Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

This is the model that racists like Erol aspire to. Failing that, their model is the Ottoman conquests and subsequent ethnic cleansing/genocide, so they can Turkify by force a territory stolen from others.

Blah blah blah. Because I argue that TC had a seperate right to self determination in the face of GC that chose to define themselves not as Cypriots but as part of the Greek people and because I challenge the notion that just because Piratis and other GC percieved the valid legal rights granted to TC community under the 60's agreements 'unfair' then the recourse by them to secret plans and use of ethnic violence to illegaly remove those rights was '100% legal' then I must of course be a facist supporter of apartheid.

The pattern Piratis is as familar as it is boring. Attack my arguments. Then attack arguments I have never made but that you claim I make. Then attack me as an indivdual.

Yawn.

You are fascist because you support the crimes you committed against innocent GCs in the 50s as means to receive unfair privileges and powers on the expense of the majority of Cypriots.

You are a fascist because in the 60s instead of accepting to abolish those racist laws you imposed on us by force you instead choose to start killing people again.

You are a fascist because you support the killing of thousands and the ethnic cleansing of 100s of thousands and the "trnc", the result of these crimes. (just a while ago you were telling us about "TRNC laws" )

I have read through all this debate, and wow!! WOW!!! I just cant wait to rejoin you guys in one Island.

You have succeeded in turning another moderate TC who WAS not entirely opposed to the uniting of Cyprus as one people to someone who wants nothing of the sort.

So riddle me this guys: is the ROC the same in its legal entity as the one founded in 1960 if so should you not still abide by the constitution of 1960?
Just stick To legal arguments please.

If not shouldn’t a new constitution and a new state be formed, a state that would need to gain international recognition? Again just legal arguments please.

For those of you claim that enosis was your legal right as the majority of the Island, what happened to the Turks of Crete when enosis was achieved?

But that would never have happened in Cyprus right?….Except Nico Samson said that if he achieved enosis he would have wiped the Turks from the Island…. And what stopped Nico Samson?….. Yep that’s right Turkey’s intervention. An intervention that even an Athens court deemed as legal… now argue against it.

As I also understand it isn’t there a clause in the 1960 Constitution that says that Cyprus can never be joined to another country (enosis), divided (takism) or join a union that both Cyprus and Turkey are not part of?

What does that mean guys? Well it means that your claims of enosis as your legal right… is in fact illegal… and guess what your entry to the EU is also illegal… unless I have misunderstood something?

OH but wait… wait the 1960 constitution was unfair…. Well you should not have signed it should you. If I agree a contract with a business partner, then later on down the line decide this contract is unfair I either have to challenge it through courts of law… (but you threw out the judge) or try to renegotiate the contract, what I cant do is go around intimidating and trying to kill my partner because…. That would be ….. ILLIGAL

This is something that I posted on another thread but my questions remains unanswered.

Ok let me start by saying that I was born after 1974 so i have no direct experience. I have spoken to a lot of TCs and they have told me a lot of things but I will leave them out of this post as well.

I will only concentrate on what my father and my grandfather have told me because I know that what they say is a 100% accurate and have come through their personnel experiences rather then hearsay.

Ok my fathers family came from a town near pathos they all speak and write Greek as well as Turkish they grew up with Greek friends shared meals celebrations even intermarried.

From 1963 to 1968 (when they left Cyprus) two things happened to my family that shook them to the core and turned their world upside down.

The first thing was the kidnap and murder of six of my Dads cousins on the way to their work (we still have not found their bodies). The second thing was on a bus journey my Granddad who must of been in his, or close to his sixties at the time was marched off the bus at gun point and was going to be shoot. Some of people that were doing this knew him, I cant say they were friends of the family but they defiantly knew our family - he was only saved by the plea of a solitary greek woman on the bus who pleaded for them to stop (bless her - I dont who she is or if she is still alive but if I ever get the chance I would like to love to meet and thank her).

Because of this in 1968 when they had the chance to leave for london they did for their safety. Leaving behind approximately 50 donums of land.

So this is a family (my family) that fully intergrated in the way of a singular Cypriot community, they had was no secrete plan for Taksim no involvement in the TMT they lived in and loved Cyprus but they had to endure great losses at the hands of the people they knew and thought were friends and country men.

You quite rightly bring up the subject of insecurity and yes there was lot of insecurity but on top of this there is another huge factor that you miss out.
And that is of BETRAYAL.

TC were betrayed by the people that they saw as brothers, those that had come to eat in their houses, to play with their children to join them in celebrations etc etc.

These were the people that (and this was proved with happened to my granddad on the buss), were ready and willing to kill them.

But the betrayal does not stop their because not only were GC that they knew all of a sudden turning on them but the government itself and its President - the one that was supposed to represent us as well - was calling us the enemy, threatening to wipe us off the map (i can get you the quotes if you want).

Then there is the police force that to my knowledge (and if I am wrong please correct me and show me the relevant details) from 1963 - 1974 did not arrest and prosecute one eoka member- they were supposed to be our police force as well why were they not protecting us?

So yes scared and betrayed we went to enclaves and protected ourselves with the help of the TMT and Turkey. And what happens the government of Cyprus (supposedly our government as well) bans baby milk (amongst a whole heap of other things) from reaching Turkish Cypriot enclaves- BABY MILK, can the message be made any clearer?

So on to Today the world has changed no? ROC cyprus wants us back, wants us to become citizens again....

That is the picture that is being painted... but if you look closer you will see that we are still being descriminated against...

-Where are the criminal cases against those that killed our people?
-Why do we have to spend 6 months in a country that is NOW foreign to us to claim our land (this is against human rights)?
-Why do you encourage the embargo on our people in the North of Cyprus? ( i know the answer to this - but it does not make it right)
- Where are our missing people?
- why dont you teach your people more of what was done to the TCs - then they will be more open to reconciliation?
- why do you not come down hard on racism on Turks (graffitti- army t-shirt saying the only good turk is a dead turk- in football games and the recent student march - how many arrests were there?
- there is much more.... but I will stop

Yes I know that these questions can be put to the TRNC as well but the ROC is supposed to represent us as well as the GC (even now according to them) - if this is the case why are they still not working for us as well?

Do not expect any sensible answers to your questions from most of the GCs here,DTA...I have been trying for some time now to tell them my own personal experiences....All I get back is "you are lying and exaggerating to justify Turkey's expansionist policy"...Just look at Oracle's response above!!!Our GC friends do not want to hear any of that..Even the more moderate ones want to simply forget all the past and look to the future...Then they will tell you it is all a new world now,they have found this new club EU,where democracy and human rights reign supreme,and all is measured in economic wealth...So they want the TCs to send Turkey packing home and come and embrace them in this new world...So stop your whingeing and stop your attempts to justify Turkey's territorial ambitions,forget what your father and grandfather told you,and come and join the likes of bulio,Paphidis,Epsilon,Yialousa, GR,Oracle,Sotos,B25,Piratis et al,in their new democratic heaven..You will be all right,mate...

Well done Bir, if I may say so, you got it in one with last bit of your post (highlighted).

Any chance of dropping the usual offensive refs to "TCs" and "GCs" please ..... oh, and that wink at the end.

sure,Bill No problem...We will not mention GCs or TCs,and no winks at the end...(is a smile ok? )
We have two States in Cyprus,one recognised by the UN and one recognised only by Turkey...There are two populations,one a mixture of old and new Cypriots (of Turkish speaking background) and one of old Cypriots (of Greek and Armenian,and Maronite and Venetian backgrounds)...for some reason not everyone is happy about the status quo...we can't talk about why because all that is in the past...can we say these people are unhappy because they have had to abandon their homes and ancestral lands,for reasons we can't talk about,as it is all in the past...??? some of these people want to return to their ancestral homes and lands,and some don't...some say they might depending on the kind of comprehensive solution we might agree on...some people say they don't like some of the other Cypriots because they are new and have no right to be there...others say they don't like the whole bunch because they should never have arrived in the first place...Yet others say they do not want to risk going back to a period...oh but we can't talk about that because it is in the past...sharks!...over to you Bill...

[BirKibrisli]

and ive asked you Bir and YFRED AND VIEWPOINT QUESTIONS THAT go unanswered as well, forget sensabile we dont get asnwers period.

Like how many t/c died during the 1963-1974 intercommunal strife?
like what do t/c invision as federalism?
LIke do t/c respect individual property rights for people on both sides of the divide

etc etc etc etc

All we get is silence because something happended 40 years ago(and that still up in the air)
and in the same breath the TMT fired bombed homes but at the same time protected that prison(o meant village)

so lets get to the point BIR SINCE THIS IS A CYPRUS PROBLEM FORUM

HOW DO WE SOLVE THE PROBLEM,NO HISTORY LESSONS FROM YOU OR PIRATIS JUST PROBLEM SOLVING CAN YOU DO THAT?

OR SHOULD THE MOD OPEN A CYPRUS HISTORY BLOG AND YOU CAN POST THERE?

boulio,there is not much point answering your questions because you will dismiss everything as either lies,or exaggerations ,or justifications for hanging onto gains etc...i keep telling you that unless we deal with the past fairly and effectively and heal the wounds,WE WILL NEVER FIND A SOLUTION....all i get back is forget about the past,lets concentrate on today and tomorrow...I am telling you it is impossible..I wish it could happen boulio...I really do...But pigs don't fly mate..Though they too probably wish they could..

There are no simply answers,and those of you who want to sweep the past under the carpet and reduce everything to the TCs helping Turkey in her territorial ambitions are doing a disservice to our country...A solution if and when it happens,will be along the BBF lines,that much we all agree on...Both sides have their red lines,and we need to talk about those ,and find common ground to compromise...But we can't talk about our red lines without talking about the past...There you have it...Now go on and tell me I am just justifying Turkey's continued occupation and the TC gains against GC losses...And lets be done with it...

[Sotos]

I don't want to sweep the past under the carpet!!! I never allow that to happen! I demand an apology for all the crimes you have done against us from 1571 until now! Do you think we will erase 100s of years of crimes and oppression against us just like that? The first thing you should admit is that you shouldn't exist on this island in the first place. The creation of your minority on our island was a result of invasion, murders of many 1000s Cypriots, and oppression of the Cypriot population. If it wasn't for your aggression and expansionism Cyprus would be a peaceful democratic island with no problems at all. So don't sweep the past under the carpet! APOLOGIZE and ask for our forgiveness!!! Maybe we will forgive you but maybe not. We just had way too much suffering to forget so easily. Maybe you will need to be send back to Turkey for some years to give to us the chance to forgive you. Then maybe we will allow some of you to come back. So admit your crimes of 1571 -1878 and then we will move in the 50s! Nothing of the past will stay under the carpet!!

[Oracle]

... two populations,one a mixture of old and new Cypriots (of Turkish speaking background) and one of old Cypriots (of Greek and Armenian,and Maronite and Venetian backgrounds)...for some reason not everyone is happy about the status quo...we can't talk about why because all that is in the past...can we say these people are unhappy because they have had to abandon their homes and ancestral lands,for reasons we can't talk about,as it is all in the past...??? some of these people want to return to their ancestral homes and lands,and some don't...some say they might depending on the kind of comprehensive solution we might agree on...some people say they don't like some of the other Cypriots because they are new and have no right to be there...others say they don't like the whole bunch because they should never have arrived in the first place...Yet others say they do not want to risk going back to a period...oh but we can't talk about that because it is in the past...sharks!...over to you Bill...

But certain things are not "all in the past". Things for which there is legal certainty and absolute validation. That is, people still own their rightful homes.

So, the Cyprus Problem is perfectly simple and it will be solved in the present, without referral to your exaggerated concerns or recourse to a vague selectively chosen "past". Because people still OWN their rightful properties and it is their (today, present) Human Right to have them back ... This is our real present day solution!

[Tim Drayton]

Is this political Philosophy or Political Sofistry?

Your axiom says that a minority scattered all over territorially can have (applicable) self determination rights. Far from the truth. It happened nowhere on this planet. Your axiom is wrong therefore your whole theory is wrong. In such cases only the majority has (applicable) self determination rights.

http://130.94.183.89/parker/selfdet.html

http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_a ... index.html

To quote from your second source:

The right to self-determination typically accrues for any "people" - a group with common heritage, culture, language, religion, and geographic affinity

[my emphasis]

I think that the notion of the right of self-determination for all peoples was one of the greatest achievements of the 20th Centruy, and is a prerequisite for world peace and stability.

However, it has to be admitted that this notion is flawed by a fatal contradiction. The concept of a 'people' is ethnic, but the concept of political independence of necessity has a territorial dimension. The peoples of the world, unfortunately, do not all reside in neat, compartmentalised geographic units, but often share the same geographical space with people having other ethnic identities. How do you reconcile the resulting contradiction when two or more peoples share the same space and support conflicting political claims over that territory? A prime example would be Northern Ireland, at least as it was about 20 years ago, where Catholics perceived themselves to be part of Ireland and considered the British to be an occupying force, while Protestants considered themselves to be British. Yet the Protestant and Catholic population was spread over the whole territory. How do you grant both peoples the right of delf-determination.

[boomerang]

the answer lies with the acceptance of multiculturism hence democracy, human rights and the rule of law tim...

[YFred]

and ive asked you Bir and YFRED AND VIEWPOINT QUESTIONS THAT go unanswered as well, forget sensabile we dont get asnwers period.

Like how many t/c died during the 1963-1974 intercommunal strife?
like what do t/c invision as federalism?
LIke do t/c respect individual property rights for people on both sides of the divide

etc etc etc etc

All we get is silence because something happended 40 years ago(and that still up in the air)
and in the same breath the TMT fired bombed homes but at the same time protected that prison(o meant village)

so lets get to the point BIR SINCE THIS IS A CYPRUS PROBLEM FORUM

HOW DO WE SOLVE THE PROBLEM,NO HISTORY LESSONS FROM YOU OR PIRATIS JUST PROBLEM SOLVING CAN YOU DO THAT?

OR SHOULD THE MOD OPEN A CYPRUS HISTORY BLOG AND YOU CAN POST THERE?

Boulio, something didn't just happen 40 years ago, it started in 60 and we are still suffering to this day. TCs have suffered just as much in proportion, let’s not kid ourselves. Until the suffocation of the TCs is removed, you will not have that much cooperation from most of the moderates in TC society. Do you really expect us to be cooperative while at the same time trying to suffocate us? Where is you sense of fair play and justice for all?

Going back to the solution, you are right in the nature of the solution that most people will be able to go to their properties with compensation for loss of their properties. You are also right that some will not and should receive full compensation for their loss for the past and the future. But there is a lot more to be agreed for the solution. The governance issue is not a difficult one, this rotating presidency is a red herring. Why are we discussing what proportion when Cyprus can hold the Presidency for the same duration as the Germans? Why can't we have the eu model for Presidency?
After all we are in the bloody thing, aren't we?
Regarding my posts being condescending, certainly not. You are mis-reading my sense of humour. I do have some, I know its well hidden and very deep but it does surface every now and then.
We haven’t even mentioned the justice system yet?

[BirKibrisli]

I don't want to sweep the past under the carpet!!! I never allow that to happen! I demand an apology for all the crimes you have done against us from 1571 until now! Do you think we will erase 100s of years of crimes and oppression against us just like that? The first thing you should admit is that you shouldn't exist on this island in the first place. The creation of your minority on our island was a result of invasion, murders of many 1000s Cypriots, and oppression of the Cypriot population. If it wasn't for your aggression and expansionism Cyprus would be a peaceful democratic island with no problems at all. So don't sweep the past under the carpet! APOLOGIZE and ask for our forgiveness!!! Maybe we will forgive you but maybe not. We just had way too much suffering to forget so easily. Maybe you will need to be send back to Turkey for some years to give to us the chance to forgive you. Then maybe we will allow some of you to come back. So admit your crimes of 1571 -1878 and then we will move in the 50s! Nothing of the past will stay under the carpet!!

Thank you for being so honest and open,Sotos...
Believe it or not I understand your sentiments...I often look at our Aboriginee population here,and think about how much they suffered in the hands of their colonisers,and shake my head in wonderment- how can these people be so forgiving and non agressive...Let me say this,I sincerely wish the Ottomans had never attacked or captured Cyprus...I only have an incling of what it must've been like for the indigenious population at the time...I would be quite happy to say SORRY on their behalf,if that will make a difference..But Sotos,1571 was a long time ago...429 years if my math serves me right...Not even my great great great great grandfather was alive at the time...Nobody asked me or any of my ancestors for permission to capture Cyprus...Non of our ancestors came here voluntarily...They came either as soldiers or as forced settlers...And over the following hundreds of years they became part of this land,part of the Cypriot people...Cyprus is as much our home as it is yours now...We have nowhere else to go,nowhere else to call home...

It is my realisation that a lot of GCs feel like you do,though not all articulate it as openly as you have here,which made me reconsider my original position on the best solution for Cyprus...I would personally be very afraid to live together with people who are capable of holding on to centuries old bitterness and hatreds...And I cannot possibly advise the TC community to put themselves at the same risk as before,just to satisfy my romanticised belief and trust in humanity...What I think is neither here nor there,and the collective TC intuition/subconsciousness has already decided that we must live not togther but side by side, with enough safety precautions,so as not to invite still more pain and suffering for the future Cypriots,GC and TC alike...I am out of the picture now Sotos,and will probably never return to Cyprus...But you will have a very difficult time trying to convince those who live in the trnc to depart from their homeland...And you will not have too many of them apologising for something which happened more than 400 years ago...The fate of Cyprus is sealed,even a BBF will not keep your dark-hearted,ancient- hatred- filled selves safely apart from innocent TCs...

[erolz3]

I think that the notion of the right of self-determination for all peoples was one of the greatest achievements of the 20th Centruy, and is a prerequisite for world peace and stability.

However, it has to be admitted that this notion is flawed by a fatal contradiction. The concept of a 'people' is ethnic, but the concept of political independence of necessity has a territorial dimension. The peoples of the world, unfortunately, do not all reside in neat, compartmentalised geographic units, but often share the same geographical space with people having other ethnic identities. How do you reconcile the resulting contradiction when two or more peoples share the same space and support conflicting political claims over that territory? A prime example would be Northern Ireland, at least as it was about 20 years ago, where Catholics perceived themselves to be part of Ireland and considered the British to be an occupying force, while Protestants considered themselves to be British. Yet the Protestant and Catholic population was spread over the whole territory. How do you grant both peoples the right of delf-determination.

The right of a peoples to self determination does not equate to a right to an indpendant sovreign state exclusively theirs only - that is where you are getting into problems.

In the SIMPLEST of cases ONE way of expressing the right to self determination of peoples is via an unitary independant state.

In more complex situations like Cyprus where you have two peoples then compromise is required. That is the basis on which the 60's agreements were made.

TC were not granted unfair powers in those agreements as a reward by the world powers in order to stitch up GC in Cyprus. They were granted them as a reflection of both communites rights to self determination within a single nation state.

The problem remains that GC like Piratis refuse to accept that TC have such a right at all, NOT rights to their own state, but a right to have an effective voice as a community / people in their OWN shared state.

So he can justify first agreeing such a system for tatical advantage, then working in secret to illegaly remove the rights granted as a reflection of the TC communal rights to self determination using illegla ethnic violence as '100% legal' and 'restoration of justice'.

Accept that as far as GC define themselves as a people that excludes TC then TC have a sepertate and equal right to self determination and we can solve the Cyprus problem. Continue to deny we have such rights at all and we remain no closer to a solution than we were in 1955.

[Paphitis]

I think that the notion of the right of self-determination for all peoples was one of the greatest achievements of the 20th Centruy, and is a prerequisite for world peace and stability.

However, it has to be admitted that this notion is flawed by a fatal contradiction. The concept of a 'people' is ethnic, but the concept of political independence of necessity has a territorial dimension. The peoples of the world, unfortunately, do not all reside in neat, compartmentalised geographic units, but often share the same geographical space with people having other ethnic identities. How do you reconcile the resulting contradiction when two or more peoples share the same space and support conflicting political claims over that territory? A prime example would be Northern Ireland, at least as it was about 20 years ago, where Catholics perceived themselves to be part of Ireland and considered the British to be an occupying force, while Protestants considered themselves to be British. Yet the Protestant and Catholic population was spread over the whole territory. How do you grant both peoples the right of delf-determination.

The right of a peoples to self determination does not equate to a right to an indpendant sovreign state exclusively theirs only - that is where you are getting into problems.

In the SIMPLEST of cases ONE way of expressing the right to self determination of peoples is via an unitary independant state.

In more complex situations like Cyprus where you have two peoples then compromise is required. That is the basis on which the 60's agreements were made.

TC were not granted unfair powers in those agreements as a reward by the world powers in order to stitch up GC in Cyprus. They were granted them as a reflection of both communites rights to self determination within a single nation state.

The problem remains that GC like Piratis refuse to accept that TC have such a right at all, NOT rights to their own state, but a right to have an effective voice as a community / people in their OWN shared state.

So he can justify first agreeing such a system for tatical advantage, then working in secret to illegaly remove the rights granted as a reflection of the TC communal rights to self determination using illegla ethnic violence as '100% legal' and 'restoration of justice'.

Accept that as far as GC define themselves as a people that excludes TC then TC have a sepertate and equal right to self determination and we can solve the Cyprus problem. Continue to deny we have such rights at all and we remain no closer to a solution than we were in 1955.

Erolz, welcome back once again.

I need to ask you whether the TCs/Turkey are willing to return back to the 1959 Zurich agreements as is, or it that now a thing of the past?

The reason why I ask, is because some TCs and most certainly Turkey, are now making most unreasonable demands over and above the scope of TC rights as outlined within the 1959 Zurich Agreement. Turkey is demanding separate FIR, control of the Cypriot continental shelf, the right of the TC component state in the CONFEDERATION to be able to grant citizenship to any Turkish national, the maintenance of a Treaty of Guarantee causing many GCs to have security concerns, and a 3:2 rotating Presidency!

I hope you do understand that these demands are unacceptable.

So again I ask you, will the TCs/Turkey accept a complete return to the 1959 Zurich Agreement with only some slight amendments down the track such as the eventual annulment of the Treaty of Guarantee and Alliance? Or is the 1959 Zurich Agreement finished because Turkey sees an opportunity to make maximalist claims at our expense which will see it virtually have control over all of Cyprus?