Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

He was much bigger think he might be on the way out as well.

[wallace]

He was much bigger think he might be on the way out as well.

We're all going to be on the way out one day. The one a little quicker then the other

[Oracle]

Just found a simplified piece of the puzzle about Cyprus' predicament ...



THE DESTINY OF CYPRUS

Author: N. ALEXANDROV, V. KONDRATYEV

Britain's island colony of Cyprus has repeatedly attracted the attention of world public opinion in recent years. Its destiny was discussed at the Ninth Session of the General Assembly of the United Nations and prompted lively press comment in many countries. Both the U.N. discussion of the Cyprus question and the developments that preceded it revealed sharp differences between many members of the aggressive North Atlantic bloc. They also laid bare the unsavoury political moves that some NATO countries, particularly the United States and Britain, are making to prevent the inhabitants of Cyprus from realizing their demands.

What lies at the root of the Cyprus question? Why is this island a bone of contention between some of the great and small Atlantic partners? What are the aspirations of the Cypriote?

Cyprus is extremely well situated, strategically close to important Mediterranean sea lanes and astride air routes linking Europe with the Middle East and North-East Africa.

Close to the coasts of Turkey, Syria and Egypt, and near the routes from the Aegean Sea to the Suez Canal, India and the Far East, Cyprus has tempted foreign conquerors since antiquity. Its population has suffered greatly at their hands. Through the centuries the island was ruled, in turn, by the Egyptian Pharaohs and Alexander of Macedon, Persia, Rome, the Byzantine emperors, Richard Coeur de Lion, the Knights Templars, Venice and Turkey.

From 58 B.C. to 395 A. D. Cyprus was a Roman province. After the collapse of the Roman Empire it passed into the hands of the Byzantine emperors. In the second half of the 15th century it came under Venetian rule. Then, in 1571, it was conquered by the Turkish Sultan Suleiman II. The Ottoman Empire ruled Cyprus for more than 300 years. It was in those centuries that the island's present Turkish minority of about 18 per cent of the population originated.

Despite the numerous foreign invasions, the Greek inhabitants of Cyprus have preserved their language, religion and culture. A distinctly national colouring can be seen in their entire mode of life: in their dress and customs, in their music, dances and handicrafts, in their buildings. The ruins of temples and other structures bear witness to the island's ancient culture.

Great Britain seized Cyprus from the Ottoman Empire after the Russo-Turkish war of 1877-1878. On June 4, 1878, Britain forced Turkey to sign the Cyprus Convention giving Britain the right to occupy and administer the island in return for an obligation to render the Sultan armed assistance in defending Turkey's Asiatic possessions "against encroachment by Russia."

page 100

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THE DESTINY OF CYPRUS 101

The idea of territorial aggrandizement at the expense of Turkey had arisen in the minds of Britain's rulers long before the Russo-Turkish war of 1877-1878. It took final shape, as a decision to occupy Cyprus, on March 27, 1878,1 after the signing of the San Stefano peace treaty between Russia and Turkey. The English bourgeoisie wanted the island because of its exceptional strategic position on the Mediterranean routes. They calculated on turning it into a strongpoint for subsequent expansion in Egypt and other Mediterranean countries.

On instructions from his government, on May 24, 1878, the British Ambassador in Constantinople presented the Sultan with a demand to yield Cyprus within 48 hours.2 The next day, the Sultan gave in. His firman placing the island under British "temporary administration" was made public in Nicosia, the Cypriot capital, on June 30, 1878.

The "temporary" occupation lasted until the British colonialists annexed the island outright in November 1914, after Turkey entered the war on the side of Germany. "From and after the date hereof," declared the British Order in Council, "the said island shall be annexed to and form part of His Majesty's dominations. .. ."3

In the Treaty of Lausanne, July 24, 1923, Turkey recognized the annexation of Cyprus. The island was officially proclaimed a British colony on May 5, 1925.

During the First World War the British imperialists tried to use Cyprus as a bait to draw Greece into the war against Germany and her partners. They promised, on October 18, 1915, to cede the island to Greece if she abandoned her neutrality. Greece refused. Two years later she did join the Entente against Germany, but Britain preferred not to raise the question again. Prior to the Second World War, the rulers of Greece, greatly dependent on the British imperialists, both economically and politically, decided that the question of Cyprus was better left unposed.



http://dlib.eastview.com/browse/doc/20201807

[BirKibrisli]

Never seen this thread before...It gave me a good laugh...
A PR man's take on the Cyprus Problem...He did a good job this spin doctor...Not a word about the ENOSIS struggle....the EOKA...the killings of 63/64 ...The Treaaty of guarantee and the 1960 constitution...Makarios's 13 proposals...The ousting of the TCs from power....the dark years of 63-74...the Coup organised by Greece which brought to power a convicted murderer,Sampson....


So now I know that Oracle is only interested in GC propaganda and PR exercises...That is her sole intend in this forum...I will not take seriously anything she says from now on ...I will treat her as the agent of official GC PR exercise to sell the Cyprob to Dummiessssssss....

[Oracle]

:lol:

Never seen this thread before...It gave me a good laugh...
A PR man's take on the Cyprus Problem...He did a good job this spin doctor...Not a word about the ENOSIS struggle....the EOKA...the killings of 63/64 ...The Treaaty of guarantee and the 1960 constitution...Makarios's 13 proposals...The ousting of the TCs from power....the dark years of 63-74...the Coup organised by Greece which brought to power a convicted murderer,Sampson....


So now I know that Oracle is only interested in GC propaganda and PR exercises...That is her sole intend in this forum...I will not take seriously anything she says from now on ...I will treat her as the agent of official GC PR exercise to sell the Cyprob to Dummiessssssss....

The Dummies who fall for your sycophantic leitmotif will probably be surprised there is another parallel Cyprus to the one you portray ... the one you denied yesterday, refusing to believe evidence from anything but your TC "memories" that GCs have had their Rights "curtailed" for centuries by your 'holy' presence.

Carry on believing the TCs did nothing to bring us to this predicament because you may just get well again with a dose of truth. Your hypochondria has become too firmly entrenched in your psyche to do you any good except poison others into thinking apartheid is justified because of how ill you become living with GCs.

[BirKibrisli]

:lol:

Never seen this thread before...It gave me a good laugh...
A PR man's take on the Cyprus Problem...He did a good job this spin doctor...Not a word about the ENOSIS struggle....the EOKA...the killings of 63/64 ...The Treaaty of guarantee and the 1960 constitution...Makarios's 13 proposals...The ousting of the TCs from power....the dark years of 63-74...the Coup organised by Greece which brought to power a convicted murderer,Sampson....


So now I know that Oracle is only interested in GC propaganda and PR exercises...That is her sole intend in this forum...I will not take seriously anything she says from now on ...I will treat her as the agent of official GC PR exercise to sell the Cyprob to Dummiessssssss....

The Dummies who fall for your sycophantic leitmotif will probably be surprised there is another parallel Cyprus to the one you portray ... the one you denied yesterday, refusing to believe evidence from anything but your TC "memories" that GCs have had their Rights "curtailed" for centuries by your 'holy' presence.

Carry on believing the TCs did nothing to bring us to this predicament because you may just get well again with a dose of truth. Your hypochondria has become too firmly entrenched in your psyche to do you any good except poison others into thinking apartheid is justified because of how ill you become living with GCs.

Oracle,my first few years here were spent talking about what the TCs did wrong...If you are that curious go and look at some of my earlier posts...
I believed that if both sides admitted to their mistakes that would precipitate goodwill,empathy,and respect...But when very little came back from your side,,and people started to think I thought only the TCs were at fault I had to stop and reconsider...In conflicts like this,it is never just one sides fault...You would do your side a lot of good if you admitted some of your mistakes...But you are just like that PR guy in the video...You are a spin doctor,twisting everything to show the GCs as whiter than white...You are unbelivable and incredible...If you could only realise that the one who shouts most and loudest is not necessarily right...In my eyes you are now laughing matter...

[Kikapu]

Oracle,my first few years here were spent talking about what the TCs did wrong...If you are that curious go and look at some of my earlier posts...
I believed that if both sides admitted to their mistakes that would precipitate goodwill,empathy,and respect...But when very little came back from your side,,and people started to think I thought only the TCs were at fault I had to stop and reconsider...In conflicts like this,it is never just one sides fault...You would do your side a lot of good if you admitted some of your mistakes...But you are just like that PR guy in the video...You are a spin doctor,twisting everything to show the GCs as whiter than white...You are unbelivable and incredible...If you could only realise that the one who shouts most and loudest is not necessarily right...In my eyes you are now laughing matter...

Bir, it is admirable that you have acknowledged wrongs done by the TCs in the past that brought about today's problems, but so has some GCs made the same, including Piratis, but the problem is, these acknowledgments are meaningless if it's only done by the people like us at the bottom end of the political spectrum when it is not done at the top leadership level. As I've stated before, Christofias has at least on one occasion, perhaps on two, did acknowledge the past mistakes done to the TCs by the GCs. Talat did not say anything. So, until the leaders starts talking about empathy and understanding of the other sides pain and suffering, which by the way, is still continues today by many Cypriots, what you are asking for will not become a reality. In any case, full recognition of those who have suffered in the past and presently by all Cypriots can only come once there is a settlement which would respect everyone's Democratic and Human Rights, because unless the above principles happen, not only there can never be a true peace, but there can never be true empathy and understanding since unfair advantages afforded to one side over the other will only ferment hate and revenge and not love and respect. This is why Annan Plan was not the answer for Cyprus and neither is any other loose Confederation, just because it will not offer peace in Cyprus, specially if the Turkish Army remains in Cyprus as the "Guardian Angels".

You know very well that the majority in the north wants partition as VP does, and since he has been labelled as the spokesman for the majority in the north, then lets take it as a given, that it is partition and not unification which is what they desire. True Federation denies them any possibility of a partition since under True Federation both the north and the south state will be "joined at the hip" but with a loose Confederation, Turkey will rule the whole island through the Confederate north as well as have influence in the EU, once again through the Confederate north. Not only that, each Confederate state will be able to issue citizenships to whom ever they like, which would mean the north state controlled by Turkey will be able to bring as many Turks to Cyprus and make them into "Cypriots" and EU citizens. The north's biggest industry would become the issuance of EU citizenships on the black market at premium price. Not only to the Turks from Turkey but to every person from anywhere in the world. The corrupted society that is already well established in the north today will just carry over into the Confederate state. The RoC will not agree to this nor will the EU.!

[BirKibrisli]

Oracle,my first few years here were spent talking about what the TCs did wrong...If you are that curious go and look at some of my earlier posts...
I believed that if both sides admitted to their mistakes that would precipitate goodwill,empathy,and respect...But when very little came back from your side,,and people started to think I thought only the TCs were at fault I had to stop and reconsider...In conflicts like this,it is never just one sides fault...You would do your side a lot of good if you admitted some of your mistakes...But you are just like that PR guy in the video...You are a spin doctor,twisting everything to show the GCs as whiter than white...You are unbelivable and incredible...If you could only realise that the one who shouts most and loudest is not necessarily right...In my eyes you are now laughing matter...

Bir, it is admirable that you have acknowledged wrongs done by the TCs in the past that brought about today's problems, but so has some GCs made the same, including Piratis, but the problem is, these acknowledgments are meaningless if it's only done by the people like us at the bottom end of the political spectrum when it is not done at the top leadership level. As I've stated before, Christofias has at least on one occasion, perhaps on two, did acknowledge the past mistakes done to the TCs by the GCs. Talat did not say anything. So, until the leaders starts talking about empathy and understanding of the other sides pain and suffering, which by the way, is still continues today by many Cypriots, what you are asking for will not become a reality. In any case, full recognition of those who have suffered in the past and presently by all Cypriots can only come once there is a settlement which would respect everyone's Democratic and Human Rights, because unless the above principles happen, not only there can never be a true peace, but there can never be true empathy and understanding since unfair advantages afforded to one side over the other will only ferment hate and revenge and not love and respect. This is why Annan Plan was not the answer for Cyprus and neither is any other loose Confederation, just because it will not offer peace in Cyprus, specially if the Turkish Army remains in Cyprus as the "Guardian Angels".

You know very well that the majority in the north wants partition as VP does, and since he has been labelled as the spokesman for the majority in the north, then lets take it as a given, that it is partition and not unification which is what they desire. True Federation denies them any possibility of a partition since under True Federation both the north and the south state will be "joined at the hip" but with a loose Confederation, Turkey will rule the whole island through the Confederate north as well as have influence in the EU, once again through the Confederate north. Not only that, each Confederate state will be able to issue citizenships to whom ever they like, which would mean the north state controlled by Turkey will be able to bring as many Turks to Cyprus and make them into "Cypriots" and EU citizens. The north's biggest industry would become the issuance of EU citizenships on the black market at premium price. Not only to the Turks from Turkey but to every person from anywhere in the world. The corrupted society that is already well established in the north today will just carry over into the Confederate state. The RoC will not agree to this nor will the EU.!

And as long as the GCs show no remorse and behave like total innocents hardly done by,by the terrible Turks-TCs,Turkey and the remaining TCs will never accept the True Federation you are talking about,Kikapu...

So what is the point of denying the past,presenting themselves whiter than white, and insiting on the only solution,full democracy and majority rule with human rights etc,knowing well that would not be accepted...???

I think it is admirable that you need no other protection other than the GCs word that they have changed now and with the EU reality etc the TCs can kiss Turkey goodbye....But the average TC,new TC,and the average Turk of Cyprus will never buy it...I have thought about this a lot...You are not really helping things by never criticising the GC role in the past events....You are only re-enforcing their belief that they have done nothing wrong..That the TCs are just opportunistic ,heartless thieves who think nothing of leaving their ancestral homes to assist Turkey in her expantionist evil ambitions...I know you have personally been through traumatic eventsi n the 60s ,and wrote about them as well...But I don't understand your relactance to be open and objective about the past...Is it that you do not believe it is relevant??? do you really believe we can simply forget all that happened in the 50s and 60s and 70s and move on??? If we can do that why don't we just return on mass to the RoC controlled areas and live happily ever after??? By repeting the same old arguments about democracy and human rights and the EU membership etc you are becoming part of the obstacle towards a realistic solution.....That is not going to help you,me,or what is left of the TC community in Cyprus...

AS to the empathy and understanding,I beg to differ...Those who are our leaders are really our followers,if you know what I mean...I believe honesty,openness,empathy and respect should come from bottom up...Then our "leaders" will get in the front and do some leading,once there is enough ground swell of public opinion...do not expect them to say anything that will jeopardise their election prospects...As long as both sides keep engaging in a slagging match,it is your fault,no it is all yours,you are heartless,you are greedy etc, our leaders will take their ques from us...That is the nature of politics in the democratic age...

[Kikapu]

And as long as the GCs show no remorse and behave like total innocents hardly done by,by the terrible Turks-TCs,Turkey and the remaining TCs will never accept the True Federation you are talking about,Kikapu...

So what is the point of denying the past,presenting themselves whiter than white, and insiting on the only solution,full democracy and majority rule with human rights etc,knowing well that would not be accepted...???

I think it is admirable that you need no other protection other than the GCs word that they have changed now and with the EU reality etc the TCs can kiss Turkey goodbye....But the average TC,new TC,and the average Turk of Cyprus will never buy it...I have thought about this a lot...You are not really helping things by never criticising the GC role in the past events....You are only re-enforcing their belief that they have done nothing wrong..That the TCs are just opportunistic ,heartless thieves who think nothing of leaving their ancestral homes to assist Turkey in her expantionist evil ambitions...I know you have personally been through traumatic eventsi n the 60s ,and wrote about them as well...But I don't understand your relactance to be open and objective about the past...Is it that you do not believe it is relevant??? do you really believe we can simply forget all that happened in the 50s and 60s and 70s and move on??? If we can do that why don't we just return on mass to the RoC controlled areas and live happily ever after??? By repeting the same old arguments about democracy and human rights and the EU membership etc you are becoming part of the obstacle towards a realistic solution.....That is not going to help you,me,or what is left of the TC community in Cyprus...

AS to the empathy and understanding,I beg to differ...Those who are our leaders are really our followers,if you know what I mean...I believe honesty,openness,empathy and respect should come from bottom up...Then our "leaders" will get in the front and do some leading,once there is enough ground swell of public opinion...do not expect them to say anything that will jeopardise their election prospects...As long as both sides keep engaging in a slagging match,it is your fault,no it is all yours,you are heartless,you are greedy etc, our leaders will take their ques from us...That is the nature of politics in the democratic age...

Bir, as a young man, I use to play a lot of chess with my self alone. No, I do not mean on a chess computer game, but on a regular board. I was able to play the black and the white pieces at the same time, which was very difficult to do, knowing what the other side's game plan was and try to counter it. I was able to shut myself off each time I played one side from the other. It took several days to weeks to finish the game. Well, I'm able to do the same thing here on the forum, because I do see the game that the GCs and TCs play on each other, just like that Chess board I played on many years ago. This might give you an insight on how I look at things here on the forum which means that I see things from both sides, but being a TC, I talk about things what I want for the TCs if they are really interested in a unified Cyprus and a better future for their children as well as criticize them too when warranted.

And as long as the GCs show no remorse and behave like total innocents hardly done by,by the terrible Turks-TCs,Turkey and the remaining TCs will never accept the True Federation you are talking about,Kikapu...

If I repeat myself, I apologise. At this point in time, there can be no systematic remorse, pity, empathy or understanding can be shown by either side as long as the war is going on. Can you give me any examples where parties or countries at war offer each other these companionate feelings. It would defeat the whole purpose of the war, don't you think. ? It is more like putting the cart before the horse, isn't it?. It just does not work that way. Despite this, wrong doings have been accepted by most on the forum of either side each side. What has it helped. Nothing, other than more abuse thrown at each other across the keyboards.

The True Federation is where it's at, Bir. There is nothing wrong with the True Federation concept as it is practised in the US, Germany, Switzerland despite being a Confederation states and Australia. This is after all what BBF is meant to be, a Federation. This is what Denktash agreed to with Makarios, so whether the TCs will go for it or not, is besides the point, but I do not believe the GCs are going to accommodate the TCs by allowing Turkey supreme control over the island through some cockamamie phoney peace deal like the Annan Plan which was a loose Confederation which our good Friend Bananiot admitted it was a Confederation 4 years after 2004. A loose Confederation will only serve Turkey's interest and not the TCs and all our TC NeoPartitionists friends here on the forum are no longer interested serving the TC community but Turkey's, as the case was proven this week with Turkey's proposals in what they demanded for a settlement.

So what is the point of denying the past,presenting themselves whiter than white, and insiting on the only solution,full democracy and majority rule with human rights etc,knowing well that would not be accepted...???

I don't know if anyone is denying the past as to what happened. We all know both the GCs and the TCs killed each other to achieve Enosis and Taksim with the help of foreign powers. As to who did what to whom and how many times or what came first, Enosis or Taksim is irrelevant at this point in time, because they were all intertwined as one, because the war still continues from those times, or else we would not be seeking a settlement.

Because we have already tried the failed system in the 1960's constitution by not having the above principles and look where it got us. Those who want permanent partition naturally want more of the same because the end result will be the same as the last one, only this time permanent partition will be easier along with recognition and maybe even EU membership as an added bonus.

I think it is admirable that you need no other protection other than the GCs word that they have changed now and with the EU reality etc the TCs can kiss Turkey goodbye....But the average TC,new TC,and the average Turk of Cyprus will never buy it...

Having lived 25 years under a True Federation in the USA and 5 years in a Federation government in Confederate country of Switzerland, I strongly believe the system works as the plan I drafted for Cyprus. In order for that Federation plan to work, you will need to have willing participants, and I have found out, that the TCs (Turkey) do not want a working system in the form of a True Federation because they really do not want to unify with the GCs if partition cannot be gotten at later stage which the Federation will not allow where as a loose Confederation would. Now Bir, you draw your own conclusions from what is that the TCs (Turkey) want and why.! As for security, it can be provided with a NATO force, which Turkey is a member and that they will have some troops also, if it's about security issues only. I think it is more than just security and is the reason why Turkey wants to be there. Besides, once the BBF is accepted, the old constitution's provisions will be void and new one's need to be agreed on what can be in the new constitution. Guarantorship will no longer be accepted. Britain accepts it, Greece accepts it, and Turkey will need to accept it too, or else there is no peace. Turkey's Guarantor rights are only in the present constitution, but as soon as it is opened to accommodate BBF, all betas are off. Perhaps in Turkey's view, Denktash made a mistake agreeing to BBF, but we are where we are now and Turkey will need to make changes also.

I have thought about this a lot...You are not really helping things by never criticising the GC role in the past events....You are only re-enforcing their belief that they have done nothing wrong..

It is always better to let those from their own community criticize their own people, just like what Bananiot and Miltiades does with the GCs, otherwise it will be like a merry go around with you GCS, you TCs, you GCs, you TCs, you GCs, you TCs. What is the point. Besides, you give me too much undeserved credit as having any influence on the GCs thinking if I choose to criticize my own peoples mistakes and not theirs. I let Bananiot and Miltiades do it, just because they can be more effective that I ever could. I thought your past one-two weeks slag match with Oracle and others would have thought you what I'm talking about.

That the TCs are just opportunistic ,heartless thieves who think nothing of leaving their ancestral homes to assist Turkey in her expantionist evil ambitions...

The above is a little bit over the top, but in a nut shell, don't you think the TC leadership and Turkey has built a corrupted society in the north over the last 30+ years where corruption runs from the top down to the average man on the street, whether the decent TCs would like it or not. The average TC has become victims themselves in the pool of corruption by being forced on them by taking and selling GCs properties, not to mention the ones who have done it for greed alone. We TCs were never like this before.

I know you have personally been through traumatic eventsi n the 60s ,and wrote about them as well...But I don't understand your relactance to be open and objective about the past...Is it that you do not believe it is relevant??? do you really believe we can simply forget all that happened in the 50s and 60s and 70s and move on???

Yes Bir, I and my family and neighbours from Küçük Kaymakli were in the front row as things started unfolding December of 1963, which you accurately stated that I have wrote about my experience from that era here on the forum, therefore I have not forgotten about the past nor will I ever, but also in my writings at the end, I've stated that I had moved on and that I wish for others to do the same. I did move on, as well as all my close family members despite losing loved ones in the conflict. I was lucky that I was able to leave Cyprus in 1964, but most of my family did not leave until 1967-68, and even they have moved on. By doing so, I'm in a very good place to see things very clearly rather than harping on the past. The future for me lies ahead and not in the past. I'm sorry for those who are stuck in the past with their painful memories haunting them today, which will obstruct their clear vision for the future. I've moved on from my experiences in 1963 and I'm more interested fresh new start for the TCs in the future in a True Democratic way than the ugly past. We all have a choice as to which road we want to take. I've chosen mine long ago as I thought you had chosen yours, but apparently you are still trying to find your way from the past events to the future. I wish you all the luck my friend, because time waits for no man. Today times are much different that the past, thanks to Cyprus being in the EU, or else I might too have your concerns whether to trust the GCs or not in a unified Cyprus. I felt at complete ease in my visit to the RoC couple of years ago and wrote about that experience too where I had many positive contacts with the GCs. You cannot brush aside what a major achievement has been made by Cyprus being in the EU which will peace to Cyprus and for the GCs and TCs to live under the EU principles, which was not possible in the 1960's. But it is here now, and that's why I have beliefs that there is a chance to start a new life in Cyprus under True Federation, True Democracy, Human Rights, International Laws and the EU Principles.

If we can do that why don't we just return on mass to the RoC controlled areas and live happily ever after??? By repeting the same old arguments about democracy and human rights and the EU membership etc you are becoming part of the obstacle towards a realistic solution.....That is not going to help you,me,or what is left of the TC community in Cyprus...

The answer is that the TCs are under the control of Turkey and the Fascists as well as being kept in isolation by their own leaders for over 30+ years as well as being told to be grateful for their saviours from the butchering GCs.. Even prisoners have a hard time living on the outside if they have been incarcerated for such a long time, and they had not even been brainwashed in thinking that they will be killed in an open society. Then you have the property issues, family members of having being labelled as a traitor if they were to move, as well as waiting and hoping for peace each passing year since 1974. As time goes by, people become very complacent and not very proactive. They go to the south to work, shop and have coffee with our friend Bananiot and vice versa. How many have been killed through all those crossings in the past 5 years or so, aside from DT's father in law , rest in peace, in the north.

AS to the empathy and understanding,I beg to differ...Those who are our leaders are really our followers,if you know what I mean...I believe honesty,openness,empathy and respect should come from bottom up...Then our "leaders" will get in the front and do some leading,once there is enough ground swell of public opinion...do not expect them to say anything that will jeopardise their election prospects...As long as both sides keep engaging in a slagging match,it is your fault,no it is all yours,you are heartless,you are greedy etc, our leaders will take their ques from us...That is the nature of politics in the democratic age...

I'm sorry my friend, but what you are talking about is empathy coming from the bottom up in an open society and in peace time, not at the time of war. Today we have a war and not peace. Having the flag on the mountain as in, in-your-face in no peace, keeping Verosa locked up which no one can use, is no peace, selling of GCs properties, is no peace, Turkey directing how Cyprus should be, is no peace, the north being kept in isolation, is no peace, the TCs not having international voice in the form of the RoC, is no peace, so Bir, if their is NO PEACE, then how can you expect any empathy or understanding from either side of the past or what is going on at present. Please give me an example where warring parties had anything good to say to each other collectively and not those on individual basis. It is Oxymoronic to expect warring parties to feel sorry for each others predicaments. Once the dust is settled, then you will see empathy and understand as the case has been between all countries who have fought and died, thousands of times worse than our Cyprus problem. What you want to do now is to push for a settlement where each individuals rights are respected, then come and tell me there is no empathy and understanding extended to the other side of what happened in the past. You are expecting too much for everyone to go to the streets to ask for forgiveness for their past demons. It has never happened that way in past conflicts and will not happen in Cyprus today. Maybe in May. I'll keep my fingers crossed my friend, but only if there is an agreed settlement, otherwise nothing will happen. I'm sorry to tell you the bad news, but I thought you already knew that already. Peace first, then the empathy and understanding of each others pains from the past, because right now, each one is only interested in their own pains and couldn't give a damn about others. That is a hard fact, but that's the way it is.

[-mikkie2-]

An excellent post Kikapu. You have articualted your thoughts well. I agree that empathy can't come from the bottom up. It is up to our leaders to demonstrate that they are prepared for peace and to work together for a better future for Cyprus.

If our leaders demostrate that we can move on, to forgive, to look to the future then the people will follow.

Unfortunately, I do not see that moment coming anytime soon. The problem is Turkey and the demands she makes on the behalf of the TC's. The TC's are caught in a viscious circle which I don't think that they will ever get out of. How can they escape it when they are made to feel and have to show so much gratitude to Turkey for saving them from us murderous and evil GC's?

Unfortunately, the leaders of the communities will not show the necessary leadership because they are not being allowed to, either by Turkey on the TC side and the hardline elements of the GC side.