Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Claims that we "made" you separate because we are Greeks are ridiculous. We were Greeks since before you came here!

And once again I did not say you made us seperate by you being ethnicaly greek, greek orthodox and speaking greek.

You made us seperate in terms of 'peoples' when you CHOSE to place being Greek before and above being Cypriot - enosis. This CHOICE is what removed the thing that could have been the greater commanality between us than our differences - being cypriot as a nation and allowed us to be a single people DESPITE our differences.

You could just as easily have maintained your Greek ethnicity, culture and heritage langauge and religion without choosing to place it before and above being cypriot - independance.

You were a separate ethnic group before and you would remain a separate ethnic group after. If what unites us is our common residence that would continue to be the case regardless of where Cyprus belongs, the Ottoman or British empires or the Greek Republic.

Claiming that we placed being Greek above being Cypriot is nonsense. Is like telling me that I am more Cypriot than Limassolian because I do not support the independence of Limassol. Or like telling me that we chose to place being European before and above being Cypriot because we joined the EU. Stop trying to diminish our Cypriotness. Maybe you personally are not fully Cypriot but the GCs of the 50s were nothing less than 100% Cypriots and nothing you say can change this fact.

[Pyrpolizer]

I am saying when a country emerges from colonialism, if there is a commonality of those that live there that binds them togeather as a people despite their differences then they are a single people. If however there is one group that defines themselves in terms that excludes the other group because they are part of a people elsewhere and denies the existance of that which could be the greater commonality between the two groups, then there are in reality two seperate peoples - and each with a seperate right to self determination.

I agree that the commonality binds them together, but i tend to disagree with your absolute statement that it makes them single people. It just helps for the development of a single people identity in the long run. In our case we are GCs and TCs but we know we cannot fully identify with the mainland Greeks or Turks. Many of us ( perhaps the majority-I am not sure) insist we are CYPRIOTS first and our national roots are not important.

So where do we go from that? Is it in our interest to strive towards the commonality of Cypriotism and create a Fed State based on that, or should we insist we are two completely separate people and hence strive towards partition? Bear in mind Denktash and Eroglu support the latter

Your opinions Erolz and Piratis?

[erolz3]

....but the GCs of the 50s were nothing less than 100% Cypriots and nothing you say can change this fact.

100% Cypriots that did not believe Cyprus should exist as a nation state. 100% Cypriots who did not believe that Cyprus should be run by Cypriots for Cypriots, that had no concern about Cyprus being run and controlled by people who were not Cypriots and lived hundreds of kilomenters away from Cyprus, because they were the same people as these non cypriots hundreds of kilometers away. 100% Cypriots who believed that they should not have or would ever need a seperate voice in the UN and other international organisations from a people who were not Cypriots, for they were off these non Cypriot people.

And that really is me done for now in this thread. Maybe 'see' you all again in a few more years when the memory of the futility of posting here has once again receeded enough to allow a fools hope to seem possible.

[Piratis]

....but the GCs of the 50s were nothing less than 100% Cypriots and nothing you say can change this fact.

100% Cypriots that did not believe Cyprus should exist as a nation state. 100% Cypriots who did not believe that Cyprus should be run by Cypriots for Cypriots, that had no concern about Cyprus being run and controlled by people who were not Cypriots and lived hundreds of kilomenters away from Cyprus, because they were the same people as these non cypriots hundreds of kilometers away. 100% Cypriots who believed that they should not have or would ever need a seperate voice in the UN and other international organisations from a people who were not Cypriots, for they were off these non Cypriot people.

And that really is me done for now in this thread. Maybe 'see' you all again in a few more years when the memory of the futility of posting here has once again receeded enough to allow a fools hope to seem possible.

100% Liverpudlians that did not believe Liverpool should exist as a nation state. 100% Liverpudlians who did not believe that Liverpool should be run by Liverpudlians for Liverpudlians, that had no concern about Liverpool being run and controlled by people who were not Liverpudlians and lived hundreds of kilomenters away from Liverpool, because they were the same people as these non Liverpudlians hundreds of kilometers away. 100% Liverpudlians who believed that they should not have or would ever need a seperate voice in the UN and other international organisations from a people who were not Liverpudlians, for they were off these non Liverpudlian people.

And I could do the same with just about any non independent city, village or island (and the vast majority of cities, villages and islands are not independent, but are part of a bigger country)

Different territories unite together to serve their collective interests. Otherwise we would still be in the era of city states. We are Cypriots but we are also Greek, and this is why uniting with the rest of Greeks to have a bigger stronger country made sense. The same reason why we joined the EU.

You wanted Cyprus to be "independent" so it will be isolated and an easy pray for you.

By the way, do you consider yourself 100% Cypriot?

[BirKibrisli]

Depressing as it might be,there is one clear message from this tread...for some GCs,probably the majority,the TCs will always remain as Ottoman remnants,the reminders of the dark and oppressive times...Hence our v ery existance is a provocation for these people,we must be got rid of at all cost...The demand for Enosis with Greece keeps making more and more sense now...That was an attempt to bring an end the presence in Cyprus of the TCs...No matter how they wrap it,how they paint it,this ugly truth stares us in the face...Moderates like myself,Pyro,miltiades,Bananiot,Kikapu,Mikkie,DT,Deniz,Nikitas,Kifeas,and a few others I might've forgotten to mention are bound to be very disappointed in the end...The goal of the majority of GCs in Cyprus is still the total elimination of the TCs from Cyprus...They are simply after revenge for the Ottoman times,and no sensible or logical arguments will make the slightest difference...I am very sorry that things have come to this...But whichever way I look at it,I cannot come to any other conclusion...There is little point in discussing anything any more...The battle lines are drawn,and it is fight to the death I am afraid...for Cyprus to be peaceful one side has to disappear completely...It is sad that in this day and age people can keep so much bitterness and hatred in their hearts for their compatriots...This will destroy everything that is good and humane in us...As our bloody past has proven...To the barricates,prepare for the final solution,it will come sooner or later...

[Piratis]

Depressing as it might be,there is one clear message from this tread...for some GCs,probably the majority,the TCs will always remain as Ottoman remnants,the reminders of the dark and oppressive times...Hence our v ery existance is a provocation for these people,we must be got rid of at all cost...The demand for Enosis with Greece keeps making more and more sense now...That was an attempt to bring an end the presence in Cyprus of the TCs...No matter how they wrap it,how they paint it,this ugly truth stares us in the face...Moderates like myself,Pyro,miltiades,Bananiot,Kikapu,Mikkie,DT,Deniz,Nikitas,Kifeas,and a few others I might've forgotten to mention are bound to be very disappointed in the end...The goal of the majority of GCs in Cyprus is still the total elimination of the TCs from Cyprus...They are simply after revenge for the Ottoman times,and no sensible or logical arguments will make the slightest difference...I am very sorry that things have come to this...But whichever way I look at it,I cannot come to any other conclusion...There is little point in discussing anything any more...The battle lines are drawn,and it is fight to the death I am afraid...for Cyprus to be peaceful one side has to disappear completely...It is sad that in this day and age people can keep so much bitterness and hatred in their hearts for their compatriots...This will destroy everything that is good and humane in us...As our bloody past has proven...To the barricates,prepare for the final solution,it will come sooner or later...

And yet again you are creating imaginary stories to excuse crimes against Greek Cypriots.

No mate, what we expect from you is to be equal Cypriots without any kind of racist privileges on our expense. You can be 100% equal individuals, and as a community you can have your minority rights just like it is in all other democratic countries in the world.

The era of the Ottomans is relevant only in that you unfortunately have not changed at all since then, and you still seek to divide the population in two groups so you can have gains and privileges on the expense of the majority.

Take the example of the Latins. During their rule of Cyprus you claim that they were worst than the Ottomans. And yet today they live together with us in peace as equal Cypriots. They are not trying to violate our rights anymore, they respect us and we respect them. They understand that as an ethnic group they are a minority, and they are not collaborating with foreign Imperialists trying to gain way more than their fair share on the expense of every other Cypriot.

There is really no point in discussing anything anymore if you think that your ethnic minority is some super special case among all other similar ethnic minorities in the whole world, that has the right to overwrite the human and democratic rights of every other Cypriot.

When you realize that what was given to you with the 1960 agreements and what you demand today in the negotiations are not things that an 18% minority deserves to have, but unfair and unjust gains on the expense of the majority of Cypriots extracted with your unethical collaboration with foreign Imperialists, then we can live together in this island in peace, in the say way we do it with all other minority ethnic groups in Cyprus.

But as long as you continue to collaborate with those foreign Imperialists, serving their interests in Cyprus and expecting the rewards they promise to you on our expense, then there is no chance in a billion that there will be peace between you and us on this island.

[Oracle]

Depressing as it might be,there is one clear message from this tread...for some GCs,probably the majority,the TCs will always remain as Ottoman remnants,the reminders of the dark and oppressive times...Hence our v ery existance is a provocation for these people,we must be got rid of at all cost...The demand for Enosis with Greece keeps making more and more sense now...That was an attempt to bring an end the presence in Cyprus of the TCs...No matter how they wrap it,how they paint it,this ugly truth stares us in the face...Moderates like myself,Pyro,miltiades,Bananiot,Kikapu,Mikkie,DT,Deniz,Nikitas,Kifeas,and a few others I might've forgotten to mention are bound to be very disappointed in the end...The goal of the majority of GCs in Cyprus is still the total elimination of the TCs from Cyprus...They are simply after revenge for the Ottoman times,and no sensible or logical arguments will make the slightest difference...I am very sorry that things have come to this...But whichever way I look at it,I cannot come to any other conclusion...There is little point in discussing anything any more...The battle lines are drawn,and it is fight to the death I am afraid...for Cyprus to be peaceful one side has to disappear completely...It is sad that in this day and age people can keep so much bitterness and hatred in their hearts for their compatriots...This will destroy everything that is good and humane in us...As our bloody past has proven...To the barricates,prepare for the final solution,it will come sooner or later...

Then your ability to receive "clear messages" is in doubt. You believe one flawed outlook which you cling to despite logic and overwhelming evidence against. You do this because you support the presence of Turkey whilst a solution is sought (to blackmail us into accepting unfair "solutions") and even so, you have not let go of the notion of Turkish troops departing, in full, post-"solution".

You accuse people of lacking compassion and empathy for opposing such a wish and the means by which to seal it. These 'means' you've offered as the horrors of the huge atrocities GCs enacted upon TCs in the past. Clinging to this exaggerated modus of separation. The "mass" exodus of TCs which you blame the RoC for was shown to be a myth and the reasons for it as diverse as avoiding military service (e.g. yours and YFred's). You've decided TMT were not so bad. Yet you painted a picture of a TC teacher, a mere "moderate" TMT member, who still stashed bombs and ammunition in his children's bedrooms ... Why is that only "moderate" TMT?

The clear message I have received from this bounty of exchanges is how right the speaker at this meeting was, when he stated that the Cyprus Problem was one of pure invasion yet Turkish propaganda has managed to turn the victims, the GCs, into the criminals.

This youtube gives a simple summary of the real reasons we still have a CyProb and why we GCs, get so worked up when we hear so much Turkish propaganda taking precedent over the simple facts ...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sjnreEUfWrM

And so we have come FULL circle to the opening of this thread ...

[boomerang]

Depressing as it might be,there is one clear message from this tread...for some GCs,probably the majority,the TCs will always remain as Ottoman remnants,the reminders of the dark and oppressive times...Hence our v ery existance is a provocation for these people,we must be got rid of at all cost...The demand for Enosis with Greece keeps making more and more sense now...That was an attempt to bring an end the presence in Cyprus of the TCs...No matter how they wrap it,how they paint it,this ugly truth stares us in the face...Moderates like myself,Pyro,miltiades,Bananiot,Kikapu,Mikkie,DT,Deniz,Nikitas,Kifeas,and a few others I might've forgotten to mention are bound to be very disappointed in the end...The goal of the majority of GCs in Cyprus is still the total elimination of the TCs from Cyprus...They are simply after revenge for the Ottoman times,and no sensible or logical arguments will make the slightest difference...I am very sorry that things have come to this...But whichever way I look at it,I cannot come to any other conclusion...There is little point in discussing anything any more...The battle lines are drawn,and it is fight to the death I am afraid...for Cyprus to be peaceful one side has to disappear completely...It is sad that in this day and age people can keep so much bitterness and hatred in their hearts for their compatriots...This will destroy everything that is good and humane in us...As our bloody past has proven...To the barricates,prepare for the final solution,it will come sooner or later...

all those moderates you mentioned don't want foreign troops on cyprus or guarantees and an apatheid system, apart from your own desires...

revenge is in your mind playing havoc with you...how else you explain tcs spending more money and working daily in the free areas...how else you explain the gdp of the occupied areas tripled once the gates opened?...

simply i do not see any revenge taking place...the only revenge taking place is in the occupied areas and you need to ask DT to explain it to you...

the only revenge taking place is with the graffitti on the mountain where not so long ago was just a paint job, but today is light up like a christmas tree...

the only revenge taking place is the killing of your community by the liberators...

the only revenge around is the denial of peoples properties...while flogging them to scumbags...

the only revenge here is your continuation for a settlement while depriving peoples ancestral lands...

the only revenge i see here is your community, at turkeys orders of building an apatheid system...completely outlawed in todays modern societies...

i said to you before, you want a band aid solution where stiching is required...this will lead to amputation...

piratis is talking what was the norm in the past, right or wrong, but today i didn't hear him talking about enosis...on the contrary he talks about democracy, human rights and the rule of law...but your insistence in talking about the past and insecurities of the tcs, only, it's like seeing the tree and missing the forrest...you continually talk about the past but you are unable to see the future even though you live in a country with a dark history, putting it behind and embassing the above stated, a million times, rights...along with many other countries...

what i do see with your posts is, not adopting an apatheid system, enosis will be the norm...one has to wonder not only flawed but how it's stuck in a time warp your thinking is...

PS...living in OZ all these years has it taught you anything?...

[Pyrpolizer]

Depressing as it might be,there is one clear message from this tread...for some GCs,probably the majority,the TCs will always remain as Ottoman remnants,the reminders of the dark and oppressive times...Hence our v ery existance is a provocation for these people,we must be got rid of at all cost...The demand for Enosis with Greece keeps making more and more sense now...That was an attempt to bring an end the presence in Cyprus of the TCs...No matter how they wrap it,how they paint it,this ugly truth stares us in the face...Moderates like myself,Pyro,miltiades,Bananiot,Kikapu,Mikkie,DT,Deniz,Nikitas,Kifeas,and a few others I might've forgotten to mention are bound to be very disappointed in the end...The goal of the majority of GCs in Cyprus is still the total elimination of the TCs from Cyprus...They are simply after revenge for the Ottoman times,and no sensible or logical arguments will make the slightest difference...I am very sorry that things have come to this...But whichever way I look at it,I cannot come to any other conclusion...There is little point in discussing anything any more...The battle lines are drawn,and it is fight to the death I am afraid...for Cyprus to be peaceful one side has to disappear completely...It is sad that in this day and age people can keep so much bitterness and hatred in their hearts for their compatriots...This will destroy everything that is good and humane in us...As our bloody past has proven...To the barricates,prepare for the final solution,it will come sooner or later...

And yet again you are creating imaginary stories to excuse crimes against Greek Cypriots.

No mate, what we expect from you is to be equal Cypriots without any kind of racist privileges on our expense. You can be 100% equal individuals, and as a community you can have your minority rights just like it is in all other democratic countries in the world.

The era of the Ottomans is relevant only in that you unfortunately have not changed at all since then, and you still seek to divide the population in two groups so you can have gains and privileges on the expense of the majority.

Take the example of the Latins. During their rule of Cyprus you claim that they were worst than the Ottomans. And yet today they live together with us in peace as equal Cypriots. They are not trying to violate our rights anymore, they respect us and we respect them. They understand that as an ethnic group they are a minority, and they are not collaborating with foreign Imperialists trying to gain way more than their fair share on the expense of every other Cypriot.

There is really no point in discussing anything anymore if you think that your ethnic minority is some super special case among all other similar ethnic minorities in the whole world, that has the right to overwrite the human and democratic rights of every other Cypriot.

When you realize that what was given to you with the 1960 agreements and what you demand today in the negotiations are not things that an 18% minority deserves to have, but unfair and unjust gains on the expense of the majority of Cypriots extracted with your unethical collaboration with foreign Imperialists, then we can live together in this island in peace, in the say way we do it with all other minority ethnic groups in Cyprus.

But as long as you continue to collaborate with those foreign Imperialists, serving their interests in Cyprus and expecting the rewards they promise to you on our expense, then there is no chance in a billion that there will be peace between you and us on this island.

Hold on for a minute Piratis.

So far I thought we were talking for the 1960 and what it should THEN be fair for all.

How is your IDEAL going to apply today???
Do you support the negotiating line of our LEADERSHIP???

-If yes then how is that in line with your simple minority rights model?
-If no, please clarify.

[BirKibrisli]

you know something? i couldn't be bothered replying to any of you with hearts filled with hatred and desire for revenge...I can feel your hatred and your need to dominate and oppress the TCs a mile away...Back in the bad old days of empires,empires did what empires did best...conquered other lands and other people...Alexander the Great did it,theRomans did it,the Greeks did it,the French and the German and the British did it...But nowhere in history have the people subjected to these empires felt so much hatred for so long for the innocent people who were the biggest victims of the Empires,those forced to come along and do the dirty work of the empires,and who were abandoned and left behind to hold the can...There must be something truly wrong with those of you who can be so blinkered in your opinions,so stubborn to believe your own propaganda...You can be very proud of yourselves...And very proud of your parents who have passed it all onto you...And very proud of your Church who still today meddles with your minds and your hearts...There will never be a solution...Cypriots will never be one people one nation...
We deserve what we get,divided and ruled by the big boys forever...Enjoy your division,your partition,and your final act of stupidity which is inevitable...I will just watch it from a distance, a long distance,and shake my head at your senseless,pointless,dastardly acts of folly...