Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

And btw theose countries had the chance to evolve democratically not throught the "divine wisdom" of n ex -British ruler who made a mess. If we had the same chance in Cyprus i am sure we wouldn't have such problems today. Constitutions DO NEED TO EVOLVE THROUGH TIME

Yet you GCs tried to force change, what have you to say about that?

Did we have a naturally born constitution on the first place????

In a naturally born constitution i am absolutely certain the TCs would get multiregional autonomy. Much much better than todays situation.

[Piratis]

E.g. in Latvia the Russians are the 38% and still the Russian minority doesn't get anywhere near the powers and privileges you demand in Cyprus.

Because Lativa formed a nation state in the name of a Latvian people that included those lativans of russian ethnicity. It did not try an annex lativa to an existing state that expliclty exlcuded those living in latvia of russian ethnicity.

If those living in Latvia who were not of russina ethnicity had said, there is no such thing as a latvian people or a latvian state, there are just 'indignous' people of lativa who are german (to pick a nation at random) and some others who are remnants of a foreign colonial power and that in the name of a single unitary lativain people we say does not exist we are going to make all those now living in latvia part of germany and the german nation then I think you would find that the idea that those living in lativa who were most cerrtainly NOT german may well have had a valid claim to be of a sperate people, with a seperate right to self determination from the german latvians.

This is what you seem unable or more realisticly unwilling to accept.

It was Enosis that made us a seperate people. This is why I say that TC have a sperate right to self determination AS FAR AS THEY DEFINE THEMSELVES AND ACT AS GREEK AND NOT CYPRIOT. That is what makes Cyprus different.

What you say could be the case only if the different ethnic groups inhabit different territories, not when they are mixed together like we were, or maybe when non of the ethnic groups is the clear majority, as we are in Cyprus. And this has nothing to do with the time the country was formed.

Once more the existance of our rights as a sperate people to GC choosing and acting as part of ther Greek people is not dependant on if we are 'spread out' or not. This may affect what MEANS can be used to express the right but not that the right exists.

The existance of our right to sperate self determination IS dependant on if you choose to define and act as a people 'other' than us or as a people that INCLUDES us.

It really is all very simple at that level.

It is clear that you don't want to understand the obvious, and we both know why.

The Latvians (Estonians, Ukrainians etc) had the right for self-determination for their own territory. They could use their self-determination right to unite with Germany if they wanted. (and they still can do this if they want).

In fact Latvia (and many others) united with EU, and be sure that if the EU is transformed into the "United States of Europe" the Russian minority of Latvia will not be able to object to this... and they are the 38%, not a minuscule 18%.

Are you seriously making the claim that a country does not have the right to unite with another unless this is approved by every small ethnic minority within the country? Do you keep a straight face when you are saying such nonsense?

The fact that we are Greek was something that Turks knew from before you choose to came here to oppress and exploit us. It is a joke to say that you discovered that we are Greek in 1955. So if you are a minority among Greeks that is not our fault. Blame it on your ancestors for bringing you to Cyprus.

[Viewpoint]

And btw theose countries had the chance to evolve democratically not throught the "divine wisdom" of n ex -British ruler who made a mess. If we had the same chance in Cyprus i am sure we wouldn't have such problems today. Constitutions DO NEED TO EVOLVE THROUGH TIME

Yet you GCs tried to force change, what have you to say about that?

Did we have a naturally born constitution on the first place????

In a naturally born constitution i am absolutely certain the TCs would get multiregional autonomy. Much much better than todays situation.

Natural or forced the bottom line is we are where are and without a solution that will incoperate both sides concerns we will remain as we are divided, imo the chasm is just to wide to bridge and developments over the past 2 years has yet again proven me 100% right.

[Piratis]

E.g. in Latvia the Russians are the 38% and still the Russian minority doesn't get anywhere near the powers and privileges you demand in Cyprus.

Because Lativa formed a nation state in the name of a Latvian people that included those lativans of russian ethnicity. It did not try an annex lativa to an existing state that expliclty exlcuded those living in latvia of russian ethnicity.

If those living in Latvia who were not of russina ethnicity had said, there is no such thing as a latvian people or a latvian state, there are just 'indignous' people of lativa who are german (to pick a nation at random) and some others who are remnants of a foreign colonial power and that in the name of a single unitary lativain people we say does not exist we are going to make all those now living in latvia part of germany and the german nation then I think you would find that the idea that those living in lativa who were most cerrtainly NOT german may well have had a valid claim to be of a sperate people, with a seperate right to self determination from the german latvians.

This is what you seem unable or more realisticly unwilling to accept.

It was Enosis that made us a seperate people. This is why I say that TC have a sperate right to self determination AS FAR AS GC DEFINE THEMSELVES AND ACT AS GREEK AND NOT CYPRIOT. That is what makes Cyprus different.

What you say could be the case only if the different ethnic groups inhabit different territories, not when they are mixed together like we were, or maybe when non of the ethnic groups is the clear majority, as we are in Cyprus. And this has nothing to do with the time the country was formed.

Once more the existance of our rights as a sperate people to GC choosing and acting as part of ther Greek people is not dependant on if we are 'spread out' or not. This may affect what MEANS can be used to express the right but not that the right exists.

The existance of our right to sperate self determination IS dependant on if you choose to define and act as a people 'other' than us or as a people that INCLUDES us.

It really is all very simple at that level.

The enosis demand had nothing to do with it. People speaking different language and different relegion are different people by definition. Even if Enosis wasn't there whatever rights each group had pre-existed.

The funny thing is that Erol doesn't even realize the extent of the nonsense he is talking about. They are Turkish and Muslim and they invaded a place which was inhabited for 1000s of years by Greek Christians. For centuries they kept the two groups separately in order to discriminate against us, and then he has the cheek to tell us that we made them separate in the 50s

[Viewpoint]

Erol is more than a match for you Piratis, he makes you look really stupid, please stick around Erol we need you.

[growuptcs]

Erol is more than a match for you Piratis, he makes you look really stupid, please stick around Erol we need you.

In your stupid world, Erol might be a match for Pirates. A stupid is, is what a stupid does. Stupid.

[Viewpoint]

Erol is more than a match for you Piratis, he makes you look really stupid, please stick around Erol we need you.

In your stupid world, Erol might be a match for Pirates. A stupid is, is what a stupid does. Stupid.

Stupid is you.

[Pyrpolizer]

I think people who can debate and use their brains ARE NOT STUPID and this includes both of them.

[erolz3]

Piratis is trying to tell you you did not simply get minority rights but rights far far beyond that.

Indeed we did get more rights than a a minority, and the reason is we were more than just a minority, as far as GC defined themselves as Greek and not cypriot, we were clearly a people seperate and different to those GC

The British reduced the 82% majority to the status of "community" just to equalize it with another "community" of 18%!!

Well no one put more pressure on Makarios to accept the 60's agreements than Greece did. Greece along with Britain and Turkey saw the 60's agreements as a compromise between the two communites / peoples, based on a joint but sperate right for each to be able to determine its own future and not be ruled by a foriegn power against either communites will.

Either a, or b, or c, it was nothing but a HOSTILE AND UNFAIR ACT against the GCs.

You start with the the 'required result' - 'it (60s agreements) was a hostile and unfair act against the GC' and then you find alternatives that give you the desired result. You are simply unable to accept an alternative that does not give you the 'required result' - namely that it was an attempt to reconcile two groups both with vaild and seperate rights to allow both to have a real and effective chance of determine their own futures. If it was a 'stitch up of the GC' then Greece played as big a role in its creation as either Britain or Turkey.

The enosis demand had nothing to do with it. People speaking different language and different relegion are different people by definition. Even if Enosis wasn't there whatever rights each group had pre-existed.

As far as the defintion of 'peoples' go in realtion to the right of peoples to self determination, it is entirely possible to have a 'people' that is made up of groups with different languages and religions, provided their is some other overriding 'commonality'. Thus striving for Independance in the name of a Cypriot people could be valid as it is 'cypriotness' that provides this larger commonality that overides the differences, making us a single Cypriot people. Enosis on the other hand could not and can not be claimed to the expression of such a unitary cypriot people for in its very essence it split us as cypriots between Greeks and those who where not greek, whilst denying the existance of a cypriot people and cypriot state. Enosis removed the potential and ability for us to find a 'greater commonality of cyprioptness' than our different languages and religions and in the process made us two seperate people each with seperate rights as a people to self determination.

[Piratis]

Piratis is trying to tell you you did not simply get minority rights but rights far far beyond that.

Indeed we did get more rights than a a minority, and the reason is we were more than just a minority, as far as GC defined themselves as Greek and not cypriot, we were clearly a people seperate and different to those GC

If there was just some "Cypriot" ethnicity, and every resident of Cyprus belonged to that Cypriot ethnicity, then there wouldn't be any majority or minority ethnic groups. The whole population would belong to that one ethnic group, and Cyprus would be one of the very few countries with a single ethnic group.

The fact that on this island the majority of the population is ethnic Greek, and you are not, is exactly what makes you an ethnic minority.

ethnic minority: a group that has different national or cultural traditions from the majority of the population

ethnic minority: a group of people who have a different ethnicity, religion, language or culture to that of the majority of people in the place where they live.

And by the way, we are Cypriot, Greek, European and members of the humankind. So don't tell me nonsense that we defined ourselves as non-Cypriot, as such thing never happened. "Cypriot" has never been an ethnicity, and as I said you knew very well that this island was inhabited by a majority of Greek Christians right from the beginning when you came to our island. During your 300+ centuries of rule you were very happy to keep yourselves separate from us and discriminate against us, so don't tell us that we made you separate in the 50s.