Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

There is no doubt you have moved on,Kikapu and that is very commendable...But do you believe the average TC represented by Viewpoint also moved on??? And when you say your close relatives have all moved on,what exactly do you mean??? Are they prepared to return to Cyprus and live with our GC compatriots if a solution is not found??? If not why not? If yes,why haven't they done so till now???I am assuming from your writings that most of your close family live overseas....Please correct me if I am wrong...

Yes my friend, I have moved on and so has all my close family members. We do not harbour any bad feelings towards anyone despite losing members from our extended family in the conflict, but then again, who hasn't from both sides on a small island like Cyprus. All my family from my father's side are in the UK as well as my sister in Turkey. They have built their lives in those countries, therefore that's where they will stay. On my mother's side of the family, they mostly live in the north as well as one or two in the UK. I have moved to few countries in the last 46 years since leaving Cyprus at age 9 and for me, if I ever do move back, it will be at later stage of my life. But if I were to move today to the RoC, I wouldn't have any concerns what so ever regarding my personal safety or being treated differently from anyone else in the south. I owe all this to my two weeks in Cyprus back in 2007 where I met so many GCs and never felt uncomfortable after the first initial day or two, and that was no thanks to the Fascists on this forum bad mouthing the GCs and their treatment of the TCs in the south. As you know, I wrote about that experience here on the forum, just like you wrote your experience of your trip to the south in 2008. Today, if I were to choose between living in the RoC as a EU member state or living in the north's corrupted society created by the TC leaders for the TCs, I would choose the south. However, if there is a peace settlement based on True Federation with True Democracy, Human Rights, International Laws and EU Principles, I wouldn't care where I lived in Cyprus, because I know, that if the individual state would fail my rights, the Federal Government won't. This is why we need a True Federation in Cyprus, just so that everyone's individual and constitutional rights will be protected.

I had a similar experience,Kikapu,and I also described it in my "dairy",but do you think 2 weeks as a tourist with your girlfriend (and I take it she is very swiss looking) are enough to make such an important decision...It is one thing to be an exotic TC tourist in the RoC today,but do you think you'd have felt the same if you were one of tens of thousands of TCs settled in the South and competing with the GCs on jobs,houses,or running a business??? when you read some of the comments from our GC forumers here,does it give you the confidence that they have all moved on too,that there is no underlying racism,not to mention bitterness and hatred towards the TCs??? Do you think the RoC as it stands today is ready to accomodate tens of thousands of TCs,and offer them protection from physical harrassment, discrimination and prejudice???

Bir, it is not fair to move the "goal post" half way through the game. You have asked me about myself and my families situation and desires to move back to Cyprus and I have answered you honestly. You did not ask me how it would be if thousands of TCs moved to the south without first a settlement being reached being a Fair & Just. Anyway, Pyro did answer you in a way I would have done, so I thank him for saving me the time. As for my girlfriend being a Swiss, it had nothing to do with me not being killed by GCs or they being rude to me. I look Cypriot and they just saw me. By the way, the Swiss girls are non descript looking, so perhaps you were thinking the Swedish girls where they almost all look alike. This is a common mistake the Americans would make. They would even ask me if I was identical with my twin sister.!

I had many positive interactions with all those I came across with in the RoC. Each and every day we were on the move and did not spend any time on the beach or in the pool of the hotels. Even the very tough bureaucrat lady in the land registry office spent couple of hours with me finding everything I was looking for, helping me fill all the request forms to get copies of the plots. The teachers at the school building where we were held prisoners for a week in 1963. My birthday dinner in the restaurant where a GC family paid for a bottle of wine and shared his own birthday cake with me. The waitress with 3 kids who's mother was heart broken seeing her property in the north and promising never to return because of what the "Turks" did to her village in the north. The lady who sold us the tickets for the day cruise where her mother never saw her home in the north again after 1974 and died of a broken heart. There were many more experiences as you know, but you get the picture. Anyone who wants to read my trip to the RoC in 2007, it is here.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus11420.html

[Nikitas]

To add a personal observation to Bir's question about competing for jobs and business.

Jobs are an area where the Cypriot custom of who you know and who you are related to plays a major part and skews the game. Business is different. Before the "Turk to Turk" nonsense and the forceful division of people (the "bicommunal" part of partition enforced by TMT since 1958) TC retailers did get a lot of GC business. I recall that most of our family and friends preferred buying cloth (for those made to measure suits!) from TC retailers. Some of our neighbors would only shop at a TC butcher because they trusted him more than the GC guy. The odd thing is that the matter of trust, who is the more honest businessman, was usually mentioned as the reason to prefer a TC retailer.

[Hermes]

[
Anyone who wants to read my trip to the RoC in 2007, it is here.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus11420.html

Wonderful read. Thank you for sharing your trip with us and for revealing the truth behind the motives of those who want partition.

[Tim Drayton]

Btw i consider those thoughts that the occupied part of Cyprus will be flooded by millions of settlers as "a fear spreading tactic". We know very well there are about 80-100K settlers right now compared to about 70-80K original TC's. The vast majority of those settlers came because they were given free properties homes and and lands. There are no more free homes properties and lands to give them...The economy cannot absorb any more cheap labourers from Turkey...

What economy? 1/3 of them are civil servants paid by Turkey and the rest of the economy is made up of scraps that were made by selling our properties. As far as I'm conerned the only one doing any work over there is iceman.

THAT economy then.

Which as I witnessed includes carrying cheap construction workers from Turkey, put them living in packs of 70-100 under nylon sheds in the fields, no sanitation whatsoever etc etc. Would that labourer ever become a permanent settlers here and bring his whole family here too?

Don't think so.

A Turkish Cypriot newspaper has published an article focusing on the conditions faced by a group of mainland Turkish workers on the building site of a five star hotel in Agios Epiktitos (Çatalköy). Every picture speaks a thousand words, they say. Apparently, they haven’t been paid for 50 days, either.

http://www.yeniduzen.com/detay.asp?a=16429&z=19

[Pyrpolizer]

Thank you Tim.
That's what I witnessed.

Certainly your pictures speak much better than my bad English.

[Tim Drayton]

Thank you Tim.
That's what I witnessed.

Certainly your pictures speak much better than my bad English.

The article says that these workers were promised 2000 Turkish lira per month (about 945 euro), which are attractive wages by Turkish standards.

[Kikapu]

Again I return to my couple analogy,because one of the partners have used the assets left behind and managed to build a nice home,and managed to join a club with a lot of benefits,how realistic is it to expect the estranged partner to return "home",before the remaining partner shows remorse and agrees to go to anger management or couple therapy???? True democracy,human rights,international law etc sounds great,but it will not get the TCs and Turkey to sign on the dotted line...So obviously a compromise interim solution is needed...Knowing this,and insisting on True Federation,as you put it,is it not as questionable as Talat's ( and Turkey's) recent proposals?

Well, I have already given you two answers on your "Husband & Wife" analogy as to why it is not a good example for what we have in Cyprus. But I want to hear what is your "interim" compromise for a settlement. Just how many Cypriots rights do you intend violating just to get the TCs to sign up.? Do any of these rights violations also include the TCs or is it only for the GCs.? How do you plan to convince the EU to go along with the violations of their own principles in order to violate the rights of many Cypriots.? What is it in for the GCs to have their rights violated just to please the TCs.? They didn't like it in 1960, so why would they want it today when they have a complete control of the RoC legally, politically and economically, not to mentions yesterday's Orams case results. Can you give me one good reason why they would do all that, just to please the TCs (Turkey) when in fact any attempt like that gives them no guarantee of a better future, even if they did get some land back. I have given you my BBF power sharing proposals which is very balanced for both sides, which is where we TCs need to start thinking of achieving with the GCs. It will be a win-.win for everyone if a genuine unification is what we all want. If not, than it is a bad plan, as VP told me so, because it does not give the north to be pure TC (Turkey) and also does not allow partition at will. Now, you tell me who doesn't want to unify and who does between the GCs and the TCs.!

Whatever you think of my couple analogy,you need to respond to the key aspect of it,Kikapu...That is: there has been physical and emotional trauma in this relationship before...Do you really think we can just sweep it under the carpet,and move onto another relationship,whatever that is,and hope to make it a success...I think (from memory) you implied earlier that that marriage was forced,and that was the reason for troubles.

Your Husband & Wife analogy fails in several points. First of all, you began by using your analogy to only mean that it was the husband that was the bastard and the wife was the abused, therefore she had to trust him to come back to him with his new found wealth in the EU when we know she was also a bitch to him. Then you made it that it was both their fault but again it was the man who was mostly the bastard. But this analogy is based from a TCs point of view and when DT and Piratis gave you another Husband & Wife analogy from GCs point of view, you had dismissed it by saying "you don't remember it being that way". So it all depends who's Husband & Wife analogy we want to believe. In any case, "Husband & Wife" are just two people and Cyprus is 1,000,000 people. Two people can reason in any way shape or form to satisfy each other with promises and understanding. For all Cypriot people, they need a constructive agreements with checks and balances in the political power and judiciary to safeguards all those agreements in the form of a constitution. The agreement on a Just & Fair settlement is what is needed to get these people together under one roof. At the moment you cannot get all these people under one roof, and if you can't do that, how on earth are you going to get any empathy and understanding extended and received from each other. By the majority agreeing to a Fair & Just settlement is the beginning of that process and not the result of it.

There was no forced marriage before, but only forced conditions on the marriage. The new conditions of the next marriage will be chosen by the people themselves and not what Annan Plan tried to do, which was once again forced on them. No one is asking anyone to sweep anything under the carpet. History is never forgotten, it just becomes history.!

But if we ignore the TC red lines today,the new marriage would be a forced one too...I see what you saying though...We have no chance of solving those problems,healing those traumas,so best to forget about them and move on...And hope for the best...This is the crunch point...The TCs have experienced something they had totally forgotten about...They experineced physical security....They do not go to bed and wonder whether they would be waking up in the morning,as it was the case between 63-74...I would be delighted if they moved on on mass...But it is not realistic Kikapu..It is wishful thinking on your part...They have not had your and my experiences,living in the trnc...They need to retain some of that security,at least intially....

Having "red lines" in any negotiations is always a bad idea because it defeats the purpose of negotiations. You can bring your concerns and find a amicable compromise for those concerns, but by saying, "these Red Lines are not negotiable" are doomed to make any settlement plans to fail, because the other side will have it's own “Red Lines” on the same issue, then what happens, a BIG nothing. So lets take the security issue for instance and I have raised this point twice already which you have refused to even mention it, so let me do it for the third time. A compromise on having Turkey in providing security for the TCs would be to have NATO troops to do it, which would also have soldiers from Greece and Turkey to provide security for both the TCs and the GCs without alienating anyone. You often talk about compromises need to be made, so what’s wrong having NATO as a compromise for the TA.

Talking about violations of GC rights...What do you think is happening in Cyprus as we speak? How easy it is for people to forget that there were 2 partners in the RoC Republic and one has been missing for since 1963...Where are our rights accorded under the 1960 agreements...do you also think the TCs simply walked away to advance the Partition cause of Denktas...??? You say the GCs have total control of the RoC legally...That has been the GC argument for ages...Do you as a TC believe that?? You see nothing wrong with the way the TCs lost their share of power in the RoC? do you also think it was all their fault??? Does any moral arguments come in here???

Of course I'm not happy that the TCs are not in the RoC government and how the TCs left/was pushed out, is no longer the issue, because it has been decided by powers to be based on International Laws, that the RoC has full legal and legitimate power over all of it's territory, so it is pointless to ascertain what I believe in or what it ought to be, because I can't change anything. We have to deal with the reality and the reality is what it is. Part of the TCs not having any legitimacy and legality has to do with the creation of the "trnc". It is in fact the "trnc" that lacks the legality and the legitimacy and not the TCs themselves, but since the TCs live in the north, then it becomes one and the same. What would happen if the TCs said to the RoC, "OK, we will dismantle the "trnc" and would like to be part of the RoC". I do not think the RoC can refuse to accept such an offer and the TCs may even get all the conditions of the 1960's constitution, including Turkey's guarantor power.

Now, the RoC will say to the TCs, "well, that is great, but we already have an agreement to find a solution under BBF and that's what we want, but if you want to go back to the old RoC, then we still need to open the constitution to bring it up to date now that we are in the EU". It is possible that compromises still need to be made, but it is also possible for the guarantor ship to remain in place for x number of years despite what Kifeas believes that the UN charter overrides such an arrangement. I just don't believe the GCs are going to agree to have 2 states under BBF, rotating presidency and let Turkey to remain in Cyprus. What do the GCs get in return other than some land, is my question to you.? So to answer your question, under International Laws, the GCs Human Rights are violated by being cleansed from their properties in the north by Turkey and many UN resolutions back this violations. Whether it is right or wrong or what I think is pointless to discuss, because we need to focus on the realities on the ground, and the reality is, the RoC has all the rights and the north does not...............period.!

I do not have my own proposals for a solution,Kikapu...And as I said many times I have no trouble living with your proposals...But it is obvious now,the TCs will not accept any solutiion which will remove Turkey out of the picture from the beginning...The agreement will have to accomodate this,or there will be no agreement...I have one good reason why the GCs should accept a compromise on this,if they don't they will loose 36 % of Cyprus to Turkey...But they will have one consolation,the TCs will lose 100% of Cyprus...Reading cetain Forumers' comments here, that might just be enough incentive for the GCs to insist on not compromising on their recently found democratic and human rights principles...

If the TCs were to accept True Democracy, Human Rights, International Laws and EU Principles, I do not believe Turkey would want to remain in Cyprus, because they will get nothing from it as far as having any control of the TCs, GCs or any part of the territory of Cyprus. If the above can be agreed on, the RoC can ask Turkey to remain on the island with couple of thousand troops, out of sight, for x number of years to be as a symbolic moral booster for the TCs since you think the TCs are so fragile from their past experience with the GCs, but not as a guarantor power with any unilateral intervention rights. My guess is, Turkey will pack it's bags and leave in a very short time because the north state will function just perfectly in it's own security as being one of two states joined at the hip with the south. For that to happen, the north would need to return 50% of the north back to the GCs however, which at this point, the TCs are saying "Hell NO". The only worry to the GCs would be, if a settlement was to be a Confederation and the TCs needed to secede from the union, then the Turkish army would come very handy to see it done.

This was one of the possibilities had the AP was accepted, because today, I believe Cyprus would have been officially partitioned for ever with the north lost to the GCs, so you see, the GCs understand very well, that having a Confederation is a lost cause for them as well as the north and if Turkey can forcefully take it, it is still a loss but not with their approval, which they will then use their legal and political power to give Turkey and the TCs hell and be a thorn at Turkey's side forever. At that point, Cyprus would officially become a "Greek" state and the TCs will become non existent except in history books. Then the next event will be one of two things, either Turkey will trade the north to become a EU member, or there will be one final war to end this long lasting "chess game", because at different time in the future, there’s never a guarantee that Turkey will remain in the same way she is today. They will either reform internally to become part of the west or that the west will get tired of Turkey and treat it like another Iraq situation. One thing for sure however, is that the RoC's place in the EU will remain secure gaining political clout and support from all the EU members. They will not lose the rest of the island to Turkey, but stand a good chance of getting it all back some when in the future, long after the TCs have become a footnote in history books.

[Kikapu]

You are right in your sentiments here,Kikapu....The only thing I will question is your method of approaching/appealing to the TCs...Knowing what you know,what makes you think hitting the TCs on the head with the democracy and human rights stick is going to change their minds about accepting Turkey's total removal from the picture???

It's the only language the NeoPartitonist understand. They need to be told over and over again that the Annan Plan of 2004 is not coming back, ever, so the alternative is to get a system under True Democracy and True Federation to safeguard all their concerns and interests. Turkey just wants to cover her own interests, so telling the TCs that, unless they are there to be protected by them, they will become "dead meat" is something the TCs and Turkey will need to sort out between them. After the past events, the GCs will never give Turkey any rights to intervene. Turkey has a bad track record in that area, along with Greece and the UK. Let NATO forces in to provide security for all until they are no longer needed, even if it takes 100 years.

But they keep telling you they will not accept any solutiion which will remove Turkey from the Picture from day one...Yet,you want to hit them on the head with your democracy and human rights stick till they see it your way...I have not seen one question answered properly on this forum,and it has been put before...IF THE GCS REALLY INTEND NOT TO DO ANYTHING WRONG IN THE FUTURE WHY ARE THEY AFRAID OF TURKEY'S GUARANTEE...I know their answer but is yours the same ,Kikapu...Do you think Turkey was abusing her powers as a guarantor when she intially intervened after the coup against Makarios???
Forget about what happened afterwards....Just tell me what you think on the initial intervension/invasion....

Who is telling they don't want a solution without the Turkish Guarantees, the TCs or Turkey, who is after all the voice in the north and not the TCs. But lets just say that it is the voice of the TCs, then it is one of the things they will need to accept in not having just as the GCs had to accept not having a Unitary state and only GC president. They are giving up on those to have a settlement, so what has the TCs gave up so far to meet the GCs half way.?? As I’ve stated already few times to you, let NATO forces provide security for all, which would also have Turkish and Greek soldiers. You did say that compromises need to be made, did you not.? Well, here's one that requires a compromise.

This statement "IF THE GCS REALLY INTEND NOT TO DO ANYTHING WRONG IN THE FUTURE WHY ARE THEY AFRAID OF TURKEY'S GUARANTEE..." is a non started as being an argument, because the GCs will also make a statement such as "If the TCs do not intend of creating another constitutional crises as they did in 1963 by walking out of the government to start their Taksim drive and to give Turkey a chance to help them achieve it by invading, why should we make it easy for them by having Turkey already here to help them achieve permanent partition". So you see, Bir, it is a losing argument. Best thing is to get rid of the fear for both sides and bring in NATO. If the TCs (Turkey) says "NO", then it's a NO, and so there is no peace and the status quo will continue while the south continues to enjoy their recognition , legalities, political power in the EU and their economy and wait out another 5 years. Their claim on the north will not diminish over time as some TCs seems to think.

Kikapu...Do you think Turkey was abusing her powers as a guarantor when she intially intervened after the coup against Makarios???
Forget about what happened afterwards....Just tell me what you think on the initial intervension/invasion

I believe Turkey exercised her rights to intervene in 1974 when the coup happened because that's what she signed up to do. In fact, she should have intervened much earlier in 1963 when the TCs were no longer in the RoC government, then just perhaps, we wouldn’t have had the crises in 1974 and today would be a different Cyprus. So the question I have is, why didn't they.? By not doing so in 1963, Turkey had already violated her own signature to be a guarantor for the whole island. It is beyond me as to why she did not do that. So in short, Turkey had failed her duties to protect the TCs and the GCs as well as restoring the government. Do you have any ideas Bir, as to why Turkey did not intervene in 1963.?

OK, I don't know why they did not intervene in 1963, but lets take this for a little spin around the block few times and lets see what we can come up with. Was it because she didn't have big enough reason to launch a full scale intervention force just because the TCs were still living all over the island that would have created a backlash on them, or that the TCs had not suffered enough in such a short time, so why not start the process of gathering all the TCs into enclaves for few years to make it so bad, that it would give them more legitimacy to "intervene" next time around with partition in mind. Well, 1974 was the trigger that gave them the reason to intervene and then to invade. Had they just restored the government in 1963 or in 1974 and left after a short time, I don't think there would be such a rejection of Turkey being a guarantor power, since the 1960 constitution would still protect them to be one along with Greece and Britain. We are long ways from that possible outcome, and as a result, Turkey will need to face being "laid off" from her duties because she had failed to keep her promise to restore the RoC government.

Since you are not asking about the invasion part, I will then stop going around the block any more.!

[YFred]

You are right in your sentiments here,Kikapu....The only thing I will question is your method of approaching/appealing to the TCs...Knowing what you know,what makes you think hitting the TCs on the head with the democracy and human rights stick is going to change their minds about accepting Turkey's total removal from the picture???

It's the only language the NeoPartitonist understand. They need to be told over and over again that the Annan Plan of 2004 is not coming back, ever, so the alternative is to get a system under True Democracy and True Federation to safeguard all their concerns and interests. Turkey just wants to cover her own interests, so telling the TCs that, unless they are there to be protected by them, they will become "dead meat" is something the TCs and Turkey will need to sort out between them. After the past events, the GCs will never give Turkey any rights to intervene. Turkey has a bad track record in that area, along with Greece and the UK. Let NATO forces in to provide security for all until they are no longer needed, even if it takes 100 years.

But they keep telling you they will not accept any solutiion which will remove Turkey from the Picture from day one...Yet,you want to hit them on the head with your democracy and human rights stick till they see it your way...I have not seen one question answered properly on this forum,and it has been put before...IF THE GCS REALLY INTEND NOT TO DO ANYTHING WRONG IN THE FUTURE WHY ARE THEY AFRAID OF TURKEY'S GUARANTEE...I know their answer but is yours the same ,Kikapu...Do you think Turkey was abusing her powers as a guarantor when she intially intervened after the coup against Makarios???
Forget about what happened afterwards....Just tell me what you think on the initial intervension/invasion....

Who is telling they don't want a solution without the Turkish Guarantees, the TCs or Turkey, who is after all the voice in the north and not the TCs. But lets just say that it is the voice of the TCs, then it is one of the things they will need to accept in not having just as the GCs had to accept not having a Unitary state and only GC president. They are giving up on those to have a settlement, so what has the TCs gave up so far to meet the GCs half way.?? As I’ve stated already few times to you, let NATO forces provide security for all, which would also have Turkish and Greek soldiers. You did say that compromises need to be made, did you not.? Well, here's one that requires a compromise.

This statement "IF THE GCS REALLY INTEND NOT TO DO ANYTHING WRONG IN THE FUTURE WHY ARE THEY AFRAID OF TURKEY'S GUARANTEE..." is a non started as being an argument, because the GCs will also make a statement such as "If the TCs do not intend of creating another constitutional crises as they did in 1963 by walking out of the government to start their Taksim drive and to give Turkey a chance to help them achieve it by invading, why should we make it easy for them by having Turkey already here to help them achieve permanent partition". So you see, Bir, it is a losing argument. Best thing is to get rid of the fear for both sides and bring in NATO. If the TCs (Turkey) says "NO", then it's a NO, and so there is no peace and the status quo will continue while the south continues to enjoy their recognition , legalities, political power in the EU and their economy and wait out another 5 years. Their claim on the north will not diminish over time as some TCs seems to think.

Kikapu...Do you think Turkey was abusing her powers as a guarantor when she intially intervened after the coup against Makarios???
Forget about what happened afterwards....Just tell me what you think on the initial intervension/invasion

I believe Turkey exercised her rights to intervene in 1974 when the coup happened because that's what she signed up to do. In fact, she should have intervened much earlier in 1963 when the TCs were no longer in the RoC government, then just perhaps, we wouldn’t have had the crises in 1974 and today would be a different Cyprus. So the question I have is, why didn't they.? By not doing so in 1963, Turkey had already violated her own signature to be a guarantor for the whole island. It is beyond me as to why she did not do that. So in short, Turkey had failed her duties to protect the TCs and the GCs as well as restoring the government. Do you have any ideas Bir, as to why Turkey did not intervene in 1963.?

OK, I don't know why they did not intervene in 1963, but lets take this for a little spin around the block few times and lets see what we can come up with. Was it because she didn't have big enough reason to launch a full scale intervention force just because the TCs were still living all over the island that would have created a backlash on them, or that the TCs had not suffered enough in such a short time, so why not start the process of gathering all the TCs into enclaves for few years to make it so bad, that it would give them more legitimacy to "intervene" next time around with partition in mind. Well, 1974 was the trigger that gave them the reason to intervene and then to invade. Had they just restored the government in 1963 or in 1974 and left after a short time, I don't think there would be such a rejection of Turkey being a guarantor power, since the 1960 constitution would still protect them to be one along with Greece and Britain. We are long ways from that possible outcome, and as a result, Turkey will need to face being "laid off" from her duties because she had failed to keep her promise to restore the RoC government.

Since you are not asking about the invasion part, I will then stop going around the block any more.!

Please just finish it off for us and tell us what you think would have happened to the TCs if Turkey did not intervene and Sampson remained president in 1974. So we can all have a good laugh.

[Viewpoint]

I am stating how it is in the hijacked "RoC" and the natural process that TCs would face against an all GC panel who are racist and vegence seeking, can you prove that they did not evluate the candidate in this manner, no you cannot so why expose us to double standards and disappointment when we already know we do not stand a chnace in your GC state.

He probably get one field a week....now do you want the job?

VP, you are truelly talking rubbish, you are just looking for excuse after excuse to claim your partition dreams.

Look, when I worked in Nicosia, i had 2 TCs working for me, they used to travel all the way from Kyrenia, they would many times arrive late for work, I would always cut them slack over the other GCs / foreign workers, in fact I took these boys under my wing believe it or not. Your arguement is flawed, I know because I have been in a position to employ TCs and others. the ones suited to the job got it, whoever he was.

please don't keep going on about how we would shit all over the TCs, it is totally bollocks you are talking.

And what type of work do these TCs do?