you to think about the fact that Cyprus has not been flooded by Greeks since joining the EU in order to strengthen the Greekness of Cyprus. If there was an underlying policy of strengthening the Greek presence in Cyprus then I would expect to see the Enosis 'dream' being pursued with vigour. If anything, since joining the EU, Cyprus has strengthened its independence.

Also, take note of your signature - If you want the true Republic of Cyprus live then act to make it so. Look to the future and not the past. Sacrifices will have to be made, both by TC's and GC's, and these are mainly psychological which unfortunately are one of the hardest things to overcome.

[Paphitis]

Kikapu wrote:

I don't know if anyone is denying the past as to what happened. We all know both the GCs and the TCs killed each other to achieve Enosis and Taksim with the help of foreign powers. As to who did what to whom and how many times or what came first, Enosis or Taksim is irrelevant at this point in time, because they were all intertwined as one, because the war still continues from those times, or else we would not be seeking a settlement.

Bir wrote:

We all do not know it,Kikapu...Ask Oracle,Epsilon,GR,Paphidis,Piratis,boomerang,B 25, polio...need I go on???
Why dont you tell us what you think we know,and see if we all agree...Sweping this under the carpet will not work...Lets see how many of us know exactly what happened and how many are still in denial..

Bir, I forbid you to speak on my behalf, because you don't have any idea what I believe and how I think!

You are completely wrong, because there is no decent GC on this forum that does not condemn any unlawful act which has cost the life of any TC or caused them suffering. That includes Oracle, GR!, Piratis, boomerang, palio and everyone else.

Many of us have studied the Cyprus Problem in detail, from 1955 onwards, and are very familiar with the events of 1963-1967 and 1974. No one is happy that TCs lost their lives, and we are also not happy that GCs also lost their lives, and we are still not happy that Turkey continues to occupy our lands and holds us all to ransom.

So the war goes on, and we will use the only effective (for the time being) weapons within our arsenal to maintain the current status quo, and keep Turkey out of the EU, until there is such time a deal can be brokered which will guarantee our rights as EQUAL citizens and within a unified state or BBF which is viable and workable. If this does not occur, then the status quo will just continue for many years and you can cry and preach empathy and understanding all you like, but we are not prepared to sign off our stolen lands and properties, or our democratic and human rights as EU citizens in order to appease your selfish needs!

If this means that Partition is cemented, then so be it. Turkey will lose much more than we ever will in the long run, and the future of the TCs on Cyprus will hang in the balance. There is nothing we can do about this, and it appears the TCs can't do anything about this, or don't want to.

We are in this for the long haul. The war continues, as we won't surrender all we hold dear...

I will now ask you the same question I asked T_C and was unable to deliver! Please find us one post where a decent GC has made light of any TC victims of the 63-67 crisis or the 74 invasion! Find me just one post Bir, where Oracle, GR!, Piratis, boomerang, B25, Palio or myself do not accept responsibility for the actions of a few GC fanatics that killed some TCs, took them hostage, or caused them suffering.

JUST ONE POST BIR!

[denizaksulu]

Just found a simplified piece of the puzzle about Cyprus' predicament ...



THE DESTINY OF CYPRUS

Author: N. ALEXANDROV, V. KONDRATYEV

Britain's island colony of Cyprus has repeatedly attracted the attention of world public opinion in recent years. Its destiny was discussed at the Ninth Session of the General Assembly of the United Nations and prompted lively press comment in many countries. Both the U.N. discussion of the Cyprus question and the developments that preceded it revealed sharp differences between many members of the aggressive North Atlantic bloc. They also laid bare the unsavoury political moves that some NATO countries, particularly the United States and Britain, are making to prevent the inhabitants of Cyprus from realizing their demands.

What lies at the root of the Cyprus question? Why is this island a bone of contention between some of the great and small Atlantic partners? What are the aspirations of the Cypriote?

Cyprus is extremely well situated, strategically close to important Mediterranean sea lanes and astride air routes linking Europe with the Middle East and North-East Africa.

Close to the coasts of Turkey, Syria and Egypt, and near the routes from the Aegean Sea to the Suez Canal, India and the Far East, Cyprus has tempted foreign conquerors since antiquity. Its population has suffered greatly at their hands. Through the centuries the island was ruled, in turn, by the Egyptian Pharaohs and Alexander of Macedon, Persia, Rome, the Byzantine emperors, Richard Coeur de Lion, the Knights Templars, Venice and Turkey.

From 58 B.C. to 395 A. D. Cyprus was a Roman province. After the collapse of the Roman Empire it passed into the hands of the Byzantine emperors. In the second half of the 15th century it came under Venetian rule. Then, in 1571, it was conquered by the Turkish Sultan Suleiman II. The Ottoman Empire ruled Cyprus for more than 300 years. It was in those centuries that the island's present Turkish minority of about 18 per cent of the population originated.

Despite the numerous foreign invasions, the Greek inhabitants of Cyprus have preserved their language, religion and culture. A distinctly national colouring can be seen in their entire mode of life: in their dress and customs, in their music, dances and handicrafts, in their buildings. The ruins of temples and other structures bear witness to the island's ancient culture.

Great Britain seized Cyprus from the Ottoman Empire after the Russo-Turkish war of 1877-1878. On June 4, 1878, Britain forced Turkey to sign the Cyprus Convention giving Britain the right to occupy and administer the island in return for an obligation to render the Sultan armed assistance in defending Turkey's Asiatic possessions "against encroachment by Russia."

page 100

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THE DESTINY OF CYPRUS 101

The idea of territorial aggrandizement at the expense of Turkey had arisen in the minds of Britain's rulers long before the Russo-Turkish war of 1877-1878. It took final shape, as a decision to occupy Cyprus, on March 27, 1878,1 after the signing of the San Stefano peace treaty between Russia and Turkey. The English bourgeoisie wanted the island because of its exceptional strategic position on the Mediterranean routes. They calculated on turning it into a strongpoint for subsequent expansion in Egypt and other Mediterranean countries.

On instructions from his government, on May 24, 1878, the British Ambassador in Constantinople presented the Sultan with a demand to yield Cyprus within 48 hours.2 The next day, the Sultan gave in. His firman placing the island under British "temporary administration" was made public in Nicosia, the Cypriot capital, on June 30, 1878.

The "temporary" occupation lasted until the British colonialists annexed the island outright in November 1914, after Turkey entered the war on the side of Germany. "From and after the date hereof," declared the British Order in Council, "the said island shall be annexed to and form part of His Majesty's dominations. .. ."3

In the Treaty of Lausanne, July 24, 1923, Turkey recognized the annexation of Cyprus. The island was officially proclaimed a British colony on May 5, 1925.

During the First World War the British imperialists tried to use Cyprus as a bait to draw Greece into the war against Germany and her partners. They promised, on October 18, 1915, to cede the island to Greece if she abandoned her neutrality. Greece refused. Two years later she did join the Entente against Germany, but Britain preferred not to raise the question again. Prior to the Second World War, the rulers of Greece, greatly dependent on the British imperialists, both economically and politically, decided that the question of Cyprus was better left unposed.



http://dlib.eastview.com/browse/doc/20201807

So much for your credible link Oracle mou

The author does not even know which Ottoman Sultan conquered Cyprus in 1571. Shame on him. I dont blame you; perhaps you did not read the whole article.

[denizaksulu]

dp

[Kikapu]

Oracle,my first few years here were spent talking about what the TCs did wrong...If you are that curious go and look at some of my earlier posts...
I believed that if both sides admitted to their mistakes that would precipitate goodwill,empathy,and respect...But when very little came back from your side,,and people started to think I thought only the TCs were at fault I had to stop and reconsider...In conflicts like this,it is never just one sides fault...You would do your side a lot of good if you admitted some of your mistakes...But you are just like that PR guy in the video...You are a spin doctor,twisting everything to show the GCs as whiter than white...You are unbelivable and incredible...If you could only realise that the one who shouts most and loudest is not necessarily right...In my eyes you are now laughing matter...

Bir, it is admirable that you have acknowledged wrongs done by the TCs in the past that brought about today's problems, but so has some GCs made the same, including Piratis, but the problem is, these acknowledgments are meaningless if it's only done by the people like us at the bottom end of the political spectrum when it is not done at the top leadership level. As I've stated before, Christofias has at least on one occasion, perhaps on two, did acknowledge the past mistakes done to the TCs by the GCs. Talat did not say anything. So, until the leaders starts talking about empathy and understanding of the other sides pain and suffering, which by the way, is still continues today by many Cypriots, what you are asking for will not become a reality. In any case, full recognition of those who have suffered in the past and presently by all Cypriots can only come once there is a settlement which would respect everyone's Democratic and Human Rights, because unless the above principles happen, not only there can never be a true peace, but there can never be true empathy and understanding since unfair advantages afforded to one side over the other will only ferment hate and revenge and not love and respect. This is why Annan Plan was not the answer for Cyprus and neither is any other loose Confederation, just because it will not offer peace in Cyprus, specially if the Turkish Army remains in Cyprus as the "Guardian Angels".

You know very well that the majority in the north wants partition as VP does, and since he has been labelled as the spokesman for the majority in the north, then lets take it as a given, that it is partition and not unification which is what they desire. True Federation denies them any possibility of a partition since under True Federation both the north and the south state will be "joined at the hip" but with a loose Confederation, Turkey will rule the whole island through the Confederate north as well as have influence in the EU, once again through the Confederate north. Not only that, each Confederate state will be able to issue citizenships to whom ever they like, which would mean the north state controlled by Turkey will be able to bring as many Turks to Cyprus and make them into "Cypriots" and EU citizens. The north's biggest industry would become the issuance of EU citizenships on the black market at premium price. Not only to the Turks from Turkey but to every person from anywhere in the world. The corrupted society that is already well established in the north today will just carry over into the Confederate state. The RoC will not agree to this nor will the EU.!

What a load of crap we come to expect this from you, can you please state things that GCs have done wrong to contribute to todays division, I have never read anything from you.

Once again you have proven to us that you have a comprehension problems of the written English language, VP.!

I didn't state anything what the TCs did or did not do that brought about the division in my above post, therefore your question is not related to my post. In any case, I'll let Bananiot and Miltiades tell you what the GCs did or did not do, in what they may have contributed to the Cyprus division.!

[BirKibrisli]

It is always better to let those from their own community criticize their own people, just like what Bananiot and Miltiades does with the GCs, otherwise it will be like a merry go around with you GCS, you TCs, you GCs, you TCs, you GCs, you TCs. What is the point. Besides, you give me too much undeserved credit as having any influence on the GCs thinking if I choose to criticize my own peoples mistakes and not theirs. I let Bananiot and Miltiades do it, just because they can be more effective that I ever could. I thought your past one-two weeks slag match with Oracle and others would have thought you what I'm talking about.

I don't agree with you logic here,Kikapu....You know how the GCs here treat Bananiot and,to a lesser extend,miltiades...I will not repeat their words and insults,but I am sure you are well aware...But the deniers cannot dismiss your words so lightly...Hence if you said what you believed were the GC faults,they will have to consider it,for the whole of 5 minutes at least,before they dismiss it...

The above is a little bit over the top, but in a nut shell, don't you think the TC leadership and Turkey has built a corrupted society in the north over the last 30+ years where corruption runs from the top down to the average man on the street, whether the decent TCs would like it or not. The average TC has become victims themselves in the pool of corruption by being forced on them by taking and selling GCs properties, not to mention the ones who have done it for greed alone. We TCs were never like this before.

Sure,there is corruption in the trnc,and I have often talked about it in the past...sometimes in very harsh terms...As you imply above it was not the fault of the TCs,it was forced upon them...The average decent TC has lost big time,Kikapu...I don't know what your personal experiences are,but in my family alone,2 of my Uncles who were already living in Nicosia pre 74 have refused to touch any refugee property...My other relatives,including the Auntie I share with Deniz,who became refugees themselves were only given a fraction of what they left behind...Most others who left before 74 got absolutely nothing for their properties in the South...The GC claim that all TCs got rich on refugee property is simply a myth...

Yes Bir, I and my family and neighbours from Küçük Kaymakli were in the front row as things started unfolding December of 1963, which you accurately stated that I have wrote about my experience from that era here on the forum, therefore I have not forgotten about the past nor will I ever, but also in my writings at the end, I've stated that I had moved on and that I wish for others to do the same. I did move on, as well as all my close family members despite losing loved ones in the conflict. I was lucky that I was able to leave Cyprus in 1964, but most of my family did not leave until 1967-68, and even they have moved on. By doing so, I'm in a very good place to see things very clearly rather than harping on the past. The future for me lies ahead and not in the past. I'm sorry for those who are stuck in the past with their painful memories haunting them today, which will obstruct their clear vision for the future. I've moved on from my experiences in 1963 and I'm more interested fresh new start for the TCs in the future in a True Democratic way than the ugly past. We all have a choice as to which road we want to take. I've chosen mine long ago as I thought you had chosen yours, but apparently you are still trying to find your way from the past events to the future. I wish you all the luck my friend, because time waits for no man. Today times are much different that the past, thanks to Cyprus being in the EU, or else I might too have your concerns whether to trust the GCs or not in a unified Cyprus. I felt at complete ease in my visit to the RoC couple of years ago and wrote about that experience too where I had many positive contacts with the GCs. You cannot brush aside what a major achievement has been made by Cyprus being in the EU which will peace to Cyprus and for the GCs and TCs to live under the EU principles, which was not possible in the 1960's. But it is here now, and that's why I have beliefs that there is a chance to start a new life in Cyprus under True Federation, True Democracy, Human Rights, International Laws and the EU Principles.

There is no doubt you have moved on,Kikapu and that is very commendable...But do you believe the average TC represented by Viewpoint also moved on??? And when you say your close relatives have all moved on,what exactly do you mean??? Are they prepared to return to Cyprus and live with our GC compatriots if a solution is not found??? If not why not? If yes,why haven't they done so till now???I am assuming from your writings that most of your close family live overseas....Please correct me if I am wrong...Again I return to my couple analogy,because one of the partners have used the assets left behind and managed to build a nice home,and managed to join a club with a lot of benefits,how realistic is it to expect the estranged partner to return "home",before the remaining partner shows remorse and agrees to go to anger management or couple therapy???? True democracy,human rights,international law etc sounds great,but it will not get the TCs and Turkey to sign on the dotted line...So obviously a compromise interim solution is needed...Knowing this,and insisting on True Federation,as you put it,is it not as questionable as Talat's ( and Turkey's) recent proposals?

The answer is that the TCs are under the control of Turkey and the Fascists as well as being kept in isolation by their own leaders for over 30+ years as well as being told to be grateful for their saviours from the butchering GCs.. Even prisoners have a hard time living on the outside if they have been incarcerated for such a long time, and they had not even been brainwashed in thinking that they will be killed in an open society. Then you have the property issues, family members of having being labelled as a traitor if they were to move, as well as waiting and hoping for peace each passing year since 1974. As time goes by, people become very complacent and not very proactive. They go to the south to work, shop and have coffee with our friend Bananiot and vice versa. How many have been killed through all those crossings in the past 5 years or so, aside from DT's father in law , rest in peace, in the north.

You are right in your sentiments here,Kikapu....The only thing I will question is your method of approaching/appealing to the TCs...Knowing what you know,what makes you think hitting the TCs on the head with the democracy and human rights stick is going to change their minds about accepting Turkey's total removal from the picture???

I'm sorry my friend, but what you are talking about is empathy coming from the bottom up in an open society and in peace time, not at the time of war. Today we have a war and not peace. Having the flag on the mountain as in, in-your-face in no peace, keeping Verosa locked up which no one can use, is no peace, selling of GCs properties, is no peace, Turkey directing how Cyprus should be, is no peace, the north being kept in isolation, is no peace, the TCs not having international voice in the form of the RoC, is no peace, so Bir, if their is NO PEACE, then how can you expect any empathy or understanding from either side of the past or what is going on at present. Please give me an example where warring parties had anything good to say to each other collectively and not those on individual basis. It is Oxymoronic to expect warring parties to feel sorry for each others predicaments. Once the dust is settled, then you will see empathy and understand as the case has been between all countries who have fought and died, thousands of times worse than our Cyprus problem. What you want to do now is to push for a settlement where each individuals rights are respected, then come and tell me there is no empathy and understanding extended to the other side of what happened in the past. You are expecting too much for everyone to go to the streets to ask for forgiveness for their past demons. It has never happened that way in past conflicts and will not happen in Cyprus today. Maybe in May. I'll keep my fingers crossed my friend, but only if there is an agreed settlement, otherwise nothing will happen. I'm sorry to tell you the bad news, but I thought you already knew that already. Peace first, then the empathy and understanding of each others pains from the past, because right now, each one is only interested in their own pains and couldn't give a damn about others. That is a hard fact, but that's the way it is.

I am sorry,Kikapu,saying lets have peace first and empathy and compassion will follow is like saying lets have the wedding first and love and passion will follow...The 2 sides do not trust each other...They do not respect each other...They have very little understanding and sympathy for each other...They are deeply suspicious of each other's motives and good intentions...How can you possibly expect this union to work without some ground work,building bridges,improving trust and understanding...????

[Kikapu]

An excellent post Kikapu. You have articualted your thoughts well. I agree that empathy can't come from the bottom up. It is up to our leaders to demonstrate that they are prepared for peace and to work together for a better future for Cyprus.

If our leaders demostrate that we can move on, to forgive, to look to the future then the people will follow.

Thanks, Mikkie2

I agree, that in time of war, empathy and understanding is the last thing that is on peoples mind to offer the "enemy". They are too busy licking their own wounds. It has always been that way throughout history. It can only come from the top before peace is achieved, and so far, Talat has refused to meet Christofias half way. Those of us at the bottom can only give empathy and understanding once there is an agreed settlement where everyone's rights are respected. I wish it was the other way around as my friend Bir would like it to be, but it is not the case, or else it would have happened already by now, society wide. It hasn't.!

[Oracle]

Just found a simplified piece of the puzzle about Cyprus' predicament ...



THE DESTINY OF CYPRUS

Author: N. ALEXANDROV, V. KONDRATYEV

Britain's island colony of Cyprus has repeatedly attracted the attention of world public opinion in recent years. Its destiny was discussed at the Ninth Session of the General Assembly of the United Nations and prompted lively press comment in many countries. Both the U.N. discussion of the Cyprus question and the developments that preceded it revealed sharp differences between many members of the aggressive North Atlantic bloc. They also laid bare the unsavoury political moves that some NATO countries, particularly the United States and Britain, are making to prevent the inhabitants of Cyprus from realizing their demands.

What lies at the root of the Cyprus question? Why is this island a bone of contention between some of the great and small Atlantic partners? What are the aspirations of the Cypriote?

Cyprus is extremely well situated, strategically close to important Mediterranean sea lanes and astride air routes linking Europe with the Middle East and North-East Africa.

Close to the coasts of Turkey, Syria and Egypt, and near the routes from the Aegean Sea to the Suez Canal, India and the Far East, Cyprus has tempted foreign conquerors since antiquity. Its population has suffered greatly at their hands. Through the centuries the island was ruled, in turn, by the Egyptian Pharaohs and Alexander of Macedon, Persia, Rome, the Byzantine emperors, Richard Coeur de Lion, the Knights Templars, Venice and Turkey.

From 58 B.C. to 395 A. D. Cyprus was a Roman province. After the collapse of the Roman Empire it passed into the hands of the Byzantine emperors. In the second half of the 15th century it came under Venetian rule. Then, in 1571, it was conquered by the Turkish Sultan Suleiman II. The Ottoman Empire ruled Cyprus for more than 300 years. It was in those centuries that the island's present Turkish minority of about 18 per cent of the population originated.

Despite the numerous foreign invasions, the Greek inhabitants of Cyprus have preserved their language, religion and culture. A distinctly national colouring can be seen in their entire mode of life: in their dress and customs, in their music, dances and handicrafts, in their buildings. The ruins of temples and other structures bear witness to the island's ancient culture.

Great Britain seized Cyprus from the Ottoman Empire after the Russo-Turkish war of 1877-1878. On June 4, 1878, Britain forced Turkey to sign the Cyprus Convention giving Britain the right to occupy and administer the island in return for an obligation to render the Sultan armed assistance in defending Turkey's Asiatic possessions "against encroachment by Russia."

page 100

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THE DESTINY OF CYPRUS 101

The idea of territorial aggrandizement at the expense of Turkey had arisen in the minds of Britain's rulers long before the Russo-Turkish war of 1877-1878. It took final shape, as a decision to occupy Cyprus, on March 27, 1878,1 after the signing of the San Stefano peace treaty between Russia and Turkey. The English bourgeoisie wanted the island because of its exceptional strategic position on the Mediterranean routes. They calculated on turning it into a strongpoint for subsequent expansion in Egypt and other Mediterranean countries.

On instructions from his government, on May 24, 1878, the British Ambassador in Constantinople presented the Sultan with a demand to yield Cyprus within 48 hours.2 The next day, the Sultan gave in. His firman placing the island under British "temporary administration" was made public in Nicosia, the Cypriot capital, on June 30, 1878.

The "temporary" occupation lasted until the British colonialists annexed the island outright in November 1914, after Turkey entered the war on the side of Germany. "From and after the date hereof," declared the British Order in Council, "the said island shall be annexed to and form part of His Majesty's dominations. .. ."3

In the Treaty of Lausanne, July 24, 1923, Turkey recognized the annexation of Cyprus. The island was officially proclaimed a British colony on May 5, 1925.

During the First World War the British imperialists tried to use Cyprus as a bait to draw Greece into the war against Germany and her partners. They promised, on October 18, 1915, to cede the island to Greece if she abandoned her neutrality. Greece refused. Two years later she did join the Entente against Germany, but Britain preferred not to raise the question again. Prior to the Second World War, the rulers of Greece, greatly dependent on the British imperialists, both economically and politically, decided that the question of Cyprus was better left unposed.



http://dlib.eastview.com/browse/doc/20201807

So much for your credible link Oracle mou

The author does not even know which Ottoman Sultan conquered Cyprus in 1571. Shame on him. I dont blame you; perhaps you did not read the whole article.

Selim was the son of Sultan Suleiman I so that makes him Sultan Suleiman II as the article suggests ... or is there some other name-changing going on, as only you Turks can manage