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The Cyprus Problem for Dummies .....

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby BirKibrisli » Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:37 pm

Kikapu wrote:An agreement based on a Fair & Just settlement based on Democracy, Human Rights, International Laws and EU Principles is what will protect the TCs and not lack of them, as the case was in 1960 constitution, just because it was never meant to protect anyone, but only help those to achieve Enosis and Taksim, and in the end, even though Taksim had crossed the finishing line first, it can hardly be called a victory for the TCs. It has been in fact a "White Elephant" for them and the last 36 years is the proof. It is time to be part of the 21st century, or else they will be left behind to become extinct in the flood of the settlers, even though that is a welcome to some TCs than uniting with the GCs. Foe some, the Taksim struggle continues, and no matter how much I can try to tell them otherwise, it will fall on deaf ears. Those people are beyond reach to accept Unified Cyprus with the above principles I have already mentioned. They are all too happy to do without them and become part of Turkey, as they think annexation will take place, which I do not think that can ever happen, because that's not what Turkey wants, because that will not help Turkey in anyway to become a EU member or influence EU policies through the TCs in a United Cyprus under the terms of what AP had, which was a Confederation. That will not happen either. You may call it being a GS position that I'm taking, but for me, it is being able to see both sides of the Chess board and where the pieces are and able to see the game 3 moves ahead of your own pieces and your opponent’s. Cyprus has been nothing but a chess game for the past 60+ years and the game is still on going. A settlement based on the above principles is what is going to take to finish this game. The question is, are the TCs and the GCs willing to call it a draw and start a fresh game of Unified Cyprus with everyone’s rights protected as equal citizens. It remains to be seen, but it is my hope.!



Kikapu,the TCs will NOT buy that argument...Not at this stage...Not while there is mutual resentment and mistrust....So why are you going on about it? They will not agree to any solution which will remove Turkey from the picture altogether...Which part of that dont' you understand...?They have experienced one thing they hadn't experienced in ages...Physical security... Now think back...Why did you have to leave Cyprus in 1964?
Were your parents adventurous souls who wanted to explore the world?
Think back to what you felt when you were being held prisoner in that school in LImassol? Was it much fun? Now you might have had the opportunities to overcome your trauma,but the average TC (and GC of course,that goes without saying) has not...You did say the GCs have not moved on from 74 mental stress and trauma...Now how can you expect these poor souls to forgive and forget and get back together as if nothing happened?The best thing you can do,if you want a lasting peace in Cyprus is to convince your GC mates here that they are deluded creatures,they must take responsibility of their past actions,instead of helping them deny it and sweep it under the carpet...

I keep telling you,anything you tell TCs will always fall on deaf ears as long as you refuse to tackle the GCs on their denial of our bloody history...Saying I moved on,so now I am living in 21st century in civilised Europe,lets trust NATO and be done with Turkey will not cut ice with the average TC...The memory of those thousands of Bosnians lined up and shot under the electronic eye of your trusted NATO forces is too fresh...Even if they manage to forget their own personal experiences and the traumas in their colective TC consciousness...This is not a chess game ,mate... Chess game is played by two parties of equal skill and resources,withing preset rules obeyed by both sides....Cyprus problem had none of those elements...What you call reality is in fact total delusion.36 years is far too long to wipe out at will,motivated by some vague talk about democacy,human rights and EU principles...In TC collective consciousness the GC is still the same person who wanted to gift Cyprus to Greece,who massacred whole villages,who killed sick people in their care in hospitals,who made bus loads of people disappear....And in GC collective consciousness the TC is the same person who frustrated their Enosis dream,who collaborated with the bRITISH,WHO ARE THE REMNANTS OF THE OPPRESSIVE oTTOMANS,WHO ARE NOW STEALING THEIR LAND IN THE nORTH...OPPS...accidental caps lock...By all means let us strive to achieve all we can to satisfy the democracy and human rights and EU principles,and let us strive to satisfy as many people's right to return and property rights as possible,but dont ask the impossible from a wounded community who for 36 years lived by the generosity and kindness of its one and only benefactor...I have talked many times about my misgivings regarding the settlers,the loss of our unique Cypriot identity,and about Turkey putting her own interests above those of the TCs...There is no denial there...But nothing I or you will say will make an iota of difference to the average TC mentality...They would still rather see their children once a year for 3 weeks,instead of risking their physical and emotional health again...I have come to accept this...So as far as I am concerned the biggest obstacle to a lasting and realistic peaceful solution is the GC demand for Turkey's total removal of the picture...You yourself said Turkey was justifed in the intervension,that it should have happened back in 1963...I agree with you...We will talk about that in my response to your other posts....So if anything Turkey was too slow,tardy in fulfilling her obligations under international agreements...How and why the intervension turned into occupation we will discuss later,but ,I will ask again,why does the GC fear of future Turkish action rests more heavily on your shoulders than the TC fear of similar GC action???
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Postby Pyrpolizer » Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:37 pm

YFred wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:
Kikapu wrote: I believe Turkey exercised her rights to intervene in 1974 when the coup happened because that's what she signed up to do. In fact, she should have intervened much earlier in 1963 when the TCs were no longer in the RoC government, then just perhaps, we wouldn’t have had the crises in 1974 and today would be a different Cyprus. So the question I have is, why didn't they.? By not doing so in 1963, Turkey had already violated her own signature to be a guarantor for the whole island. It is beyond me as to why she did not do that. So in short, Turkey had failed her duties to protect the TCs and the GCs as well as restoring the government. Do you have any ideas Bir, as to why Turkey did not intervene in 1963.?


Excellent question. Besides the Guarantor powers were supposed to intervene only for the purpose of securing the Constitutional Order. Not for doing ethnic cleansing…

I personally don’t know the answer to your above question Kikapu. I tend to agree with your speculations, however only a historian who will study in depth the sitution in Turkey, Greece, Cyprus as well as the role of UK/USA during that period could perhaps give a safe answer. I will have a look at my records from the CyprusConflict web side to see if I could find something.

Why bother. The answer is staring you in the eye. USA said no. Simple. There can be no other explanation.


Reh I want concrete evidence, not speculations :wink:
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Postby YFred » Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:38 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:All this hot air and very long post by Kikapu has anyone spotted just one pro TC stance or one criticism against the GC stance, throws his credibility right out of the window.

Thank god we have the TRNC and crazies like Kikapu are diaspora and will die there.


Yes I have and I congratulated him for that. He said Turkey should intervene in 1963. Look at my previous post.

But some of you guys (GCs and TCs alike) are so lazy, that only read and reply to one liners.

And you will go round and round chasing your tail and come to the same conclusion. USA.
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Postby Pyrpolizer » Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:43 pm

YFred wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:All this hot air and very long post by Kikapu has anyone spotted just one pro TC stance or one criticism against the GC stance, throws his credibility right out of the window.

Thank god we have the TRNC and crazies like Kikapu are diaspora and will die there.


Yes I have and I congratulated him for that. He said Turkey should intervene in 1963. Look at my previous post.

But some of you guys (GCs and TCs alike) are so lazy, that only read and reply to one liners.

And you will go round and round chasing your tail and come to the same conclusion. USA.


And then call my self a stupid dog huh :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Alright, alright....

nb. you have quoted another post not the right one.
Last edited by Pyrpolizer on Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby YFred » Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:43 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:
YFred wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:
Kikapu wrote: I believe Turkey exercised her rights to intervene in 1974 when the coup happened because that's what she signed up to do. In fact, she should have intervened much earlier in 1963 when the TCs were no longer in the RoC government, then just perhaps, we wouldn’t have had the crises in 1974 and today would be a different Cyprus. So the question I have is, why didn't they.? By not doing so in 1963, Turkey had already violated her own signature to be a guarantor for the whole island. It is beyond me as to why she did not do that. So in short, Turkey had failed her duties to protect the TCs and the GCs as well as restoring the government. Do you have any ideas Bir, as to why Turkey did not intervene in 1963.?


Excellent question. Besides the Guarantor powers were supposed to intervene only for the purpose of securing the Constitutional Order. Not for doing ethnic cleansing…

I personally don’t know the answer to your above question Kikapu. I tend to agree with your speculations, however only a historian who will study in depth the sitution in Turkey, Greece, Cyprus as well as the role of UK/USA during that period could perhaps give a safe answer. I will have a look at my records from the CyprusConflict web side to see if I could find something.

Why bother. The answer is staring you in the eye. USA said no. Simple. There can be no other explanation.


Reh I want concrete evidence, not speculations :wink:

The evidence in front of you is the size of everest and you are looking for what exactly?
Since the WW2 who has dictated the events of the world not just Cyprus. Are you really that naive.
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Postby paliometoxo » Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:45 pm

ww2 when tr sided with germany who they thought would be the winning side
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Postby Pyrpolizer » Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:49 pm

Viewpoint wrote:
B25 wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:
B25 wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:I am stating how it is in the hijacked "RoC" and the natural process that TCs would face against an all GC panel who are racist and vegence seeking, can you prove that they did not evluate the candidate in this manner, no you cannot so why expose us to double standards and disappointment when we already know we do not stand a chnace in your GC state.

He probably get one field a week....now do you want the job?

VP, you are truelly talking rubbish, you are just looking for excuse after excuse to claim your partition dreams.

Look, when I worked in Nicosia, i had 2 TCs working for me, they used to travel all the way from Kyrenia, they would many times arrive late for work, I would always cut them slack over the other GCs / foreign workers, in fact I took these boys under my wing believe it or not. Your arguement is flawed, I know because I have been in a position to employ TCs and others. the ones suited to the job got it, whoever he was.

please don't keep going on about how we would shit all over the TCs, it is totally bollocks you are talking.


And what type of work do these TCs do?


They were what you call labourers just like some of the GCs and the other foreigners. They were not particularly qualified and I could easily have replaced them if I felt like it as they were arriving late most days of the week. I chose not to as I appreciated the distance they had to travel, so I cut them some slack.

This is actual physical fact that your job fears are unfounded, just excuses to pus for your partitionist aims. And this is coming from someone, well you know well my thoughts on you lot.


Its called cheap labour, or even exploited labour, if you had nothing to gain you would have sacked them without batting an eyelid.


You said you'd rather go to Italy or France rather than seeking work in RoC. Imagine hundreds of TCs have gone to Italy. They don't even know the language. Now you TELL ME what jobs they would get. And BE HONEST.
I am all ears.
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Postby karma » Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:10 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:
Kikapu wrote: I believe Turkey exercised her rights to intervene in 1974 when the coup happened because that's what she signed up to do. In fact, she should have intervened much earlier in 1963 when the TCs were no longer in the RoC government, then just perhaps, we wouldn’t have had the crises in 1974 and today would be a different Cyprus. So the question I have is, why didn't they.? By not doing so in 1963, Turkey had already violated her own signature to be a guarantor for the whole island. It is beyond me as to why she did not do that. So in short, Turkey had failed her duties to protect the TCs and the GCs as well as restoring the government. Do you have any ideas Bir, as to why Turkey did not intervene in 1963.?


Excellent question. Besides the Guarantor powers were supposed to intervene only for the purpose of securing the Constitutional Order. Not for doing ethnic cleansing… 1963 was clearly a constitutional disorder.

I personally don’t know the answer to your above question Kikapu. I tend to agree with your speculations, however only a historian who will study in depth the sitution in Turkey, Greece, Cyprus as well as the role of UK/USA during that period could perhaps give a safe answer. I will have a look at my records from the CyprusConflict web side to see if I could find something.


Turkey was ready and very eager to intervene Cyprus in 64 but USA strictly stopped it..in 74 they changed their minds..God knows why :?
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Postby Get Real! » Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:14 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:
Kikapu wrote:Do you have any ideas Bir, as to why Turkey did not intervene in 1963.?

Excellent question. Besides the Guarantor powers were supposed to intervene only for the purpose of securing the Constitutional Order. Not for doing ethnic cleansing… 1963 was clearly a constitutional disorder.

I personally don’t know the answer to your above question Kikapu.

Logistically, Turkey did not acquire vehicle/personnel landing craft (LCVPs) until 1968/69! These are essential for a land invasion because there are only so many men you can paratroop.
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Postby Pyrpolizer » Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:17 pm

BirKibrisli wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:I really can't understand all this loss of time trying to convince someone to change his stance. What difference would it make if Kikapu started aligning with the views of VP, or if Bananiot would start aligning with the views of GR? Nothing other than remove the FUN and ALSO distort the REALITY that this forum is an image of the outside world. I personally know TCs living IN CYPRUS who have exactly the same views as Kikapu.I know of others who advocate return to the Roc as a solution. I know also of GCs that have exactly the same views as Bananiot.What's the big deal?

Now if your spending all your time in this forum made you having fantasies that this forum is of great concern to foreign embassies, then you are wrong. Foreign Embassies's No 1 concern has to do with commercial deals. The political situation for some of them comes second, and for most of them doesn't even exist. Those who report of the political situation back to their Countries, mostly get their information, from politicians, from the press, certainly from the common citizen they meet and talk to.Political forums like this are sometimes been watched, but not to the degree you imagine.What they want to know is the general trend.

Btw do you know what is mising from all forums? The settlers!! There has NEVER EVER been a single person coming in this or any other forum telling s/he was a settler.Of course we have never seen a Pontian or Russian either although there are so many in Cyprus today.Are we all missing something perhaps?


There is a logic to my madness,dear Pyro...
I happen to believe that for a lasting peace we need to have mutual understanding,respect and hopefully followed by trust...This will not happen if people just keep slagging each other with their official viewpoints...Piratis can endlessly repeat his arguments,he will be dismissed by the TCs as GC propaganda...VP can endlessly repeat his arguments,the GCs will dismiss him in the same way...There are a few people here who have got the credibility on the "other" side who can be really constructive...Kikapu is one such person...I am not saying he should start arguing like VP...But if he only talked about what he must know as a TC,he might bring some understanding in certain GCs here,that their black and white position might not be as black and white as they think...(The same logic goes for Bananiot too,but that is beside the point here...)

You are a good example here...You argue the GC position enthusistically,but you are not afraid to talk about the plight of the TCs as well...miltiades is another such person...You two are part of the solution,Kikapu as he stands is part of the problem....He is simply reinforcing the GCs self-rightious beliefs....So I am trying to find out why he is doing it...could it be that he really doesnt know the real TC situation??? He left Cyprus in 64 I believe as a 7 year old...It is possible that his family was one of the rare TC families who totally identified with the GC political position...so he only heard one side of the story.... :? :? :?


Bir my friend you seem to forget this is just a discussion forum. The very nature f the Cyprus problem turns all discussions here to a debate. And all issues to black and white. Imagine 2 Turks or TCs or australians talking politics between them. That's not a discussion anymore that's hot debate. We see politicians talking on TVs they never agree on anything yet they are best friends very good citizens of the same nation.

Why Kikapu does not align with the majority of TCs, or Bananiot with the majority of GCs or the so many out there in real life who do exactly the same, is not something that really needs spending so much time upon.
I told you before f you try to get into the logic of each and every person you(in plural) will end up crazy. Hell I cannot even understand the logic of my own wife... I just live with her and I am happy she is different otherwise it would be too boring living with her. :wink:

Btw the average Cypriot (TC/GC) does not talk like that when they meet. They just drink coffee and talk for everydays problems, and beleive me our everydays problems are the same, children, family, health etc.

Of course I get your point that Cypriots need to come together in mutual understanding to have hopes for a solution. That would be ideal, but it won't happen imo. Too much separation for too long time. Everybody expects to be presented a solution that will guarantee him a safe NEW START. It is AFTER this safe new start that there will be mutual understanding and respect....
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