Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

Part 2.

I don't agree with you logic here,Kikapu....You know how the GCs here treat Bananiot and,to a lesser extend,miltiades...I will not repeat their words and insults,but I am sure you are well aware...But the deniers cannot dismiss your words so lightly...Hence if you said what you believed were the GC faults,they will have to consider it,for the whole of 5 minutes at least,before they dismiss it...

So what you are saying, Bir, is that Bananiot should start criticizing the TCs from now on and not his own community as he has done so effectively, and if he did that, where would that leave Bananiot, as the great understanding human being that many TCs on this forum see him as. The reason why Bananiot gets a lot of praise from the TCs, it is because he dares to confront his own peoples wrong doings from the past. When I do it, I’m the bad guy. Do I sense double standards here.? My criticism of my community is what is happening today. I have already told you that I have moved on from the past events. I'm not interested what happened in the past other than it’s being part of my and the islands history, and nor me or you can change the past, but we still have a "shot" at the future. Once again, you give me too much credit for altering anyone’s thinking by not criticising the GCs past events. I'm done with the past. Having said that, what is it that you would want me to criticise the GCs at present about.?? Please give me some pointers in what is it that they are doing wrong that is outside the legal parameters of the International community in the UN and the EU.?? Lets hear some wrongs that the GCs are doing as we speak regarding the future of Cyprus, which happens to be an EU member so that I can address them. If they are against Democracy, Human Rights, International Laws and EU Principles, then I would be in their face, because I’m only interested as we are talking about the present and the future of Cyprus and not the past. I'm done with the past, just to repeat myself.!

Sure,there is corruption in the trnc,and I have often talked about it in the past...sometimes in very harsh terms...As you imply above it was not the fault of the TCs,it was forced upon them...The average decent TC has lost big time,Kikapu...I don't know what your personal experiences are,but in my family alone,2 of my Uncles who were already living in Nicosia pre 74 have refused to touch any refugee property...My other relatives,including the Auntie I share with Deniz,who became refugees themselves were only given a fraction of what they left behind...Most others who left before 74 got absolutely nothing for their properties in the South...The GC claim that all TCs got rich on refugee property is simply a myth...

My criticism are generally made to the "trnc" and all those who support the "trnc" 100%, like all our Fascist NeoPartitionist friends here on the forum and all the so called Turkish Newspapers who seem to lack any journalistic integrity or accuracy in their reporting, which Bayrak is no exception and by lesser "nationalist" who just like to pick fights with the GCs for the sake of it. I have always excluded the TC refugees from any attacks in the corrupted establishment of the north. I often separate the decent TCs from the Fascist and the settlers. But lets not kid ourselves, that many TCs who had gotten refugee homes have also bought up a lot of stolen GC land in the north as well as many TCs from the UK and else where. I wrote about my cousin's husband gloating about his purchases of GC properties in the north. He is not alone and it is these morally corrupted individuals who have been also an obstacle to finding a Fair & Just settlement, because they would lose it all, so they prefer anything but a Fair & Just peace plan. To them, Annan Plan was their ticket to keep most of the GCs land and have a partition at the same time in the form of a Confederate states with the "virgin birth" concept. That was voted down by 55.5% vs. 44.5% by all those who voted, and in my personal opinion, that was the right result.

My mother's parents land was divided by 5 children and 4 of them “exchanged” for GC land but my mother kept her deeds for the land in the south and refused to take part by taking GC land. As you have noted, she is not alone, as your family has done the same. Many families have done the same. But that's not to say, today, there isn’t a large amount of dealings that goes on in the north that is GC land. VP is only happy to tell you it is the case. Why do you think he is after a Annan Plan kind of a settlement. He has family members who are holding GC lands and I do not mean "exchange" even though he claims not to have any himself, which is very hard to believe knowing his partitionist stand.

There is no doubt you have moved on,Kikapu and that is very commendable...But do you believe the average TC represented by Viewpoint also moved on??? And when you say your close relatives have all moved on,what exactly do you mean??? Are they prepared to return to Cyprus and live with our GC compatriots if a solution is not found??? If not why not? If yes,why haven't they done so till now???I am assuming from your writings that most of your close family live overseas....Please correct me if I am wrong...

Yes my friend, I have moved on and so has all my close family members. We do not harbour any bad feelings towards anyone despite losing members from our extended family in the conflict, but then again, who hasn't from both sides on a small island like Cyprus. All my family from my father's side are in the UK as well as my sister in Turkey. They have built their lives in those countries, therefore that's where they will stay. On my mother's side of the family, they mostly live in the north as well as one or two in the UK. I have moved to few countries in the last 46 years since leaving Cyprus at age 9 and for me, if I ever do move back, it will be at later stage of my life. But if I were to move today to the RoC, I wouldn't have any concerns what so ever regarding my personal safety or being treated differently from anyone else in the south. I owe all this to my two weeks in Cyprus back in 2007 where I met so many GCs and never felt uncomfortable after the first initial day or two, and that was no thanks to the Fascists on this forum bad mouthing the GCs and their treatment of the TCs in the south. As you know, I wrote about that experience here on the forum, just like you wrote your experience of your trip to the south in 2008. Today, if I were to choose between living in the RoC as a EU member state or living in the north's corrupted society created by the TC leaders for the TCs, I would choose the south. However, if there is a peace settlement based on True Federation with True Democracy, Human Rights, International Laws and EU Principles, I wouldn't care where I lived in Cyprus, because I know, that if the individual state would fail my rights, the Federal Government won't. This is why we need a True Federation in Cyprus, just so that everyone's individual and constitutional rights will be protected.

Again I return to my couple analogy,because one of the partners have used the assets left behind and managed to build a nice home,and managed to join a club with a lot of benefits,how realistic is it to expect the estranged partner to return "home",before the remaining partner shows remorse and agrees to go to anger management or couple therapy???? True democracy,human rights,international law etc sounds great,but it will not get the TCs and Turkey to sign on the dotted line...So obviously a compromise interim solution is needed...Knowing this,and insisting on True Federation,as you put it,is it not as questionable as Talat's ( and Turkey's) recent proposals?

Well, I have already given you two answers on your "Husband & Wife" analogy as to why it is not a good example for what we have in Cyprus. But I want to hear what is your "interim" compromise for a settlement. Just how many Cypriots rights do you intend violating just to get the TCs to sign up.? Do any of these rights violations also include the TCs or is it only for the GCs.? How do you plan to convince the EU to go along with the violations of their own principles in order to violate the rights of many Cypriots.? What is it in for the GCs to have their rights violated just to please the TCs.? They didn't like it in 1960, so why would they want it today when they have a complete control of the RoC legally, politically and economically, not to mentions yesterday's Orams case results. Can you give me one good reason why they would do all that, just to please the TCs (Turkey) when in fact any attempt like that gives them no guarantee of a better future, even if they did get some land back. I have given you my BBF power sharing proposals which is very balanced for both sides, which is where we TCs need to start thinking of achieving with the GCs. It will be a win-.win for everyone if a genuine unification is what we all want. If not, than it is a bad plan, as VP told me so, because it does not give the north to be pure TC (Turkey) and also does not allow partition at will. Now, you tell me who doesn't want to unify and who does between the GCs and the TCs.!

You are right in your sentiments here,Kikapu....The only thing I will question is your method of approaching/appealing to the TCs...Knowing what you know,what makes you think hitting the TCs on the head with the democracy and human rights stick is going to change their minds about accepting Turkey's total removal from the picture???

It's the only language the NeoPartitonist understand. They need to be told over and over again that the Annan Plan of 2004 is not coming back, ever, so the alternative is to get a system under True Democracy and True Federation to safeguard all their concerns and interests. Turkey just wants to cover her own interests, so telling the TCs that, unless they are there to be protected by them, they will become "dead meat" is something the TCs and Turkey will need to sort out between them. After the past events, the GCs will never give Turkey any rights to intervene. Turkey has a bad track record in that area, along with Greece and the UK. Let NATO forces in to provide security for all until they are no longer needed, even if it takes 100 years.

I am sorry,Kikapu,saying lets have peace first and empathy and compassion will follow is like saying lets have the wedding first and love and passion will follow...

Well, that's how it use to be in the past, wasn’t it ? Well, at least with the TCs and the Turks and almost all Muslim countries. Still the case with many countries as well as in Turkey and in the TC community.!

The 2 sides do not trust each other...They do not respect each other...They have very little understanding and sympathy for each other...They are deeply suspicious of each other's motives and good intentions...How can you possibly expect this union to work without some ground work,building bridges,improving trust and understanding...????

Given the above, Bir, how do you expect them to have love and passion before the wedding.??

No, what will get these two sides together initially is an offer of Just & Fair settlement which will benefit each side economically and politically if they truly want to remain as a "couple", and the True Federation will be a system where the two sides will be joint at the hip to each other. With such a method where everything is in the open as an open society, more and more trust will build over time, then they will give each other all the empathy and understand of their past mistakes to each other. You are expecting too much for empathy and understanding to happen when at the moment because they only care about their own miseries and not the miseries of others. I wish I was wrong, but since what you wish for has not already happened on a very large scale, it still has a long way to go before it does.

[boulio]

Thank you for your sensitivity,dear Pyro...
Our friend boulio exemplifies why we are where we are,and why it will be almost impossible to solve Cyprob...And he is not alone...Unlike you and me,he is incapable of showing empathy and compasson to the "other" side...His mind is made up,his people are the only ones who REALLY suffered,and any mention of the other's pain or suffering makes him see red...The fact that he seems to know my earlier posts makes it worse for him...He does not want to hear anybody else's plight unless in the same breath you mention his people's plight as well,which he consideres to be so serious that no other plight must be allowed to enter into the equation...He doesn't realise that I am the same person,the person he cheered on when I was talking about the things he wanted to hear...It is my realisation that the GCs and some mainland Greeks as well has really no idea about the pain and loss of the TCs in this conflict which made me start talking about my community's experiences...Yet,I feel I can't be too hard on bulio,I have no idea where he is coming from...He might know people with personal trauma associated with our little conflict,or he might be a product of the brainwashing and hate mongering system we know so well from our own experiences....

I show empathy for both sides it just seems you keep reflecting your suffuring and no one elses.I never cheered you or anyone else on for that matter.WHat exactly did i want to hear?your previous post were balanced which is what i like to see in the cyprus problem.iT seems now that you keep bringing up your pain and suffuring and that is it.And im far from brainwashed i now the resposibilites and faults of my country and certain g/c that led to this mess.do you now your communities and motherlands faults and respobilites for there actions in this mess?Do you even acknowladge them or shall i call you pompous again?

[denizaksulu]

... it may surprise you to know that a lot of land exists in the North as well as the South that has always been owned by Turkish Cypriots.That comes as a surprise to a lot of people who believe only the GC's owned land................not so.

Of course the TCs have their own (carefully guarded) homes and land ... which is why they 'sell' those belonging to the GCs ....

Todays calendar entry reads:

"if you add to the truth, (in reality) it subtracts.

I like it.

That would depend on what you add.

For example, how would you define the above "always been owned by the TCs", huh?

Huh! ???

I was not referrring to anything. I thought you'd like it.

If I presented you with a bunch of flowers, would you say 'my grandad is not dead, why do you bring these? or say how nice of you. Wimin huh!!

[denizaksulu]

... it may surprise you to know that a lot of land exists in the North as well as the South that has always been owned by Turkish Cypriots.That comes as a surprise to a lot of people who believe only the GC's owned land................not so.

Of course the TCs have their own (carefully guarded) homes and land ... which is why they 'sell' those belonging to the GCs ....

Todays calendar entry reads:

"if you add to the truth, (in reality) it subtracts.

I like it.

That would depend on what you add.

For example, how would you define the above "always been owned by the TCs", huh?

'Always'? how long is a piece of string?

From whom did the Greek immigrants get Cyprus from? Methinks you are still celebrating!!

[Get Real!]

The reason why Bananiot gets a lot of praise from the TCs, it is because he dares to confront his own peoples wrong doings from the past. When I do it, I’m the bad guy. Do I sense double standards here.?

NO!

Not Bir!!! Surely not!

[Pyrpolizer]

Good post, but I find it hard to believe GCs did know anything about TC suffering and being treated as second class citizens, was it because they turn a blind eye to what was going on therefore supporting the actions of eoka and the GC leaders.

Turning a blind eye.....

OK let me explain you: if you ever have read that cyprus-conflict web site the very first chapter refers to how people develop a group consciousness. The basic procedure is from first hand experiences and sentiments and selective information.

Let's take the events of bloody Christmas. As I posted earlier (taken from the Cyprus conflict web site ) we had 136 TC dead or assumed dead, and some 35(?) GCs. The events to the GC ears came "as troubles" and lots of killings. Upto this point the feeling of GC group consciousness gets filled up that the Turks are causing us troubles, they killed our people we also killed theirs.They kicked us out of Trachonas and Omorfita we also kicked them out from Koshi(?) and xxx. Remember it was a few villages within the first 10 days that those events lasted.

Then during the years lots of people from your side go into enclaves (1/4 of the total, about 25,000), abandoning almost every small village and concentrating to bigger ones. (The web site of Denktash says more than 100 villages). Abandoning was for various reasons, attacks by GC paramilitaries, fear, threads, but also with TMT actions and stirring.
What comes to GC ears is not how those homeless TC people lived, packed in those enclaves, and certainly not a word on how the hell the were forced to move. The only info coming to GC ears repeatedly was they are trying to create a state within a state. So the average GC thinks let them go to their enclaves at least we will not have any further troubles from them.

Then we had the Kofinou events. Again taken from the Cyprus-conflict web side, kofinou was the crossroad towards 3 towns: Nicosia, Limassol, Larnaca. Tcs got control of the hills around Kofinou and were shooting at the GC cars passing by. To our ears again the Turks were causing a lot of trouble there killing innocent travelers. General Grivas attacks Kofinou. All your fighters escape leaving behind only the elderly. Grivas' soldiers start killing everyone they find inside Kofinou. But who did they find? Only old people...
To GC ears come the news that General Grivas finally rescued us from those lunatics shooting at innocent GC travellers
To TC ears come the news that those barbarians know nothing else other than killing 99 year old men lying in their beds. In fact in your museum of barbarity you still have the photo of that poor 99 year old man at Kofinou, no?

Of course those events were not happening every day. In fact if I am not mistaken the major events were the Christmas of 1963 and later the Kofinou events and the Kokkina (Red Villages) events each one of which lasted for a few days. For the kokkina events all that came to Gc consciousness were the photos of the burned bodies of GCs in 3 villages from the Air shelling of the Turkish fighter planes using Napalm bombs. I really don't know how the Kokkina events were added to TC group consiousness, but I guess it must have been a glorious day for you as you celebrate the events until today.

Anyway this is how each side builted its own group consciousness, by seeing at completely different sides of the story.

Then we had the 1974 invasion. To your ears it was saving your lives from Samson, it was your liberation, but also the success of your long "struggle". To our ears and eye withnessing though it was hell.

I personally never expect any TC to fully understand the events of 1974 and the impact they had on GCs. It's unrealistic. A TC did not live through it the same way, he did not have the experiences of a GC during that time. Perhaps he heard something,in the news, in the foreign press or TVs.But for him what he heard was allien to his group concsiousness and most propably he had to dismiss it.
Could I ever accuse a TC for that?

The only thing I can do is just congratulate people from both sides who challenged their own group concousness and tried to learn from various sources the hardships of the other community and how today they stand as a different group of consciousness. And as Birkibrisli said, just show some empathy, that's enough. Don't expect a GC to fully understand what a TC has passed through, neither expect a TC to do the same.

In any case, imo the Cyprus problem today is not the same as it was in the 60s. Today it's by 90% a matter of properties, as simple as that.

[Expatkiwi]

Good post, but I find it hard to believe GCs did know anything about TC suffering and being treated as second class citizens, was it because they turn a blind eye to what was going on therefore supporting the actions of eoka and the GC leaders.

Turning a blind eye.....

OK let me explain you: if you ever have read that cyprus-conflict web site the very first chapter refers to how people develop a group consciousness. The basic procedure is from first hand experiences and sentiments and selective information.

Let's take the events of bloody Christmas. As I posted earlier (taken from the Cyprus conflict web site ) we had 136 TC dead or assumed dead, and some 35(?) GCs. The events to the GC ears came "as troubles" and lots of killings. Upto this point the feeling of GC group consciousness gets filled up that the Turks are causing us troubles, they killed our people we also killed theirs.They kicked us out of Trachonas and Omorfita we also kicked them out from Koshi(?) and xxx. Remember it was a few villages within the first 10 days that those events lasted.

Then during the years lots of people from your side go into enclaves (1/4 of the total, about 25,000), abandoning almost every small village and concentrating to bigger ones. (The web site of Denktash says more than 100 villages). Abandoning was for various reasons, attacks by GC paramilitaries, fear, threads, but also with TMT actions and stirring.
What comes to GC ears is not how those homeless TC people lived, packed in those enclaves, and certainly not a word on how the hell the were forced to move. The only info coming to GC ears repeatedly was they are trying to create a state within a state. So the average GC thinks let them go to their enclaves at least we will not have any further troubles from them.

Then we had the Kofinou events. Again taken from the Cyprus-conflict web side, kofinou was the crossroad towards 3 towns: Nicosia, Limassol, Larnaca. Tcs got control of the hills around Kofinou and were shooting at the GC cars passing by. To our ears again the Turks were causing a lot of trouble there killing innocent travelers. General Grivas attacks Kofinou. All your fighters escape leaving behind only the elderly. Grivas' soldiers start killing everyone they find inside Kofinou. But who did they find? Only old people...
To GC ears come the news that General Grivas finally rescued us from those lunatics shooting at innocent GC travellers
To TC ears come the news that those barbarians know nothing else other than killing 99 year old men lying in their beds. In fact in your museum of barbarity you still have the photo of that poor 99 year old man at Kofinou, no?

Of course those events were not happening every day. In fact if I am not mistaken the major events were the Christmas of 1963 and later the Kofinou events and the Kokkina (Red Villages) events each one of which lasted for a few days. For the kokkina events all that came to Gc consciousness were the photos of the burned bodies of GCs in 3 villages from the Air shelling of the Turkish fighter planes using Napalm bombs. I really don't know how the Kokkina events were added to TC group consiousness, but I guess it must have been a glorious day for you as you celebrate the events until today.

Anyway this is how each side builted its own group consciousness, by seeing at completely different sides of the story.

Then we had the 1974 invasion. To your ears it was saving your lives from Samson, it was your liberation, but also the success of your long "struggle". To our ears and eye withnessing though it was hell.

I personally never expect any TC to fully understand the events of 1974 and the impact they had on GCs. It's unrealistic. A TC did not live through it the same way, he did not have the experiences of a GC during that time. Perhaps he heard something,in the news, in the foreign press or TVs.But for him what he heard was allien to his group concsiousness and most propably he had to dismiss it.
Could I ever accuse a TC for that?

The only thing I can do is just congratulate people from both sides who challenged their own group concousness and tried to learn from various sources the hardships of the other community and how today they stand as a different group of consciousness. And as Birkibrisli said, just show some empathy, that's enough. Don't expect a GC to fully understand what a TC has passed through, neither expect a TC to do the same.

In any case, imo the Cyprus problem today is not the same as it was in the 60s. Today it's by 90% a matter of properties, as simple as that.

"as simple as that".... Yes, it is as simple as that, and yet the problem is not a simple one to solve. What you wrote here, Pyrpolizer, is a very astute analysis of the situation. But what to do as a result of all of this is another matter. If one thing can be ascertained from all of what happened, it is that either side does not trust each other, and trust is the important thing to have if the option of unification is to have any chance. That's why IMHO the option of partition should be properly considered. That way, trust can be slowly be reestablished through friendly non-confrontational inter-Cypriot trade, which will break down such barrietrs, and which could well lead to reconciliation some years down the road (like Yemen did with the merging of the Yemen Arab Republic and the Democratic Republic of Yemen).

[Pyrpolizer]

You are right Expat, there is no trust at the moment.
That's why at the negotiations which btw are actually now running on an intensive basis this month they try to cover every detail, so that in case of agreement nobody could cheat each other.
The question is what other option do we have? Imo none.

In your opinion it's the option of partition.
I tell you what. If the TC side really wanted partition, they could of get it very easily through unilateral returning of land. They could of have started returning land until they get down to 18%, half the GC refugees would go home, the other half get the properties of TCs who left and finito!
They would get recognition within a year, and use their friends in the EU and USA to force the stubborn GCs to sign acceptance too.
Now you tell me why they don't do it?

Do they want to negotiate it? Negotiate what? I explained many times in this forum that politically it would be a suicide for the GC side to sit on negotiations for partition. So the only way to get partition is for the Turkish/Tc side to act unilaterally.
So once again I ask. Why don't they do it?

[Lit]

Various forumers have stated ignorance about the Cyprus Problem and the level of debate in Cyprob can be none too revealing for those wanting a basic nuts and bolts account.

This youtube gives a simple summary of the real reasons we still have a CyProb and why we GCs, get so worked up when we hear so much Turkish propaganda taking precedent over the simple facts ...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sjnreEUfWrM

Watch this fat GC try to talk in American English about spending 50/100 million dollars on buying support.

you're just mad that a lot of Greek Cypriot refugees who left in 74 and came to the States made something out of themselves. You would have loved it if they remained penniless and shoeless still begging for your cooperation. Please, Mr. VP, can I please go back to my humble Cherikidian home?

No weak knees from GCs in the States. We are just a different breed.

Philip Christopher is the face of the Cypriot community in the States. Not only is his English fine but he has one of the top 300 privately owned companies in the entire United States. He has given back more than you can possibly imagine. His actions speak volumes. He supports Cypriots in the States and helps them find work. Take note of his new endeavor…he in corporation with companies from the RoC will create a program whereby students from both countries get to work and reside briefly in the other's country. Cypriot American student going to the ROC and vice versa.

And on top of all this…he regularly visits the Vice President and Foreign Minister of the these United States.

The name is Philip Christopher….get to know it as you will be hearing a whole lot from this individual.

[Pyrpolizer]

Just a bit of more info for Expat:

One of the GC experts at the negotiations is Mr Tselepis. I remember he was asked once by journalists about the option of partition. He said this:
This option can be "bought". And I assure you the selling price will be very high.