Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

Piratis is trying to tell you you did not simply get minority rights but rights far far beyond that.

Indeed we did get more rights than a a minority, and the reason is we were more than just a minority, as far as GC defined themselves as Greek and not cypriot, we were clearly a people seperate and different to those GC

Oh yes you were not a minority you were 18% of a separate people who thus needed 30% of the government jobs and 40% of the army. Give me a break man!

The British reduced the 82% majority to the status of "community" just to equalize it with another "community" of 18%!!

Well no one put more pressure on Makarios to accept the 60's agreements than Greece did. Greece along with Britain and Turkey saw the 60's agreements as a compromise between the two communites / peoples, based on a joint but sperate right for each to be able to determine its own future and not be ruled by a foriegn power against either communites will.

Here we go again. The divine wisdom coming from the British. And Greece who had no other option given the blackmail ultimata for partition. Man you need to come out of this fixations.

Either a, or b, or c, it was nothing but a HOSTILE AND UNFAIR ACT against the GCs.

You start with the the 'required result' - 'it (60s agreements) was a hostile and unfair act against the GC' and then you find alternatives that give you the desired result. You are simply unable to accept an alternative that does not give you the 'required result' - namely that it was an attempt to reconcile two groups both with vaild and seperate rights to allow both to have a real and effective chance of determine their own futures. If it was a 'stitch up of the GC' then Greece played as big a role in its creation as either Britain or Turkey.

See above

The enosis demand had nothing to do with it. People speaking different language and different relegion are different people by definition. Even if Enosis wasn't there whatever rights each group had pre-existed.

As far as the defintion of 'peoples' go in realtion to the right of peoples to self determination, it is entirely possible to have a 'people' that is made up of groups with different languages and religions, provided their is some other overriding 'commonality'. Thus striving for Independance in the name of a Cypriot people could be valid as it is 'cypriotness' that provides this larger commonality that overides the differences, making us a single Cypriot people. Enosis on the other hand could not and can not be claimed to the expression of such a unitary cypriot people for in its very essence it split us as cypriots between Greeks and those who where not greek, whilst denying the existance of a cypriot people and cypriot state. Enosis removed the potential and ability for us to find a 'greater commonality of cyprioptness' than our different languages and religions and in the process made us two seperate people each with seperate rights as a people to self determination.

It is your PERSONAL view that striving for independence would also mean striving for ONE Cypriot people. The people would still be 2, with distinguishable rights.

[erolz3]

The Latvians (Estonians, Ukrainians etc) had the right for self-determination for their own territory. They could use their self-determination right to unite with Germany if they wanted. (and they still can do this if they want).

People in Latvia had and have a right to self determination. Whether that right is expressed by one single group - the latvian people is determined by if they have a commonality that makes them one single group (people) - namely latvian or not. If latvians , made up of ethnic russian lativans and other latvians expressed a wish where some from each group supported union with Germany, then this would not make two seperate peoples there. If however all the lativans not of russain ethnicity said, we are not latvians we are germans - BECAUSE they are latvians of non russian ethnicity and all the latvians of russian ethnicity said 'we are not Germans in any way at all ever' BECAUSE they were latvians of russian ethnicity, they there would be two seperate peoples in that area. THe reason why is because the thing that could have been the greater commonality between them - ie being latvian, would have been destroyed
by those saying we are not latvian and there is no sucvh thing as latvia. What there would have been is two seperate people, one of which was part of the Germany people and another group that was not part of the german people.

This as analogy is what happened in Cyprus. Enosis destroyed the thing that could have been the greater commonality beyond out different religion and language that would have made us a single people with a single right to self determination - namely being Cypriot, by saying we are not Cypriot, we are part of the Greek people and you are something else.

Are you seriously making the claim that a country does not have the right to unite with another unless this is approved by every small ethnic minority within the country? Do you keep a straight face when you are saying such nonsense?

I am saying when a country emerges from colonialism, if there is a commonality of those that live there that binds them togeather as a people despite their differences then they are a single people. If however there is one group that defines themselves in terms that excludes the other group because they are part of a people elsewhere and denies the existance of that which could be the greater commonality between the two groups, then there are in reality two seperate peoples - and each with a seperate right to self determination.

It is a joke to say that you discovered that we are Greek in 1955.

Another staw man Piratis. If I had of said this it would be a joke, but I have not said this. What we discovered as colonalism receeded and the propspect of a different future for Cyprus and Cypriots became and ever more impending reality was that your vision for Cyprus was one that denied the existance of the thing that could have given us a commonality beyond our differences and made us one people and divided us into Greeks who live in Cyprus and 'others' who lived there.

They are Turkish and Muslim and they invaded a place which was inhabited for 1000s of years by Greek Christians. For centuries they kept the two groups separately in order to discriminate against us, and then he has the cheek to tell us that we made them separate in the 50s

In the final analysis Piratis you have two refrains in essence.

We are more than you numerically - thus we can and should be able to do anything we want in Cyprus, even when we define ourselves as a different people to TC and declare Cyprus does not exist as a nation or people and without having to pay ANY regard for the desires of TC as a group for whom Cyprus is also their homeland.

And

We were here first, are the 'indigenous people' and you are invading oppressors, - thus we can and should be able to do anything we want in Cyprus, even when we define ourselves as a different people to TC and declare Cyprus does not exist as a nation or people and without having to pay ANY regard for the desires of TC as a group for whom Cyprus is also their homeland.

I simply refused to accept that either because you were here first or there are more of you, that even when you define yourself as a people seperate from us we have NO RIGHTS as such a seperate people in our own homeland.

[erolz3]

.... please stick around Erol we need you.

I am afraid that is extermely unlikely.

Posting here is time consuming, tedious and unltimately depressing. I have no interest in 'tit for tat' point scoring. The only thing that motviates me to makes posts here or in places like it is a remote hope that by better mutual understanding of each other we can contribute in some small way to creating a better future for ourselves and those that come after us. However the sad reality for me is that every time I try with this objective it soon becomes clear that this is indeed nothing more than a fools hope and that if anything is achieved it is the opposite, not better understanding but even more polarisation.

You do not need me here. If I am here or if I am not here there is ultimately no difference - the tendenancy in places like this will ALWAYS move towards poloarisation and not greater understanding, with me or without me. At least that is my personal perspective. Sooner or later I will again inevitably receed away.

[Pyrpolizer]

.... please stick around Erol we need you.

I am afraid that is extermely unlikely.

Posting here is time consuming, tedious and unltimately depressing. I have no interest in 'tit for tat' point scoring. The only thing that motviates me to makes posts here or in places like it is a remote hope that by better mutual understanding of each other we can contribute in some small way to creating a better future for ourselves and those that come after us. However the sad reality for me is that every time I try with this objective it soon becomes clear that this is indeed nothing more than a fools hope and that if anything is achieved it is the opposite, not better understanding but even more polarisation.

You do not need me here. If I am here or if I am not here there is ultimately no difference - the tendenancy in places like this will ALWAYS move towards poloarisation and not greater understanding, with me or without me. At least that is my personal perspective. Sooner or later I will again inevitably receed away.

This is the ONLY way Cypriots understand. Through polarization. But they do understand eventually, don't worry.

If a Cypriot admits wrong he thinks he is a fagot.
So don't expect any admittances here.

[Piratis]

The Latvians (Estonians, Ukrainians etc) had the right for self-determination for their own territory. They could use their self-determination right to unite with Germany if they wanted. (and they still can do this if they want).

People in Latvia had and have a right to self determination. Whether that right is expressed by one single group - the latvian people is determined by if they have a commonality that makes them one single group (people) - namely latvian or not. If latvians , made up of ethnic russian lativans and other latvians expressed a wish where some from each group supported usinion with Germany, then this would make two seperate peoples there. If however all the lativans not of russain ethnicity said, we are not latvians we are germans - BECAUSE they are latvians of non russian ethnicity and all the latvians of russian ethnicity said 'we are not Germans in any way at all ever' BECAUSE they were latvians of russian ethnicity, they there would be two seperate peoples in that area. THe reason why is because the thing that could have been the greater commonality between them - ie being latvian, would have been destroyed
by those saying we are not latvian and there is no sucvh thing as latvia. What there would have been is two seperate people, one of which was part of the Germany people and another group that was not part of the german people.

This as analogy is what happened in Cyprus. Enosis destroyed the thing that could have been the greater commonality beyond out different religion and language that would have made us a single people with a single right to self determination - namely being Cypriot, by saying we are not Cypriot, we are part of the Greek people and you are something else.

Are you seriously making the claim that a country does not have the right to unite with another unless this is approved by every small ethnic minority within the country? Do you keep a straight face when you are saying such nonsense?

I am saying when a country emerges from colonialism, if there is a commonality of those that live there that binds them togeather as a people despite their differences then they are a single people. If however there is one group that defines themselves in terms that excludes the other group because they are part of a people elsewhere and denies the existance of that which could be the greater commonality between the two groups, then there are in reality two seperate peoples - and each with a seperate right to self determination.

It is a joke to say that you discovered that we are Greek in 1955.

Another staw man Piratis. If I had of said this it would be a joke, but I have not said this. What we discovered as colonalism receeded and the propspect of a different future for Cyprus and Cypriots became and ever more impending reality was that your vision for Cyprus was one that denied the existance of the thing that could have given us a commonality beyond our differences and made us one people and divided us into Greeks who live in Cyprus and 'others' who lived there.

They are Turkish and Muslim and they invaded a place which was inhabited for 1000s of years by Greek Christians. For centuries they kept the two groups separately in order to discriminate against us, and then he has the cheek to tell us that we made them separate in the 50s

In the final analysis Piratis you have two refrains in essence.

We are more than you numerically - thus we can and should be able to do anything we want in Cyprus, even when we define ourselves as a different people to TC and declare Cyprus does not exist as a nation or people and without having to pay ANY regard for the desires of TC as a group for whom Cyprus is also their homeland.

And

We were here first, are the 'indigenous people' and you are invading oppressors, - thus we can and should be able to do anything we want in Cyprus, even when we define ourselves as a different people to TC and declare Cyprus does not exist as a nation or people and without having to pay ANY regard for the desires of TC as a group for whom Cyprus is also their homeland.

I simply refused to accept that either because you were here first or there are more of you, that even when you define yourself as a people seperate from us we have NO RIGHTS as such a seperate people in our own homeland.

Erol, if the Latvians were German, then there is no doubt that after liberation they would be free to join Germany if they wanted, and the Russian minority would not be able to stop this. As it happened with GDR that united with the rest of Germany. Do you think that if a small minority of Russians was created in GDR that this minority would be able to prevent GDR from uniting with the rest of Germany? Stop saying jokes mate.

Yes we are the vast majority, and since we were already the majority since before you came to this island then there is no way you can blame us for you being a minority in Cyprus. You can only blame your own ancestors for this. Claims that we "made" you separate because we are Greeks are ridiculous. We were Greeks since before you came here!

Your rights as an ethnic minority are the exact same as the rights of every other ethnic minority in any other country. If you think that minorities should have more powers and rights, then start by giving the same rights you demand from us to our Greek minority in Turkey. Shouldn't they also have rights as a separate people in their own homeland? I am sure they do. So practice what you preach, and then come to preach us with your nonsense.

[Piratis]

.... please stick around Erol we need you.

I am afraid that is extermely unlikely.

Posting here is time consuming, tedious and unltimately depressing. I have no interest in 'tit for tat' point scoring. The only thing that motviates me to makes posts here or in places like it is a remote hope that by better mutual understanding of each other we can contribute in some small way to creating a better future for ourselves and those that come after us. However the sad reality for me is that every time I try with this objective it soon becomes clear that this is indeed nothing more than a fools hope and that if anything is achieved it is the opposite, not better understanding but even more polarisation.

You do not need me here. If I am here or if I am not here there is ultimately no difference - the tendenancy in places like this will ALWAYS move towards poloarisation and not greater understanding, with me or without me. At least that is my personal perspective. Sooner or later I will again inevitably receed away.

If you had no interest in tit-for-tat point scoring you wouldn't keep posting on this topic where we both repeated ourselves several times already.

As far as polarization goes, I believe it is better to allow all opinions to be heard because the alternative is worst than polarization and can range from one sided propaganda at worst, to boring at best.

[erolz3]

Claims that we "made" you separate because we are Greeks are ridiculous. We were Greeks since before you came here!

And once again I did not say you made us seperate by you being ethnicaly greek, greek orthodox and speaking greek.

You made us seperate in terms of 'peoples' when you CHOSE to place being Greek before and above being Cypriot - enosis. This CHOICE is what removed the thing that could have been the greater commanality between us than our differences - being cypriot as a nation and allowed us to be a single people DESPITE our differences.

You could just as easily have maintained your Greek ethnicity, culture and heritage langauge and religion without choosing to place it before and above being cypriot - independance.

[erolz3]

If you had no interest in tit-for-tat point scoring you wouldn't keep posting on this topic where we both repeated ourselves several times already.

And that would seem to be the ideal point for me to once again bow out.

[Viewpoint]

Dont fall into their trap Erol they want you to go because you challenge and threaten their mindset exposing it for what it really is Turk hating, revenge seeking madness.

[Get Real!]

Dont fall into their trap Erol they want you to go because you challenge and threaten their mindset exposing it for what it really is Turk hating, revenge seeking madness.

Gee, I wonder why that might have come about...