Cyprus-Forum.com

[Malapapa]

YOUR EOKA FIGHTERS SLAUGHTERED TCS,YOUR MAKARIOS DROVE THEM FROM POWER,YOUR GREEK COLONELS WANTED TO BRING ENOSIS BY FORCE OF ARMS...TURKEY AS A GUARANTOR HAD TO INTERVENE...

PUT THAT IN YOUR ANIMAL LOGIC AND STIR IT...IT MIGHT JUST MAKE SENSE TO YOU...

USA - 1960s. Who intervened then?



USA - 2009. Who's president now?


When are TCs going to join the 21st century?

[Malapapa]

I'll keep my eyes on Cyprus for the time being, Malapapa.

We'll all sleep easier knowing you're there, knowing you care.

If the Cyprus Problem can be solved, then any problem can be solved...

What Cyprus problem? Cypriots have secured their human right to their properties in the courts. It's the Turkey Problem that needs solving.

[Expatkiwi]

USA - 1960s. Who intervened then?

The Federal government.

[Malapapa]

USA - 1960s. Who intervened then?

The Federal government.

Not an invasion by Africa...

[Oracle]

...In the meantime please refrain from interfering in my serious discussion with Kikapu...We are trying to solve Cyprus problem to your satisfaction!

Well, looks like you've failed!

But then only you seem to think you can forge a solution by blaming GCs only for your childhood fears when you have already told us it was your gun-toting, weapons of mass destruction hiding father who raised you in an abusive and unhealthy atmosphere whilst all the while fueling the anti-GC propaganda to the rest of your relatives.

When you are honest and realise the nightmare was of your own making, then you might alleviate that "PTSD" caused by your nurturing at the hand of supernanny-TMT.

Secondly, I am peeved at your other dishonesty of making out that thousands of TCs left just like you in the 60's in fear of GCs, when in another post you told us you left Cyprus because your father didn't want you to join the army.

So, please put your personal failings behind you, be honest about the reasons for Cyprus' split at the hands of the Turks and either reform as a Cypriot and accept the RoC is the most suitable sole government of Cyprus or relinquish interest and stop making things worse for Cyprus and a solution, with your fantasies.

[Pyrpolizer]

I really can't understand all this loss of time trying to convince someone to change his stance. What difference would it make if Kikapu started aligning with the views of VP, or if Bananiot would start aligning with the views of GR? Nothing other than remove the FUN and ALSO distort the REALITY that this forum is an image of the outside world. I personally know TCs living IN CYPRUS who have exactly the same views as Kikapu.I know of others who advocate return to the Roc as a solution. I know also of GCs that have exactly the same views as Bananiot.What's the big deal?

Now if your spending all your time in this forum made you having fantasies that this forum is of great concern to foreign embassies, then you are wrong. Foreign Embassies's No 1 concern has to do with commercial deals. The political situation for some of them comes second, and for most of them doesn't even exist. Those who report of the political situation back to their Countries, mostly get their information, from politicians, from the press, certainly from the common citizen they meet and talk to.Political forums like this are sometimes been watched, but not to the degree you imagine.What they want to know is the general trend.

Btw do you know what is mising from all forums? The settlers!! There has NEVER EVER been a single person coming in this or any other forum telling s/he was a settler.Of course we have never seen a Pontian or Russian either although there are so many in Cyprus today.Are we all missing something perhaps?

[Kikapu]

I don't agree with you logic here,Kikapu....You know how the GCs here treat Bananiot and,to a lesser extend,miltiades...I will not repeat their words and insults,but I am sure you are well aware...But the deniers cannot dismiss your words so lightly...Hence if you said what you believed were the GC faults,they will have to consider it,for the whole of 5 minutes at least,before they dismiss it...

So what you are saying, Bir, is that Bananiot should start criticizing the TCs from now on and not his own community as he has done so effectively, and if he did that, where would that leave Bananiot, as the great understanding human being that many TCs on this forum see him as. The reason why Bananiot gets a lot of praise from the TCs, it is because he dares to confront his own peoples wrong doings from the past. When I do it, I’m the bad guy. Do I sense double standards here.? My criticism of my community is what is happening today. I have already told you that I have moved on from the past events. I'm not interested what happened in the past other than it’s being part of my and the islands history, and nor me or you can change the past, but we still have a "shot" at the future. Once again, you give me too much credit for altering anyone’s thinking by not criticising the GCs past events. I'm done with the past. Having said that, what is it that you would want me to criticise the GCs at present about.?? Please give me some pointers in what is it that they are doing wrong that is outside the legal parameters of the International community in the UN and the EU.?? Lets hear some wrongs that the GCs are doing as we speak regarding the future of Cyprus, which happens to be an EU member so that I can address them. If they are against Democracy, Human Rights, International Laws and EU Principles, then I would be in their face, because I’m only interested as we are talking about the present and the future of Cyprus and not the past. I'm done with the past, just to repeat myself.!

I would say the same thing to Bananiot,if I was talking to him Kikapu...
Because he only criticises the GC position,he too has neutralised himself in GC eyes...But we are talking about you here...It is a great thing that you moved on...But where have you moved on to??? You have moved onto exactly where the GC position is...Lets forget about the past,look only to the future...The problem is simply one of Turkish occupation..The TCs have been working hand in hand with Turkey from way back to achieve partition...They have ethnically cleansed us from the North...The TCs moved to the North as part of this great plan to achieve partition...Is this where you moved on to???Do you believe all that???Because by remaining silent when that is repeated ad nauseum on this Forum,you give it approval and credibility...

It is great that you moved on..But have the average GC moved on from 1974??? have most of the people who post here moved on??? How can they move on when there has been nothing done to address their emotional stress and trauma...??? How can the TCs move on from 1963-74 without anything done to heal their pain and trauma???I will ask you again...What is the point of harping on about democracy,human rights,EU principles etc when you know that neither the GCs nor the TCs are ready for such a great leep??? How does that bring us nearer to a solution...I understand that it might give the GCs a sense of moral and intellectual superiority over the TCs...could it be that it serves the same purpose for you???

I would say the same thing to Bananiot,if I was talking to him Kikapu...
Because he only criticises the GC position,he too has neutralised himself in GC eyes...But we are talking about you here...It is a great thing that you moved on...But where have you moved on to??? You have moved onto exactly where the GC position is...Lets forget about the past,look only to the future...The problem is simply one of Turkish occupation..The TCs have been working hand in hand with Turkey from way back to achieve partition...They have ethnically cleansed us from the North...The TCs moved to the North as part of this great plan to achieve partition...Is this where you moved on to???Do you believe all that???Because by remaining silent when that is repeated ad nauseum on this Forum,you give it approval and credibility...

But Bir, you haven't said it to Bananiot and neither has any other TC, including me. I know you only want to talk about me, and we will, but it is important to establish credibility and honesty to you concerns about me in criticising the TC side over the GC side. It sounds to me like in what you are saying to me is, "do as I say and not as I do" or "what's good for the goose, it is NOT good for the gander".! If you wanted to be objective, you could at least equate Bananiot and me as two linesman each guarding only half of the football pitch , but instead you want to put me in a position of a referee to be responsible for the whole pitch. Being "neutralised" is not the issue here, what ever that means btw, because if someone doesn't want to hear what you have to say that does not fit into their own ideals, the messenger will always get the blame, hence the phrase "hey, don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger". But he will be "shot" all the same because not everyone is going to like the message.

Now, lets talk about me. You say that I have moved towards the "GC position", what does that mean.? I consider myself as a Cypriot first and then a TC, as I've done the same in Britain and the US. I align myself with others based on political ideology and not based on ethnic lines when it comes to politics.. Your own views had been very much same as mine for the last 3 years, so what are you saying, that you were taking on the GCs position and not your own political ideology.? Don't get me wrong, it is OK for one to change their political position, even it means 180° turn. It happens on occasions from time to time in politics. I consider myself as a Democrat and do not agree with the points of view of Republicans on many issues, because of political ideology, so I criticize them and they citizen me because of what they believe in, which is different than mine. Welcome to Democracy of political ideology of different spectrums.

We all know that Enosis and Taksim was in the works in Cyprus after the 1960 "independence" of Cyprus, and in order to achieve that, there had to have been plans for both sides which varied in style and tactics. What you described above is a very plausible plan to achieve Taksim and it worked, has it not, as Taksim crossed the finishing line in 1974 before Enosis could, but then again, according to a post made by Bananiot few days ago, he clearly showed in a speech made by Makarios in 1968 stating that the Enosis dream was over in 1968, therefore Taksim was the only "horse" in the race from 1968-1974 era.

On January 11, in 1968, Makarios addressed the Greek Cypriots and in his speech he declared the ending of the policy of the desirable (union with Greece) and he spoke of a new drive, this time for the feasible. Since the Cyprus issue has entered a most crucial state, he informed the Greek Cypriots, and we now need to take serious and courageous initiatives in order to overcome the stalemate, the solution sought must be now one within the framework of the feasible, rather than the desirable, and thus I appeal to you to renew my mandate in the coming presidential elections, because I cannot pursue the desirable any longer. I place myself to the judgment of the Greek Cypriot people in order to pursue the feasible.
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28210

Since Makarios was the target of being assassinated by the coupist in 1974, it is safe to say that, he was no longer interested in Enosis as he stated in 1968.

So the question is, why wasn't the Taksim dream over for the TCs in 1968, for Denktash and Makarios to work out their differences. Was it because for Denktash it was going to be "Taksim or Death", just because he was half way there by now with his plans. Didn't everything you wrote above in fact happened after the invasion that came after the initial intervention in 1974 when the coup happened for Enosis. Which part is it not true, or are you saying the whole world is also taking the GCs point of view and are in fact dismissing historical realities. Is the whole world really against the TCs.? Is that what you are saying.? Are we really that bad to be hated by the whole world for them to take on the GCs side of the story only with their own version of what happened.? No my friend, I'm not taking on the GCs side of what happened with what you described above, but in fact only the historical events of what happened, and what you described above are part of those historical facts concerning after 1974.

Before 1968, both sides contributed to the TCs miseries in pursuit of Enosis and Taksim. From 1968 until 1974, most of the blame needs to go to Denktash for not giving up on his Taksim dreams, 6 whole years before the Coup by the Greek Junta and the GC Enosis fanatics who were the minority at the time. In 1968, had Denktash gave up on his Taksim dreams also and their differences worked out with Makarios, then the TCs could have been spared further 6 years of hardship as well as the 1974 events would have been avoided perhaps, or had the coup still happened, then it could have been easily defeated by all Cypriots if they were in fact united, without the need of Turkey even coming in. That's not what happened. Turkey did come in first as a guarantor power to help calm the situation, then came the invasion, the killings, the rapes, the ethnic cleansing of the north for the GCs, TCs moved to the north from the south, Turkish Army remained, BBF was agreed to, the north declared to be a Federated state on their own, then declared to be a state with "trnc" on their own, GCs properties taken over by the "trnc" on their own, gave out GC properties to the TCs and sold to the foreigners, the Annan Plan failed in 2004 and the RoC became a EU member as a divided island, and now once again the settlement talks are once again on going, but once again, the policy of partition (Taksim) is still alive by the TCs demanding a Confederation with loose central government in order to be independent from the GCs and to be closer with Turkey, as well as Turkey having a say so in Cypriot affairs by wanting to remain on the island.

It is great that you moved on..But have the average GC moved on from 1974??? have most of the people who post here moved on??? How can they move on when there has been nothing done to address their emotional stress and trauma...??? How can the TCs move on from 1963-74 without anything done to heal their pain and trauma???I will ask you again...What is the point of harping on about democracy,human rights,EU principles etc when you know that neither the GCs nor the TCs are ready for such a great leep??? How does that bring us nearer to a solution...I understand that it might give the GCs a sense of moral and intellectual superiority over the TCs...could it be that it serves the same purpose for you???

Have the GCs moved on from the 1974 events, you ask.? The answer is a YES and NO.! Yes they have moved on with the help of their recognition as the sole legitimate government in Cyprus to rebuild their lives, the RoC in the south, the economy, political power in the form of becoming a EU member, gaining legal victories in the ECJ and the ECHR while the north remained stagnant in all those areas since 1974. The second part of the answer is, No, they have not moved on, because for them, 1974 event was the very last event to have occurred in the history of events in Cyprus and it is still continuing today when it was declared by Denktash after the events of 1974 that the Cyprus problems were now over. For the GCs, the war is not over and they will use everything and anything they can to have a say so over the whole island along with all Cypriots and not have the north "gifted" to the TCs to become a "Turkish State" for the partition to continue. I am happy that they want to agree on a BBF based on True Federation, Democracy and EU principles to safeguard all Cypriots rights to be treated as equal citizens and still have the north majority as TCs and the south majority as GCs, but under one country, one citizenship and one nation where everyone can still call the whole island as their own country, much like how all Americans call the USA their home, despite there being 50 Federal states in the USA.

The TCs may not be ready for Democracy and Human Rights and EU principles, but the GCs are in my view. Cyprus being in the EU, the Democracy and Human Rights cannot be ignored nor can it be altered to please one side at the expense of the other. It is these principles that the TCs should see them as their protection from the days of the past, but their leaders are not telling them this, but instead telling them to become more like Turks than Cypriots by forcing them to change their names, calling them "Turks of Cyprus", "TCs and Motherland Turks are one and the same and so is their policy towards the GCs" "the north must remain an separate state otherwise all our efforts have been in vein for all those who died to achieve it (Taksim)". It is these rhetoric that does not inspire the TCs to past beyond their past horrific experiences, because their leaders are still harping on Taksim to them because they had already crossed the finishing line back in 1974. This is their land now and it must remain "Turkish". Let me ask you, Bir, how can most TCs can move forward when their own leaders are holding them back. How can the GCs help them in any way to over come their fears when their own leaders are not doing it because United Cyprus is not where their hearts are, but the continued struggle of Taksim is. This is why I'm very happy for the RoC being in the EU which can help heal the TCs fears from the GCs and the fact that thousands are crossing the divided line each day for all purposes without any major incidents is a good thing.

An agreement based on a Fair & Just settlement based on Democracy, Human Rights, International Laws and EU Principles is what will protect the TCs and not lack of them, as the case was in 1960 constitution, just because it was never meant to protect anyone, but only help those to achieve Enosis and Taksim, and in the end, even though Taksim had crossed the finishing line first, it can hardly be called a victory for the TCs. It has been in fact a "White Elephant" for them and the last 36 years is the proof. It is time to be part of the 21st century, or else they will be left behind to become extinct in the flood of the settlers, even though that is a welcome to some TCs than uniting with the GCs. Foe some, the Taksim struggle continues, and no matter how much I can try to tell them otherwise, it will fall on deaf ears. Those people are beyond reach to accept Unified Cyprus with the above principles I have already mentioned. They are all too happy to do without them and become part of Turkey, as they think annexation will take place, which I do not think that can ever happen, because that's not what Turkey wants, because that will not help Turkey in anyway to become a EU member or influence EU policies through the TCs in a United Cyprus under the terms of what AP had, which was a Confederation. That will not happen either. You may call it being a GS position that I'm taking, but for me, it is being able to see both sides of the Chess board and where the pieces are and able to see the game 3 moves ahead of your own pieces and your opponent’s. Cyprus has been nothing but a chess game for the past 60+ years and the game is still on going. A settlement based on the above principles is what is going to take to finish this game. The question is, are the TCs and the GCs willing to call it a draw and start a fresh game of Unified Cyprus with everyone’s rights protected as equal citizens. It remains to be seen, but it is my hope.!

PS. I'll try to keep answers to your other posts short, otherwise I'll never get to answer them this year.!

[Pyrpolizer]

Have the GCs moved on from the 1974 events, you ask.? The answer is a YES and NO.! Yes they have moved on with the help of their recognition as the sole legitimate government in Cyprus to rebuild their lives, the RoC in the south, the economy, political power in the form of becoming a EU member, gaining legal victories in the ECJ and the ECHR while the north remained stagnant in all those areas since 1974. The second part of the answer is, No, they have not moved on, because for them, 1974 event was the very last event to have occurred in the history of events in Cyprus and it is still continuing today when it was declared by Denktash after the events of 1974 that the Cyprus problems were now over. For the GCs, the war is not over and they will use everything and anything they can to have a say so over the whole island along with all Cypriots and not have the north "gifted" to the TCs to become a "Turkish State" for the partition to continue. I am happy that they want to agree on a BBF based on True Federation, Democracy and EU principles to safeguard all Cypriots rights to be treated as equal citizens and still have the north majority as TCs and the south majority as GCs, but under one country, one citizenship and one nation where everyone can still call the whole island as their own country, much like how all Americans call the USA their home, despite there being 50 Federal states in the USA.

The TCs may not be ready for Democracy and Human Rights and EU principles, but the GCs are in my view. Cyprus being in the EU, the Democracy and Human Rights cannot be ignored nor can it be altered to please one side at the expense of the other. It is these principles that the TCs should see them as their protection from the days of the past, but their leaders are not telling them this, but instead telling them to become more like Turks than Cypriots by forcing them to change their names, calling them "Turks of Cyprus", "TCs and Motherland Turks are one and the same and so is their policy towards the GCs" "the north must remain an separate state otherwise all our efforts have been in vein for all those who died to achieve it (Taksim)". It is these rhetoric that does not inspire the TCs to past beyond their past horrific experiences, because their leaders are still harping on Taksim to them because they had already crossed the finishing line back in 1974. This is their land now and it must remain "Turkish". Let me ask you, Bir, how can most TCs can move forward when their own leaders are holding them back. How can the GCs help them in any way to over come their fears when their own leaders are not doing it because United Cyprus is not where their hearts are, but the continued struggle of Taksim is. This is why I'm very happy for the RoC being in the EU which can help heal the TCs fears from the GCs and the fact that thousands are crossing the divided line each day for all purposes without any major incidents is a good thing.

Bir, I am mostly interested to hear your reply for these 2 paragraphs, so please spend some more time on them when you reply to Kiks.
Thank you in advance.

[Kikapu]

Sure,there is corruption in the trnc,and I have often talked about it in the past...sometimes in very harsh terms...As you imply above it was not the fault of the TCs,it was forced upon them...The average decent TC has lost big time,Kikapu...I don't know what your personal experiences are,but in my family alone,2 of my Uncles who were already living in Nicosia pre 74 have refused to touch any refugee property...My other relatives,including the Auntie I share with Deniz,who became refugees themselves were only given a fraction of what they left behind...Most others who left before 74 got absolutely nothing for their properties in the South...The GC claim that all TCs got rich on refugee property is simply a myth...

My criticism are generally made to the "trnc" and all those who support the "trnc" 100%, like all our Fascist NeoPartitionist friends here on the forum and all the so called Turkish Newspapers who seem to lack any journalistic integrity or accuracy in their reporting, which Bayrak is no exception and by lesser "nationalist" who just like to pick fights with the GCs for the sake of it. I have always excluded the TC refugees from any attacks in the corrupted establishment of the north. I often separate the decent TCs from the Fascist and the settlers. But lets not kid ourselves, that many TCs who had gotten refugee homes have also bought up a lot of stolen GC land in the north as well as many TCs from the UK and else where. I wrote about my cousin's husband gloating about his purchases of GC properties in the north. He is not alone and it is these morally corrupted individuals who have been also an obstacle to finding a Fair & Just settlement, because they would lose it all, so they prefer anything but a Fair & Just peace plan. To them, Annan Plan was their ticket to keep most of the GCs land and have a partition at the same time in the form of a Confederate states with the "virgin birth" concept. That was voted down by 55.5% vs. 44.5% by all those who voted, and in my personal opinion, that was the right result.

My mother's parents land was divided by 5 children and 4 of them “exchanged” for GC land but my mother kept her deeds for the land in the south and refused to take part by taking GC land. As you have noted, she is not alone, as your family has done the same. Many families have done the same. But that's not to say, today, there isn’t a large amount of dealings that goes on in the north that is GC land. VP is only happy to tell you it is the case. Why do you think he is after a Annan Plan kind of a settlement. He has family members who are holding GC lands and I do not mean "exchange" even though he claims not to have any himself, which is very hard to believe knowing his partitionist stand.

We don't really know what VP's personal position is,so I dont think it is proper to speculate..The biggest profiteers amongst the TCs were those close to power,including those in influential positions in the TMT...There are thousands of indigenous TCs who became refugees or who left Cyprus before 74 who got absolutely nothing...Most land speculators are not TCs but settlers as far as I know..This doesn't make it right of course...But how can you remain silent when day after day you hear GCs talking about all TCs being thieves and dealers in stolen land???You know that is not the case,yet do not correct them...There is another myth on this forum,tht the TCs do not want a solution because they want to keep their financial gains?? As if the TCs had no emotional atachment to their ancestral land,and would sell their mothers for profit...I find that particularly insulting,don't you???

We do know VP's personal situation and it is not a speculation on my part because he told us couple of years ago that some members of his family are holding GC land, but not himself personally. He can correct me if he wants, which I do not believe he will. Why would that be a shock to anyone. I have relatives in the north who also have GC properties, aside from the "exchanged" land that is. When the whole TC community by and large in Cyprus live in the north and all the properties of all the GC refugees properties are being utilised in the north by the "trnc" which we are told it represents the TCs, then it is only logical to assign all those living in the north as holding and enjoying the GCs properties, specially for the fact, for the first 30 years, the GCs were not allow to even go to the north to see their properties. So naturally all those in the north are all going to be grouped as stealers of GCs properties.. Is it not the same, when 4 kids steal a car for a joy ride and are all in the car when the police catches them, even though only one of them broke into the car and was also behind the wheel driving. It's the same here I'm afraid.

Of course there are TCs who have never bought any GC land but are only living in GCs properties because they themselves have become refugees from their own properties in the south. But guess what, they are all in the north amongst the morally corrupted individuals, and since the north's leaders deliberately made the north to become a corrupted society, even the innocent TCs have no choice but to go along with the flow. It is the nature of the beast. Guilty by association comes to mind, which you yourself have implied that I'm also guilty when the GCs call the TCs "thieves" and I do not say anything. I know I don't have any GC land and you don’t have any and Deniz does not have any and Iceman does not have any, because we have established credibility by arguing against those who do. How many times have you seen any NeoPartitonist condemn any TC , settler or foreigners buying and selling GC properties. Not many, but a lot of justifications being made blaming on the isolation, but when VP tells me that BMW's and flat screen TV's are selling like hot cakes and every drive way has two cars, and Insan tells us that the TCs do not do manual labour so they import settlers and other foreigners while the young enjoy driving their cars spending their parents money visiting their times on the beach and night clubs, then you have to ask the question as to where has all this wealth has come from for a place without any economy to speak of.


I believe, that those who are holding onto a lot of GC land do not want a solution based on Democracy and Rule of Law. They want the Annan Plan where it gives the north to them and excludes most of the GC refugees from ever returning to their land. They were to be paid the rates of 1974, and that's it. That's the kind of solution these people want, and then they wonder why the GCs said OXI by 76%. As my cousin’s husband said to me in Cyprus in 2007, "we only voted for the plan, and not for peace". My meeting with him for couple of hours had changed a lot of my views regarding the Cyprus problem. I was told the naked truth by a family member, and I believed him. He had no reason to hold back. But VP tells us the same thing every day, and since you want us to believe VP represents the majority's views in the north, which is very dangerous to do that in my view, it’s no wonder the GCs think the majority of the TCs are thieves and do not want a settlement but a partition taking with them most of the GC land in the north. You have created a "monster" by labelling VP as the representative of the majority of the TCs (and settlers)in the north and the TCs have not helped themselves either, when they align themselves with Turkey and use her flag as their own.

Yes you are correct, that all those TCs who left the island way before 1974 from the south, never got anything for their land in the north. We didn't steal any GC land, so yes, it is not nice to hear that, but for the GCs, they see all those in the north as thieves, because that's where their properties are, and that's where the TCs, the settlers and the carpetbaggers are.!

[B25]

Outstanding post Kiks, very correct, articulated brilliantly and well put.

I would like to shake your hand.

When you come to Cyprus next, please let me know.