Cyprus-Forum.com

[Tim Drayton]

I think that the notion of the right of self-determination for all peoples was one of the greatest achievements of the 20th Centruy, and is a prerequisite for world peace and stability.

However, it has to be admitted that this notion is flawed by a fatal contradiction. The concept of a 'people' is ethnic, but the concept of political independence of necessity has a territorial dimension. The peoples of the world, unfortunately, do not all reside in neat, compartmentalised geographic units, but often share the same geographical space with people having other ethnic identities. How do you reconcile the resulting contradiction when two or more peoples share the same space and support conflicting political claims over that territory? A prime example would be Northern Ireland, at least as it was about 20 years ago, where Catholics perceived themselves to be part of Ireland and considered the British to be an occupying force, while Protestants considered themselves to be British. Yet the Protestant and Catholic population was spread over the whole territory. How do you grant both peoples the right of delf-determination.

The right of a peoples to self determination does not equate to a right to an indpendant sovreign state exclusively theirs only - that is where you are getting into problems.

In the SIMPLEST of cases ONE way of expressing the right to self determination of peoples is via an unitary independant state.

In more complex situations like Cyprus where you have two peoples then compromise is required. That is the basis on which the 60's agreements were made.

TC were not granted unfair powers in those agreements as a reward by the world powers in order to stitch up GC in Cyprus. They were granted them as a reflection of both communites rights to self determination within a single nation state.

The problem remains that GC like Piratis refuse to accept that TC have such a right at all, NOT rights to their own state, but a right to have an effective voice as a community / people in their OWN shared state.

So he can justify first agreeing such a system for tatical advantage, then working in secret to illegaly remove the rights granted as a reflection of the TC communal rights to self determination using illegla ethnic violence as '100% legal' and 'restoration of justice'.

Accept that as far as GC define themselves as a people that excludes TC then TC have a sepertate and equal right to self determination and we can solve the Cyprus problem. Continue to deny we have such rights at all and we remain no closer to a solution than we were in 1955.

Perhaps, but I think you are being a bit disingenous to deny that the notion of self-determination is generally perceived to have a territorial dimension. In the accepted doctrine:

http://www.diakonia.se/sa/node.asp?node=3142

A people can be said to have realised its right to self-determination when they have either (1) established a sovereign and independent state; (2) freely associated with another state or (3) integrated with another state after freely having expressed their will to do so. The definition of realisation of self-determination was confirmed in the Declaration of Friendly Relations.

and I think all 3 options mentioned above are territorial in nature.

[erolz3]

I need to ask you whether the TCs/Turkey are willing to return back to the 1959 Zurich agreements as is, or it that now a thing of the past?

Well I can not really speak for TC/Turkey but only for myself.

Also I think you need to ask yourself the natural corrolary to this question. Namely is the RoC and indeed GC like Piratis willing to return to the Zurich agreements ? Where they wiling to do so in 59 when they signed them, willing in 63 or 65 or 74 pre or post Turkish action? Or now?

For me personally I would be willing to such a return in simplistic terms but only if I beleived that those GC also 'agreeing' were doing so on the basis that they accepted that TC do have a right to self determination and to not be governed by 'others' as far as GC define themselves and act as 'others' (ie Greek) and not Cypriot.

If however I only beleive that GC are signing such an agreement on the basis that their signature means nothing and because they deem aspect of the agreement 'unfair' they are justified in using non leagl means to remove the TC communities rights under those agreements, up to and including ethnic state sponsered and run violence, then no I am not sure such a return would be acceptable to me.

Personaly for me bi zonality is not an issue but bi communality IS a vitaly important issues.

However in general terms this is not true for TC / Turkey. In light of what has happened bizonality is now an agreed basis for a future settlement and has been from the lat 70's I believe.

As far as specifics of alledged demands from either side in current negotiations goes I do not look at these or comment on them. These are negotiations and I leave that job to the negotiatiors. I do not see my role as a citizen being to double guess , brow beat and jump up and down in response to every alledge claim as to what is 'on the table or not'. I see my role as being to decide if I support a proposed agreement or not once it has been thrashed out by the negotiators.

[erolz3]

Perhaps, but I think you are being a bit disingenous to deny that the notion of self-determination is generally perceived to have a territorial dimension. In the accepted doctrine:

I do not deny that the right has a territorial dimension. I just do not accept that this is the ONLY dimension. It is one of many factors.

What I do not accept is that if by chance TC had been located in a single location in CYprus they would have had a right to self determination, but if spread out they do not.

I accept that if they had have had a single geoprahical location then seperate state hood of this region on its own may have been a feasiable means of expressing their right to self determination and that without this MEANS is not possible, but not that if this alone defines if they have the right at all.

They have the right. Partition was not an acceptable means of expressing this right because of how it would infring on the rights of GC in cyprus so another means was sought. Namely the zurich agreements.

For me the basic problem still remains however. If GC can not or will not accept that we have such a right then I can not see how we can hope to find a soloution.

[Paphitis]

I need to ask you whether the TCs/Turkey are willing to return back to the 1959 Zurich agreements as is, or it that now a thing of the past?

Well I can not really speak for TC/Turkey but only for myself.

Also I think you need to ask yourself the natural corrolary to this question. Namely is the RoC and indeed GC like Piratis willing to return to the Zurich agreements ? Where they wiling to do so in 59 when they signed them, willing in 63 or 65 or 74 pre or post Turkish action? Or now?

For me personally I would be willing to such a return in simplistic terms but only if I beleived that those GC also 'agreeing' were doing so on the basis that they accepted that TC do have a right to self determination and to not be governed by 'others' as far as GC define themselves and act as 'others' (ie Greek) and not Cypriot.

If however I only beleive that GC are signing such an agreement on the basis that their signature means nothing and because they deem aspect of the agreement 'unfair' they are justified in using non leagl means to remove the TC communities rights under those agreements, up to and including ethnic state sponsered and run violence, then no I am not sure such a return would be acceptable to me.

Personaly for me bi zonality is not an issue but bi communality IS a vitaly important issues.

However in general terms this is not true for TC / Turkey. In light of what has happened bizonality is now an agreed basis for a future settlement and has been from the lat 70's I believe.

As far as specifics of alledged demands from either side in current negotiations goes I do not look at these or comment on them. These are negotiations and I leave that job to the negotiatiors. I do not see my role as a citizen being to double guess , brow beat and jump up and down in response to every alledge claim as to what is 'on the table or not'. I see my role as being to decide if I support a proposed agreement or not once it has been thrashed out by the negotiators.

Well likewise, I am willing to return back to the 1959 Agreements, but there needs to be some mutually agreed revisions, over time, regarding The Treaty of Guarantee and Alliance, as well as the veto right of the Vice President, otherwise we will just end up with an ineffective Government again!

I can't speak for any other GCs on that matter.

At some point, both TCs and GCs will need to act as one, otherwise we are pissing into wind. The ideal scenario of course would be to have equality across the board as Cypriots! Then we can do away with any racially divisive rights and just run the country with 'bicommunal'(wrong term to use if we all become Cypriot) political parties.

However, I do appreciate how you answered my question as your own opinion and do understand that you can't speak for anyone else, but I fear that the 1959 Zurich Agreement is not on most TC's agenda, and is not on Turkey's agenda because the real objective for Turkey is to squeeze as many ill gotten gains out of the GCs as possible, many of which I listed in my previous post. These maximalist demands are unacceptable, which means we are left with an indefinite status quo! Unless of course Turkey wishes to get serious and offer a serious formalized partition plan for Cyprus, which some GCs may accept, such as a formalized 82:18 split for example!

[Pyrpolizer]

I don't want to sweep the past under the carpet!!! I never allow that to happen! I demand an apology for all the crimes you have done against us from 1571 until now! Do you think we will erase 100s of years of crimes and oppression against us just like that? The first thing you should admit is that you shouldn't exist on this island in the first place. The creation of your minority on our island was a result of invasion, murders of many 1000s Cypriots, and oppression of the Cypriot population. If it wasn't for your aggression and expansionism Cyprus would be a peaceful democratic island with no problems at all. So don't sweep the past under the carpet! APOLOGIZE and ask for our forgiveness!!! Maybe we will forgive you but maybe not. We just had way too much suffering to forget so easily. Maybe you will need to be send back to Turkey for some years to give to us the chance to forgive you. Then maybe we will allow some of you to come back. So admit your crimes of 1571 -1878 and then we will move in the 50s! Nothing of the past will stay under the carpet!!

Thank you for being so honest and open,Sotos...
Believe it or not I understand your sentiments...I often look at our Aboriginee population here,and think about how much they suffered in the hands of their colonisers,and shake my head in wonderment- how can these people be so forgiving and non agressive...Let me say this,I sincerely wish the Ottomans had never attacked or captured Cyprus...I only have an incling of what it must've been like for the indigenious population at the time...I would be quite happy to say SORRY on their behalf,if that will make a difference..But Sotos,1571 was a long time ago...429 years if my math serves me right...Not even my great great great great grandfather was alive at the time...Nobody asked me or any of my ancestors for permission to capture Cyprus...Non of our ancestors came here voluntarily...They came either as soldiers or as forced settlers...And over the following hundreds of years they became part of this land,part of the Cypriot people...Cyprus is as much our home as it is yours now...We have nowhere else to go,nowhere else to call home...

It is my realisation that a lot of GCs feel like you do,though not all articulate it as openly as you have here,which made me reconsider my original position on the best solution for Cyprus...I would personally be very afraid to live together with people who are capable of holding on to centuries old bitterness and hatreds...And I cannot possibly advise the TC community to put themselves at the same risk as before,just to satisfy my romanticised belief and trust in humanity...What I think is neither here nor there,and the collective TC intuition/subconsciousness has already decided that we must live not togther but side by side, with enough safety precautions,so as not to invite still more pain and suffering for the future Cypriots,GC and TC alike...I am out of the picture now Sotos,and will probably never return to Cyprus...But you will have a very difficult time trying to convince those who live in the trnc to depart from their homeland...And you will not have too many of them apologising for something which happened more than 400 years ago...The fate of Cyprus is sealed,even a BBF will not keep your dark-hearted,ancient- hatred- filled selves safely apart from innocent TCs...

Soto's post was of the type "win the debate using everything you can". I am surprised you took it so seriously that you even replied dear Bir.

Honenstly I don't think there are many GCs who hold bad feelings against the TCs because of the 1571-1878 period simply because most of it comes from history books. On the contrary we have live evidence from the 1878-1950 period (albeit from our grandparents) that GCs and TCs were living in HARMONY, COOPERATION AND ...POVERTY all together.
After 1950 the British tried (USING SOME PEOPLE) to turn one community against the other, but did they really disturb the general feeling of brotherhood among the GCs and TCs? Imo nothing of that really had any effect.

Even today, after all those troubles of the 60s of the 1974 and so on and so on, there are many TCs and GCs who in real life feel for each other. Why, is it because of the Ottoman times, or is it because they actually lived together like brothers? Isn't it Miltiades in this forum who was in the orphanage and they had a TC orphan boy called "the ace" who was their leader? Thousands of examples in real life... How did most TCs know to speak Greek? Talking with enemies or talking with friends?

This forum is good for strong debates but no matter how strong the arguments there are always equally strong counter-arguments. Don't fall in the trap of been carried away by one sided arguments.

[BirKibrisli]

I don't want to sweep the past under the carpet!!! I never allow that to happen! I demand an apology for all the crimes you have done against us from 1571 until now! Do you think we will erase 100s of years of crimes and oppression against us just like that? The first thing you should admit is that you shouldn't exist on this island in the first place. The creation of your minority on our island was a result of invasion, murders of many 1000s Cypriots, and oppression of the Cypriot population. If it wasn't for your aggression and expansionism Cyprus would be a peaceful democratic island with no problems at all. So don't sweep the past under the carpet! APOLOGIZE and ask for our forgiveness!!! Maybe we will forgive you but maybe not. We just had way too much suffering to forget so easily. Maybe you will need to be send back to Turkey for some years to give to us the chance to forgive you. Then maybe we will allow some of you to come back. So admit your crimes of 1571 -1878 and then we will move in the 50s! Nothing of the past will stay under the carpet!!

Thank you for being so honest and open,Sotos...
Believe it or not I understand your sentiments...I often look at our Aboriginee population here,and think about how much they suffered in the hands of their colonisers,and shake my head in wonderment- how can these people be so forgiving and non agressive...Let me say this,I sincerely wish the Ottomans had never attacked or captured Cyprus...I only have an incling of what it must've been like for the indigenious population at the time...I would be quite happy to say SORRY on their behalf,if that will make a difference..But Sotos,1571 was a long time ago...429 years if my math serves me right...Not even my great great great great grandfather was alive at the time...Nobody asked me or any of my ancestors for permission to capture Cyprus...Non of our ancestors came here voluntarily...They came either as soldiers or as forced settlers...And over the following hundreds of years they became part of this land,part of the Cypriot people...Cyprus is as much our home as it is yours now...We have nowhere else to go,nowhere else to call home...

It is my realisation that a lot of GCs feel like you do,though not all articulate it as openly as you have here,which made me reconsider my original position on the best solution for Cyprus...I would personally be very afraid to live together with people who are capable of holding on to centuries old bitterness and hatreds...And I cannot possibly advise the TC community to put themselves at the same risk as before,just to satisfy my romanticised belief and trust in humanity...What I think is neither here nor there,and the collective TC intuition/subconsciousness has already decided that we must live not togther but side by side, with enough safety precautions,so as not to invite still more pain and suffering for the future Cypriots,GC and TC alike...I am out of the picture now Sotos,and will probably never return to Cyprus...But you will have a very difficult time trying to convince those who live in the trnc to depart from their homeland...And you will not have too many of them apologising for something which happened more than 400 years ago...The fate of Cyprus is sealed,even a BBF will not keep your dark-hearted,ancient- hatred- filled selves safely apart from innocent TCs...

Soto's post was of the type "win the debate using everything you can". I am surprised you took it so seriously that you even replied dear Bir.

Honenstly I don't think there are many GCs who hold bad feelings against the TCs because of the 1571-1878 period simply because most of it comes from history books. On the contrary we have live evidence from the 1878-1950 period (albeit from our grandparents) that GCs and TCs were living in HARMONY, COOPERATION AND ...POVERTY all together.
After 1950 the British tried (USING SOME PEOPLE) to turn one community against the other, but did they really disturb the general feeling of brotherhood among the GCs and TCs? Imo nothing of that really had any effect.

Even today, after all those troubles of the 60s of the 1974 and so on and so on, there are many TCs and GCs who in real life feel for each other. Why, is it because of the Ottoman times, or is it because they actually lived together like brothers? Isn't it Miltiades in this forum who was in the orphanage and they had a TC orphan boy called "the ace" who was their leader? Thousands of examples in real life... How did most TCs know to speak Greek? Talking with enemies or talking with friends?

This forum is good for strong debates but no matter how strong the arguments there are always equally strong counter-arguments. Don't fall in the trap of been carried away by one sided arguments.

I took it seriously because I felt it came from Sotos' heart...
But thank heavens you exist Pyro,and come to remind us that there is still hope for Cypriots to discover their humanity and show some empathy and compassion for each other...I thank you for your sensible and sincere thoughts...

[boulio]

Soto's post was of the type "win the debate using everything you can". I am surprised you took it so seriously that you even replied dear Bir.

Honenstly I don't think there are many GCs who hold bad feelings against the TCs because of the 1571-1878 period simply because most of it comes from history books. On the contrary we have live evidence from the 1878-1950 period (albeit from our grandparents) that GCs and TCs were living in HARMONY, COOPERATION AND ...POVERTY all together.
After 1950 the British tried (USING SOME PEOPLE) to turn one community against the other, but did they really disturb the general feeling of brotherhood among the GCs and TCs? Imo nothing of that really had any effect.

Even today, after all those troubles of the 60s of the 1974 and so on and so on, there are many TCs and GCs who in real life feel for each other. Why, is it because of the Ottoman times, or is it because they actually lived together like brothers? Isn't it Miltiades in this forum who was in the orphanage and they had a TC orphan boy called "the ace" who was their leader? Thousands of examples in real life... How did most TCs know to speak Greek? Talking with enemies or talking with friends?

This forum is good for strong debates but no matter how strong the arguments there are always equally strong counter-arguments. Don't fall in the trap of been carried away by one sided arguments.

day to day i think the g/c and t/c would get along just fine if it wasent for outside interference.Look at the crossings ever day there hasent been serios incidents in six years

[BirKibrisli]

Soto's post was of the type "win the debate using everything you can". I am surprised you took it so seriously that you even replied dear Bir.

Honenstly I don't think there are many GCs who hold bad feelings against the TCs because of the 1571-1878 period simply because most of it comes from history books. On the contrary we have live evidence from the 1878-1950 period (albeit from our grandparents) that GCs and TCs were living in HARMONY, COOPERATION AND ...POVERTY all together.
After 1950 the British tried (USING SOME PEOPLE) to turn one community against the other, but did they really disturb the general feeling of brotherhood among the GCs and TCs? Imo nothing of that really had any effect.

Even today, after all those troubles of the 60s of the 1974 and so on and so on, there are many TCs and GCs who in real life feel for each other. Why, is it because of the Ottoman times, or is it because they actually lived together like brothers? Isn't it Miltiades in this forum who was in the orphanage and they had a TC orphan boy called "the ace" who was their leader? Thousands of examples in real life... How did most TCs know to speak Greek? Talking with enemies or talking with friends?

This forum is good for strong debates but no matter how strong the arguments there are always equally strong counter-arguments. Don't fall in the trap of been carried away by one sided arguments.

day to day i think the g/c and t/c would get along just fine if it wasent for outside interference.Look at the crossings ever day there hasent been serios incidents in six years

There is no doubt about that ,boulio...Since we are really the same people..How much of the original Anatolian settler is left in me you reckon??? 5%, 10 %??? And what do think the rest is,affter 400 years of living on a small island??? If we could only tear down the walls in our heads...And the walls in our hearts...

[aussieturk]

You are making the mistake of thinking the war is over. We're fighting Turkey all the way and with weapons she would love to have ...

Cyprus will be ours again, no doubt! ... If you want to be part of that, you should help in this war to remove Turkey, sooner, and not work against us, again, to keep the imperialist colonialist invaders here.

This time we are bigger than EOKA. The "E" is for Europe! [/quote]

Keep dreaming.

With talk like that the Island will NEVER be reunited

[aussieturk]

You are making the mistake of thinking the war is over. We're fighting Turkey all the way and with weapons she would love to have ...

Cyprus will be ours again, no doubt! ... If you want to be part of that, you should help in this war to remove Turkey, sooner, and not work against us, again, to keep the imperialist colonialist invaders here.

This time we are bigger than EOKA. The "E" is for Europe! [/quote]

Keep dreaming.

With talk like that the Island will NEVER be reunited