Cyprus-Forum.com

[YFred]

Of course it is possible, but not when there is no proper negotiations. What a waste of 5 years where solution was possible. It's a real shame.

[Viewpoint]

Top class discussion here between Kikapu and Birkibrisli.
Excellent points from two different angles of view.

The only thing I would like to add is that every Cypriot is a different personality. Some people see the wrong doings of the other side only, understand their own suffering only, don’t care and don’t want to hear or understand anything that concerns the other side. Some people are just Turk or Greek haters. Their own side are Angels the other side are all Evil.
Some other people can extend their understanding and empathy to the other side. And some others chose to side with what their own side calls the "enemy". Expecting the majority of the people to develop empathy for the other community as a necessary pre-requisite for a solution like my friend Bir said, is a noble expectation but is against human nature.
My friend kikapu said this can only happen after a fair solution, but I don’t think that will happen either,even if the solution is fair for all. The percentages may increase, but the majority will still not have any empathy for the past sufferings for the other community.Simply because they never had first hand experience.
What I think will happen is that the majority from both sides will put the past behind, and start building bridges, empathy and understanding from there on.

That much for human nature. Expecting too much from the people will just make you crazy.
On the other hand here we have the concept of what the majority of the people think or want at a given time.
Imo anyone who will try to discover a way to make the majority think in a certain way will just end up crazy again. These things are completely uncontrollable. They change with the wind. Once upon a time 96% of the GCs wanted Enosis. Slowly slowly that changed. And it did not change because of the Turkish invasion it changed long before that when the Gcs discovered they can do much better economically than Greece. Money is honey you know…
Bir said VP represents the majority of TCs because the majority of them today want partition. Well so be it, however the majority of TCs in 2003-4 wanted unification no matter what.Imo if Christofias and Talat come to an agreement before April that will get at least 80% of the TC and GC vote. So where does that put VP? (to be honest I think VP will then be in that 80% forgetting about her partitionist friends)
Coming to the essense of my friends’ discussion which as I understood has to do with the red lines of each community: Imo each side has to take reasonable risks if a solution would ever be reached. Surely a confederation is not going to be accepted by GCs. Imo the TCs must take the reasonable risk of a strong Federation as exists in other countries. The risk here is that maybe the GCs will return en masse and spoil the very concept of bizonality and slowly slowly absorb the TCs. It’s an risk I know, but a reasonable one because the chance of this ever happening is very low.Very few GCs will ever chose to go back living lonely among TCs. Perhaps the risk taken by the TCs could be countered with another risk by the GCs by accepting quotas. The reasonable element in this risk for the GCs is that most propably the quota will never be reached.

Same goes for Turkey’s guarantees. It seems these are absolutely necessary for the TCs feeling of safety. If me as a GC would know those guarantees are not going to be used unilaterally to start a new war, and their mandate was within Nato, or together with some EU force, I could take the risk of accepting them for a limited period.(Certainly not for ever and certainly not until Turkey joins the EU). Countering the risk taken by the GCs, the TCs should also take the risk of the Turkish Guarantees not be purely Turkish but with some other accepted military power.

I am really incapable of understanding the fears of the TCs joining the GCs in a United Federal Cyprus in a strong federation. If the situation was the reverse and the TCs were in the EU already, with higher standard of living, and much better economy, me as a GC would risk my joining them without second thought, given the fact they already accepted my ruling the internal affairs of my Fed state, and the political equality of the Fed parts. I believe this risk has already been accepted by the TCs, and that those who now prefer partition are just skeptics, waiting to see if the final agreement is worthy enough.

Definately food for thought but what I would like to know is why you feel I and other TCs would be in the 80% if we thought the new deal was not what we wanted?

Secondly have you ever asked yourself why the average TC prefers partition? its because we know it isimpossible to agree a solution for the chasm between the demands of both sides are to wide to bridge, so all that remains is either capitulation or the status quo coupled with the wait for agreed partition as physically it already exsists.

[paliometoxo]

Yes, the question is Have YOU asked yourself WHY?

is it what you say impossible to meet the demands of BOTH sides. difficult i agree yes but some tcs and gcs do want the same thing so in theory it should not be that hard.

or is it because most of the population in the north is turkish mainlanders who would probably lose their stolen property and would rather stay so they do not lose everything? so these polls and proof from the north that most of the tcs want partition when in fact your mostly turkish mainlanders makes the polls and your so called proof a moo point rubbish and not valid.

It does physically exist but it was forced on the Cypriots it was not agreed to separate Cyprus in two. since when does the minority suddenly become a majority and be able to tell everyone what to do with the island especially when turkey is very happy to spit on their minority and give them nothing then demand their minority has say over the whole island of Cyprus?

you people can wait until hell freeezes over you wont get agreed partition.

[Pyrpolizer]

Fair points raised here Pyro; and btw, welcome back to the forum. Nice to see you again.

Hello Deniz and to all other old friends.
It seems I have to say hello each time I drop in because I will not be participating a lot.

Except of course if we have a solution in April, in which case I may be here 24/7

[Pyrpolizer]

Pyro, you have made a very balanced post. It was great reading it. While you were away, I did make another settlement plan which covered all of your points and more in the initial posting and the following 28 pages. Give it a read when you get a chance. There is an updated version with the "5 Year plan" added to the original post later (there's one on page 26) as well as a quota system where the population of the GCs in the north will only grow at the same rate as the TCs, which will ensure that the TCs will retain the majority.

Kikapu's "BBF" Power Sharing Plan.!

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=21685

Thanks dear Kikapu,

I will read it for sure in the next few days.

[Pyrpolizer]

Definately food for thought but what I would like to know is why you feel I and other TCs would be in the 80% if we thought the new deal was not what we wanted?

Secondly have you ever asked yourself why the average TC prefers partition? its because we know it isimpossible to agree a solution for the chasm between the demands of both sides are to wide to bridge, so all that remains is either capitulation or the status quo coupled with the wait for agreed partition as physically it already exsists.

For the first part the reasoning is that the leaders will never accept something they know their people won't.

About as to why the majority of TCs at this point in time would prefer partition (notice all polls talk for preference not absolute want) there are many reasons including the ones you said. Additional ones are:a) The standard of living increased 2 times in the last 5 years, so economically much less to earn from a solution. b)Too much easy selling of stolen GC properties and easy profit c)They already get most of the EU benefits on personl level...
just to name a few.
In general everybody looks at his own pocket.

NB. I am rather confused from what you said. So do they want agreed partition or the status quo?

[Murataga]

Yes, the question is Have YOU asked yourself WHY?

is it what you say impossible to meet the demands of BOTH sides. difficult i agree yes but some tcs and gcs do want the same thing so in theory it should not be that hard.

or is it because most of the population in the north is turkish mainlanders who would probably lose their stolen property and would rather stay so they do not lose everything? so these polls and proof from the north that most of the tcs want partition when in fact your mostly turkish mainlanders makes the polls and your so called proof a moo point rubbish and not valid.

It does physically exist but it was forced on the Cypriots it was not agreed to separate Cyprus in two. since when does the minority suddenly become a majority and be able to tell everyone what to do with the island especially when turkey is very happy to spit on their minority and give them nothing then demand their minority has say over the whole island of Cyprus?

you people can wait until hell freeezes over you wont get agreed partition.

Not entirely true. We the TCs retrieved to safer areas during your attacks throughout the 60s and we did this pretty much out of desperation and on our own. That is the beginning of our physical separation and it was inflicted by you, the GC side. 1974 was us getting out of what you shoved us into and gaining a more manageable territory for ourselves. Other unconstitutional and illegal impositions such as the prevention of our MPs to attend the parliament, the nullification of the vice-president`s post and the establishment and harboring of the `national guard` were all the byproduct of the GC side`s ambitions (all documented by the U.N.).

[Viewpoint]

paliometoxo I recall we were not debating anything when you were last contributing to CF but seeing you have been away for a while I am prepared to give ti another go if you respect the bounderies of no verbal abuse or personal insults as you displayed in the past, I promise to do the same.

Yes, the question is Have YOU asked yourself WHY?

Of course.

is it what you say impossible to meet the demands of BOTH sides. difficult i agree yes but some tcs and gcs do want the same thing so in theory it should not be that hard.

The current situation prove this theory wrong, the chasm is just to wide, the TCs and GCs want different things thats why there is minimal convergence.

or is it because most of the population in the north is turkish mainlanders who would probably lose their stolen property and would rather stay so they do not lose everything? so these polls and proof from the north that most of the tcs want partition when in fact your mostly turkish mainlanders makes the polls and your so called proof a moo point rubbish and not valid.

This has nothing to do with I know people who are classed as settlers and TCs, I mix with them all the time due to my ine of work and I can assure you that TCs have lost faith is a solution and do not feel GCs are sincere in wanting a solution where they will respect the TC as an equal community under a BBF with political equality. If you removed the recent settlers and had a purely TC vote on becoming a minority in a GC state they would reject it by an overwhelming majority.

It does physically exist but it was forced on the Cypriots it was not agreed to separate Cyprus in two. since when does the minority suddenly become a majority and be able to tell everyone what to do with the island especially when turkey is very happy to spit on their minority and give them nothing then demand their minority has say over the whole island of Cyprus?

When the majority try to fuck over the minority and they fight back for survival, isnt that what the Kurds are doing right now? You forget you cannot push us to one side you have to take notice of what we want as well, the physical division will remain until something better comes along and from what we have experienced over the past years the talks are going down hill yet again so it reconfirms this problem is unsovable and that the status quo will continue which means we will fight for certain moves to remove some of the isolation on the TRNC. What do you expect us to do? we will never capitulate to becoming a minority in a GC state or be exposed to a diminishing BBF allowing GCs to take total control of both thte north and south states.

[Get Real!]

That is the beginning of our physical separation and it was inflicted by you, the GC side.

Not according to the UN Secretary-General of the time…

"The Turkish Cypriot leaders have adhered to a rigid stand against any measures which might involve having members of the two communities live and work together, or which might place Turkish Cypriots in situations where they would have to acknowledge the authority of Government agents. Indeed, since the Turkish Cypriot leadership is committed to physical and geographical separation of the communities as a political goal, it is not likely to encourage activities by Turkish Cypriots which may be interpreted as demonstrating the merits of an alternative policy. The result has been a seemingly deliberate policy of self-segregation by the Turkish Cypriots"

UN document S/6426

[paliometoxo]

nice spider man 3 avar btw.. you vanished for ages.. wb.

and who put the bombs ont he turkish cypriot doorstep so the tcs think the gcs did it? and who looted the gcs houses and shops and started the rioting? who forced tcs out of their homes in the mixed villages and put blame on the gcs?

the turks where i admit very cleaver they pulled it off nicely. the only problem is the world could see this which is why no one recognised the trnc after the invasion. if it was gcs and this was the case un would of approved the invasion in seconds.

But it did not help when a few gcs wanted enosis gcs just like it wont help the turks screaming partition because its not officially going to happen. Cyprus will re unite