Cyprus-Forum.com

[Tim Drayton]

Btw i consider those thoughts that the occupied part of Cyprus will be flooded by millions of settlers as "a fear spreading tactic". We know very well there are about 80-100K settlers right now compared to about 70-80K original TC's. The vast majority of those settlers came because they were given free properties homes and and lands. There are no more free homes properties and lands to give them...The economy cannot absorb any more cheap labourers from Turkey...

Average wages in north Cyprus are much higher than in Turkey. That is what is driving the flow of people nowadays.

Ok but do they become permanent residents? Could you please give us your estimates?

So hard to say. I suspect that a small portion eventually do. They can become TRNC citizens after five years' residence. The evidence of my own eyes as one who has been an occasional visitor to north Cyprus over the past 15 years is that it seems a great deal more crowded nowadays, and the proportion of mainlanders to indigenous Turkish Cypriots is higher. One can only guess as to who are TRNC citizens, who are Republic of Turkey citizens with official residence, who are working there illegally, who are students at the many universities and who are just tourists. There is no hard, reliable data.

[YFred]

Yeah Stella mou but it was his DAD who gave him the Granade... it was not something political coming from the TMT it was a matter of life or death for a whole family.And the poor boy had the trigger in his hand... that's schocking...

Empathy should go without saying in this matter, come on guys.

I thought he said his dad was in the TMT ....

(I find the whole episode abhorrent and despise all those who torture the weak and young. It is the saddest aspect of our primitive instincts ... )

Yes he was, what i meant it was not part of the political maneuver or of the official TMT fear spreading policy. Jeez you don't do such things on purpose to your own family.

Read his statement. Sounds like his father wasn't "conventional" in any sense ...

I feel for BirKibrisli, personally, and as a mother of a 12 year old.

My hate is for the members of the TMT who destroyed Cyprus by destroying their own people ... including children, in this manner exemplified by Bir!

Oracle,
My father,being a school teacher,had little choice in the matter...The TMT was formed to counter The EOKA...We sincerely believed our lives were in danger....That sooner or later the EOKA would turn their weapons on us,TCs...All over the island and very much in a hurry cells of underground fighters were formed...In each local area the job of organising and commanding the local branch fell on the school teachers...Father was not the only one...The TMT had a lot of faults and it is true the organisation was used By Denktash,who was amongst the 4 original founders of the TMT,to advance his Taksim cause,but I have no idea if I would be alive today if it wasnt for the TMT either...Because there was a concentrated attack on our Nicosia enclave by GC fighters,and only the TMT guns and training made it possible for the TCs to keep them at bay...would they have killed the children,raped the women and girls,had they overrun our positions,we will never know...But Father obviously believed they would,hence his instructions to me...This is why i keep harping on about nothing being black and white in this conflict...I understand that you do not want to accept that your side can be capable of the attrocities you so rightly condemn,but whenever you come out and attack the Turkish soldiers and the TCs you are rubbing salt in the wounds of others who have been on the receiving side...My experiences were not amongst the worse...Others have seen and experienced much more horrifying things,on both sides....But I had my fair share of them...

By the way,I described elsewhere how my father fell out with the TMT,largely because he didnt approve of their political and other less savoury activities...Believe it or not FAther was NOT for Partition...He believed we could make a good go of becoming one people one nation eventually...while he was trying to leave the TMT they set him up in a restaurant and a hitman turned up to kill Father...By some miracle he turned out to be one of my father's star recruits from some years earlier,so Father lived...To be fair,TMT denied the orders came from above,and blamed the local commander who had a personal grudge against Father... I didn't believe that for a long time but evidence have come my way during the last few years which points the finger at the local TMT man...Anyway,after than incident Father was allowed to leave TMT,and by 1963 he was no longer a member....

As you can imagine I dont like talking about these personal experiences very much...I mentioned the handgrenade incident to convince GR and perhaps others,that without the real fear installed in the TCs by the events of 63/64 the TMT had no chance of forcing anyone to leave their homes and seek shelter in enclaves,just to advance the TMT cause...There were also massacres of 3 entire TC villages which didnt help matters much...These are not propaganda points,they are facts Oracle...You can deny them,bu that will not change anything...My generation of Cypriots was probably the unluckiest...We were not even allowed to be children...I have a 10 year old son now,and sometimes I look at his life and envy it...His biggest point of stress is how many hours of Nintendo or playstation games he is allowed to play in a week...And I never bought him a toy gun,he is not allowed to play with them...

Bir, learn to write that in brail and sign language and you may just get through to Oracle. We have witnesses who lived those times and she prefers to attack them endlessly. Well she can and we will defend ourselves just like our fathers did in 63. It was not just TMT that defended the TCs, lots of ordinary folk had to do it too.

[Pyrpolizer]

Yeah Stella mou but it was his DAD who gave him the Granade... it was not something political coming from the TMT it was a matter of life or death for a whole family.And the poor boy had the trigger in his hand... that's schocking...

Empathy should go without saying in this matter, come on guys.

I thought he said his dad was in the TMT ....

(I find the whole episode abhorrent and despise all those who torture the weak and young. It is the saddest aspect of our primitive instincts ... )

Yes he was, what i meant it was not part of the political maneuver or of the official TMT fear spreading policy. Jeez you don't do such things on purpose to your own family.

Read his statement. Sounds like his father wasn't "conventional" in any sense ...

I feel for BirKibrisli, personally, and as a mother of a 12 year old.

My hate is for the members of the TMT who destroyed Cyprus by destroying their own people ... including children, in this manner exemplified by Bir!

Oracle,
My father,being a school teacher,had little choice in the matter...The TMT was formed to counter The EOKA...We sincerely believed our lives were in danger....That sooner or later the EOKA would turn their weapons on us,TCs...All over the island and very much in a hurry cells of underground fighters were formed...In each local area the job of organising and commanding the local branch fell on the school teachers...Father was not the only one...The TMT had a lot of faults and it is true the organisation was used By Denktash,who was amongst the 4 original founders of the TMT,to advance his Taksim cause,but I have no idea if I would be alive today if it wasnt for the TMT either...Because there was a concentrated attack on our Nicosia enclave by GC fighters,and only the TMT guns and training made it possible for the TCs to keep them at bay...would they have killed the children,raped the women and girls,had they overrun our positions,we will never know...But Father obviously believed they would,hence his instructions to me...This is why i keep harping on about nothing being black and white in this conflict...I understand that you do not want to accept that your side can be capable of the attrocities you so rightly condemn,but whenever you come out and attack the Turkish soldiers and the TCs you are rubbing salt in the wounds of others who have been on the receiving side...My experiences were not amongst the worse...Others have seen and experienced much more horrifying things,on both sides....But I had my fair share of them...

By the way,I described elsewhere how my father fell out with the TMT,largely because he didnt approve of their political and other less savoury activities...Believe it or not FAther was NOT for Partition...He believed we could make a good go of becoming one people one nation eventually...while he was trying to leave the TMT they set him up in a restaurant and a hitman turned up to kill Father...By some miracle he turned out to be one of my father's star recruits from some years earlier,so Father lived...To be fair,TMT denied the orders came from above,and blamed the local commander who had a personal grudge against Father... I didn't believe that for a long time but evidence have come my way during the last few years which points the finger at the local TMT man...Anyway,after than incident Father was allowed to leave TMT,and by 1963 he was no longer a member....

As you can imagine I dont like talking about these personal experiences very much...I mentioned the handgrenade incident to convince GR and perhaps others,that without the real fear installed in the TCs by the events of 63/64 the TMT had no chance of forcing anyone to leave their homes and seek shelter in enclaves,just to advance the TMT cause...There were also massacres of 3 entire TC villages which didnt help matters much...These are not propaganda points,they are facts Oracle...You can deny them,bu that will not change anything...My generation of Cypriots was probably the unluckiest...We were not even allowed to be children...I have a 10 year old son now,and sometimes I look at his life and envy it...His biggest point of stress is how many hours of Nintendo or playstation games he is allowed to play in a week...And I never bought him a toy gun,he is not allowed to play with them...

And this is the ABSOLUTE truth dear Bir, and every GC knows it. The GC fanatics and paramilitarists did all the job. Instead of embracing the TC community with trust and understanding we delivered the common TC people suffering scared and wounded to the hands and objectives of the TMT. TMT did not really have to move a finger.

The other truth is that the vast majority of GC people knew nothing about it. All the knew was that the TCs have caused "troubles" again. "troubles", "troubles" "troubles" but we didn't know exactly what were those "troubles".
When I was 12 my father was forcing me to read the newspaper every day and at night he would question me what have I learned. There was absolutely nothing in the newspapers about the TCs, only some vague things about talks between Makarios, Denktash and Kutchuk that I couldn't understand anyway... There was nothing on the one and only TV channel, nothing on the one and only radio station.
There were only some Greek language commentaries on Bayrak radio from some idiotic TC who was scaring the GCs to death with some preaches like we will take your teeth out we, will kill you and your babies, just wait and see the time will come etc. The only thing this idiot was doing was spreading fear and hate.

There was NOBODY to explain the GC public what was going on. Only some very few people who lived in mixed villages or were living near TC villages knew some things...

When 1974 came the vast majority of GCs felt the way innocent victims feel, and couldn't understand a single iota of what happened to them. For them there was absolutely no excuse.

Such things could never have occured if we had the media we have today, the internet and so on...

[BirKibrisli]

Yeah Stella mou but it was his DAD who gave him the Granade... it was not something political coming from the TMT it was a matter of life or death for a whole family.And the poor boy had the trigger in his hand... that's schocking...

Empathy should go without saying in this matter, come on guys.

I thought he said his dad was in the TMT ....

(I find the whole episode abhorrent and despise all those who torture the weak and young. It is the saddest aspect of our primitive instincts ... )

Yes he was, what i meant it was not part of the political maneuver or of the official TMT fear spreading policy. Jeez you don't do such things on purpose to your own family.

Read his statement. Sounds like his father wasn't "conventional" in any sense ...

I feel for BirKibrisli, personally, and as a mother of a 12 year old.

My hate is for the members of the TMT who destroyed Cyprus by destroying their own people ... including children, in this manner exemplified by Bir!

Oracle,
My father,being a school teacher,had little choice in the matter...The TMT was formed to counter The EOKA...We sincerely believed our lives were in danger....That sooner or later the EOKA would turn their weapons on us,TCs...All over the island and very much in a hurry cells of underground fighters were formed...In each local area the job of organising and commanding the local branch fell on the school teachers...Father was not the only one...The TMT had a lot of faults and it is true the organisation was used By Denktash,who was amongst the 4 original founders of the TMT,to advance his Taksim cause,but I have no idea if I would be alive today if it wasnt for the TMT either...Because there was a concentrated attack on our Nicosia enclave by GC fighters,and only the TMT guns and training made it possible for the TCs to keep them at bay...would they have killed the children,raped the women and girls,had they overrun our positions,we will never know...But Father obviously believed they would,hence his instructions to me...This is why i keep harping on about nothing being black and white in this conflict...I understand that you do not want to accept that your side can be capable of the attrocities you so rightly condemn,but whenever you come out and attack the Turkish soldiers and the TCs you are rubbing salt in the wounds of others who have been on the receiving side...My experiences were not amongst the worse...Others have seen and experienced much more horrifying things,on both sides....But I had my fair share of them...

By the way,I described elsewhere how my father fell out with the TMT,largely because he didnt approve of their political and other less savoury activities...Believe it or not FAther was NOT for Partition...He believed we could make a good go of becoming one people one nation eventually...while he was trying to leave the TMT they set him up in a restaurant and a hitman turned up to kill Father...By some miracle he turned out to be one of my father's star recruits from some years earlier,so Father lived...To be fair,TMT denied the orders came from above,and blamed the local commander who had a personal grudge against Father... I didn't believe that for a long time but evidence have come my way during the last few years which points the finger at the local TMT man...Anyway,after than incident Father was allowed to leave TMT,and by 1963 he was no longer a member....

As you can imagine I dont like talking about these personal experiences very much...I mentioned the handgrenade incident to convince GR and perhaps others,that without the real fear installed in the TCs by the events of 63/64 the TMT had no chance of forcing anyone to leave their homes and seek shelter in enclaves,just to advance the TMT cause...There were also massacres of 3 entire TC villages which didnt help matters much...These are not propaganda points,they are facts Oracle...You can deny them,bu that will not change anything...My generation of Cypriots was probably the unluckiest...We were not even allowed to be children...I have a 10 year old son now,and sometimes I look at his life and envy it...His biggest point of stress is how many hours of Nintendo or playstation games he is allowed to play in a week...And I never bought him a toy gun,he is not allowed to play with them...

And this is the ABSOLUTE truth dear Bir, and every GC knows it. The GC fanatics and paramilitarists did all the job. Instead of embracing the TC community with trust and understanding we delivered the common TC people suffering scared and wounded to the hands and objectives of the TMT. TMT did not really have to move a finger.

The other truth is that the vast majority of GC people knew nothing about it. All the knew was that the TCs have caused "troubles" again. "troubles", "troubles" "troubles" but we didn't know exactly what were those "troubles".
When I was 12 my father was forcing me to read the newspaper every day and at night he would question me what have I learned. There was absolutely nothing in the newspapers about the TCs, only some vague things about talks between Makarios, Denktash and Kutchuk that I couldn't understand anyway... There was nothing on the one and only TV channel, nothing on the one and only radio station.
There were only some Greek language commentaries on Bayrak radio from some idiotic TC who was scaring the GCs to death with some preaches like we will take your teeth out we, will kill you and your babies, just wait and see the time will come etc. The only thing this idiot was doing was spreading fear and hate.

There was NOBODY to explain the GC public what was going on. Only some very few people who lived in mixed villages or were living near TC villages knew some things...

When 1974 came the vast majority of GCs felt the way innocent victims feel, and couldn't understand a single iota of what happened to them. For them there was absolutely no excuse.

Such things could never have occured if we had the media we have today, the internet and so on...

That's right,Pyro...Those were the dark times,and I am sure you are right when you say the average GC had no idea of what was going on...As you say we were delivered on a plate to the TMT,the only people we thought we could trust...The TMT was revered those days by the average TC...They were our freedom fighters...and saviours...

I just wish our so-called leaders had the courage to come out and admit their mistakes,and let all the truth come out...There are plenty of missing persons to be found still....Plenty of pain and loss to heal...Denials and accusations will only prolong our suffering...I read on Sevgul Uludag's facebook site the other day that some people were delivering threatening letters in the middle of night to all households in the TC village of Sinde (Inonu) warning people in the know not to tell the whereabouts of 17 missing GCs buried somewhere in that village...How stupid in this day and age...

[Kikapu]

I will take this up with Kikapu later in my response to his latest post to me,but I can give you a preview here,dear Pyro...Though I understand his logic,by never criticising the GC stands Kikapu has sort of neutralised himself in the TC eyes...His warnings fall on deaf ears,because his arguments are very similar to GC arguments...As far as the TCs are concerned he might as well be a GC issuing warnings...do you know what I mean???I am not passing judgement here on the quality of his "warnings"...I am talking about their effectiveness...
Anyway,time will tell...Hope we all stick around long enough to see what exactly time has to tell...

Bir, please do me a big favour and do not respond to my last post to you until I finish responding to your last part of your post to me, otherwise I'll end up responding to your latest and the latter will just get left behind. You deserve a response, so please be patient with me.. I will get to it as soon as possible......Thanks.!

[boulio]

So you are a mainland Greek? I am surprised that you have this mentality....The mentality is the one which makes you extra sensitive to the suffering of your own,but totally indifferent to the suffering of the others....The event I was describing happened sometime between Dec 63 and March 64...There was no Turkish raping of any women and girls at that time...But the bitterness and hatred in your heart towards all things Turkish and Turkish Cypriot makes you totally cold to the predicament of a 12 year old boy who, for some 48 hours, wandered around with a hangrenade in his pocket wondering whether he would have to pull the pin and kill himself, his mother and 3 sisters....And you are calling me pompous??? Thank you for showing your colours,.you are going onto my black list of people I will never respond to again... You dont belong to the human race,my friend...You are below contempt...

Are you stupid or just playing stupid?And the event that im describing happened from july 1974-august 1974 whats your point?there was suffering on both sides but for some reason you keep highlighting your suffuering and yes i admit the t/c may have suffered but so did the g/c and by constantly trying to elavate the t/c suffering to that of the g/c you are pompous and i could care less if you respond to me or not.

[YFred]

I will take this up with Kikapu later in my response to his latest post to me,but I can give you a preview here,dear Pyro...Though I understand his logic,by never criticising the GC stands Kikapu has sort of neutralised himself in the TC eyes...His warnings fall on deaf ears,because his arguments are very similar to GC arguments...As far as the TCs are concerned he might as well be a GC issuing warnings...do you know what I mean???I am not passing judgement here on the quality of his "warnings"...I am talking about their effectiveness...
Anyway,time will tell...Hope we all stick around long enough to see what exactly time has to tell...

Bir, please do me a big favour and do not respond to my last post to you until I finish responding to your last part of your post to me, otherwise I'll end up responding to your latest and the latter will just get left behind. You deserve a response, so please be patient with me.. I will get to it as soon as possible......Thanks.!

Keep up old boy, no slacking allowed. Back of the class room then.

[Pyrpolizer]

So you are a mainland Greek? I am surprised that you have this mentality....The mentality is the one which makes you extra sensitive to the suffering of your own,but totally indifferent to the suffering of the others....The event I was describing happened sometime between Dec 63 and March 64...There was no Turkish raping of any women and girls at that time...But the bitterness and hatred in your heart towards all things Turkish and Turkish Cypriot makes you totally cold to the predicament of a 12 year old boy who, for some 48 hours, wandered around with a hangrenade in his pocket wondering whether he would have to pull the pin and kill himself, his mother and 3 sisters....And you are calling me pompous??? Thank you for showing your colours,.you are going onto my black list of people I will never respond to again... You dont belong to the human race,my friend...You are below contempt...

Are you stupid or just playing stupid?And the event that im describing happened from july 1974-august 1974 whats your point?there was suffering on both sides but for some reason you keep highlighting your suffuering and yes i admit the t/c may have suffered but so did the g/c and by constantly trying to elavate the t/c suffering to that of the g/c you are pompous and i could care less if you respond to me or not.

Please STOP IT man!!!
You should of have apologized to Bir, on the first place.... I just forgive you because you don't know that Bir is NOT AT ALL what you say.

[boulio]

you should mind your own business PYRO.Like i said there is suffering on both communities not just one.And claiming that Bir is not at all what i say?do you know what Pompous even means?

[Viewpoint]

Yeah Stella mou but it was his DAD who gave him the Granade... it was not something political coming from the TMT it was a matter of life or death for a whole family.And the poor boy had the trigger in his hand... that's schocking...

Empathy should go without saying in this matter, come on guys.

I thought he said his dad was in the TMT ....

(I find the whole episode abhorrent and despise all those who torture the weak and young. It is the saddest aspect of our primitive instincts ... )

Yes he was, what i meant it was not part of the political maneuver or of the official TMT fear spreading policy. Jeez you don't do such things on purpose to your own family.

Read his statement. Sounds like his father wasn't "conventional" in any sense ...

I feel for BirKibrisli, personally, and as a mother of a 12 year old.

My hate is for the members of the TMT who destroyed Cyprus by destroying their own people ... including children, in this manner exemplified by Bir!

Oracle,
My father,being a school teacher,had little choice in the matter...The TMT was formed to counter The EOKA...We sincerely believed our lives were in danger....That sooner or later the EOKA would turn their weapons on us,TCs...All over the island and very much in a hurry cells of underground fighters were formed...In each local area the job of organising and commanding the local branch fell on the school teachers...Father was not the only one...The TMT had a lot of faults and it is true the organisation was used By Denktash,who was amongst the 4 original founders of the TMT,to advance his Taksim cause,but I have no idea if I would be alive today if it wasnt for the TMT either...Because there was a concentrated attack on our Nicosia enclave by GC fighters,and only the TMT guns and training made it possible for the TCs to keep them at bay...would they have killed the children,raped the women and girls,had they overrun our positions,we will never know...But Father obviously believed they would,hence his instructions to me...This is why i keep harping on about nothing being black and white in this conflict...I understand that you do not want to accept that your side can be capable of the attrocities you so rightly condemn,but whenever you come out and attack the Turkish soldiers and the TCs you are rubbing salt in the wounds of others who have been on the receiving side...My experiences were not amongst the worse...Others have seen and experienced much more horrifying things,on both sides....But I had my fair share of them...

By the way,I described elsewhere how my father fell out with the TMT,largely because he didnt approve of their political and other less savoury activities...Believe it or not FAther was NOT for Partition...He believed we could make a good go of becoming one people one nation eventually...while he was trying to leave the TMT they set him up in a restaurant and a hitman turned up to kill Father...By some miracle he turned out to be one of my father's star recruits from some years earlier,so Father lived...To be fair,TMT denied the orders came from above,and blamed the local commander who had a personal grudge against Father... I didn't believe that for a long time but evidence have come my way during the last few years which points the finger at the local TMT man...Anyway,after than incident Father was allowed to leave TMT,and by 1963 he was no longer a member....

As you can imagine I dont like talking about these personal experiences very much...I mentioned the handgrenade incident to convince GR and perhaps others,that without the real fear installed in the TCs by the events of 63/64 the TMT had no chance of forcing anyone to leave their homes and seek shelter in enclaves,just to advance the TMT cause...There were also massacres of 3 entire TC villages which didnt help matters much...These are not propaganda points,they are facts Oracle...You can deny them,bu that will not change anything...My generation of Cypriots was probably the unluckiest...We were not even allowed to be children...I have a 10 year old son now,and sometimes I look at his life and envy it...His biggest point of stress is how many hours of Nintendo or playstation games he is allowed to play in a week...And I never bought him a toy gun,he is not allowed to play with them...

And this is the ABSOLUTE truth dear Bir, and every GC knows it. The GC fanatics and paramilitarists did all the job. Instead of embracing the TC community with trust and understanding we delivered the common TC people suffering scared and wounded to the hands and objectives of the TMT. TMT did not really have to move a finger.

The other truth is that the vast majority of GC people knew nothing about it. All the knew was that the TCs have caused "troubles" again. "troubles", "troubles" "troubles" but we didn't know exactly what were those "troubles".
When I was 12 my father was forcing me to read the newspaper every day and at night he would question me what have I learned. There was absolutely nothing in the newspapers about the TCs, only some vague things about talks between Makarios, Denktash and Kutchuk that I couldn't understand anyway... There was nothing on the one and only TV channel, nothing on the one and only radio station.
There were only some Greek language commentaries on Bayrak radio from some idiotic TC who was scaring the GCs to death with some preaches like we will take your teeth out we, will kill you and your babies, just wait and see the time will come etc. The only thing this idiot was doing was spreading fear and hate.

There was NOBODY to explain the GC public what was going on. Only some very few people who lived in mixed villages or were living near TC villages knew some things...

When 1974 came the vast majority of GCs felt the way innocent victims feel, and couldn't understand a single iota of what happened to them. For them there was absolutely no excuse.

Such things could never have occured if we had the media we have today, the internet and so on...

Good post, but I find it hard to believe GCs did know anything about TC suffering and being treated as second class citizens, was it because they turn a blind eye to what was going on therefore supporting the actions of eoka and the GC leaders.