BirKibrisli wrote:Pyrpolizer wrote:Top class discussion here between Kikapu and Birkibrisli.
Excellent points from two different angles of view.
The only thing I would like to add is that every Cypriot is a different personality. Some people see the wrong doings of the other side only, understand their own suffering only, don’t care and don’t want to hear or understand anything that concerns the other side. Some people are just Turk or Greek haters. Their own side are Angels the other side are all Evil.
Some other people can extend their understanding and empathy to the other side. And some others chose to side with what their own side calls the "enemy". Expecting the majority of the people to develop empathy for the other community as a necessary pre-requisite for a solution like my friend Bir said, is a noble expectation but is against human nature.
My friend kikapu said this can only happen after a fair solution, but I don’t think that will happen either,even if the solution is fair for all. The percentages may increase, but the majority will still not have any empathy for the past sufferings for the other community.Simply because they never had first hand experience.
What I think will happen is that the majority from both sides will put the past behind, and start building bridges, empathy and understanding from there on.
That much for human nature. Expecting too much from the people will just make you crazy.
On the other hand here we have the concept of what the majority of the people think or want at a given time.
Imo anyone who will try to discover a way to make the majority think in a certain way will just end up crazy again. These things are completely uncontrollable. They change with the wind. Once upon a time 96% of the GCs wanted Enosis. Slowly slowly that changed. And it did not change because of the Turkish invasion it changed long before that when the Gcs discovered they can do much better economically than Greece. Money is honey you know…
Bir said VP represents the majority of TCs because the majority of them today want partition. Well so be it, however the majority of TCs in 2003-4 wanted unification no matter what.Imo if Christofias and Talat come to an agreement before April that will get at least 80% of the TC and GC vote. So where does that put VP? (to be honest I think VP will then be in that 80% forgetting about her partitionist friends)
Coming to the essense of my friends’ discussion which as I understood has to do with the red lines of each community: Imo each side has to take reasonable risks if a solution would ever be reached. Surely a confederation is not going to be accepted by GCs. Imo the TCs must take the reasonable risk of a strong Federation as exists in other countries. The risk here is that maybe the GCs will return en masse and spoil the very concept of bizonality and slowly slowly absorb the TCs. It’s an risk I know, but a reasonable one because the chance of this ever happening is very low.Very few GCs will ever chose to go back living lonely among TCs. Perhaps the risk taken by the TCs could be countered with another risk by the GCs by accepting quotas. The reasonable element in this risk for the GCs is that most propably the quota will never be reached.
Same goes for Turkey’s guarantees. It seems these are absolutely necessary for the TCs feeling of safety. If me as a GC would know those guarantees are not going to be used unilaterally to start a new war, and their mandate was within Nato, or together with some EU force, I could take the risk of accepting them for a limited period.(Certainly not for ever and certainly not until Turkey joins the EU). Countering the risk taken by the GCs, the TCs should also take the risk of the Turkish Guarantees not be purely Turkish but with some other accepted military power.
I am really incapable of understanding the fears of the TCs joining the GCs in a United Federal Cyprus in a strong federation. If the situation was the reverse and the TCs were in the EU already, with higher standard of living, and much better economy, me as a GC would risk my joining them without second thought, given the fact they already accepted my ruling the internal affairs of my Fed state, and the political equality of the Fed parts. I believe this risk has already been accepted by the TCs, and that those who now prefer partition are just skeptics, waiting to see if the final agreement is worthy enough.
Hello,dear PYRO...I was thinking about you the other day....I missed your logical,sensible,and compassionate approach to our Problem...I hope all is well with you and your loved ones...
As you so rightly point out,if there will be a solution it will be based on a compromise....both sides will have to dig deep and find some point in their red lines where they can give and take... The majority of the TCs lean towards Partition because they have deep suspicions of the GC motives...This is based on their past experiences and not,as certain people keep harping on,because they want Turkey to gain anything over GC's loss...When this point is truly appreciated by the GCs,I am sure the TCs will accept a Strong Federation,as long as their political supremecy and physical security are guaranteed,to their satisfaction...I know the GCs also have deep fears about the TC motivations...The fundamental probably beeing an intension to have Enosis with Turkey down the line...
Knowing the TC mentality I would say that is not a real possibility,especially after their experiences with the settlers over the past 30 years...The fact is,without a solution Partition or annexation by Turkey is a near certainty...It is one risk the GCs will have to take,otherwise what they fear will happen anyway....I hope I am making sense...
And please don't disappear again,dear compatriot...We need your calming influence and logical analysis more than ever on this Forum...
