Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz3]

This is the model that racists like Erol aspire to. Failing that, their model is the Ottoman conquests and subsequent ethnic cleansing/genocide, so they can Turkify by force a territory stolen from others.

Blah blah blah. Because I argue that TC had a seperate right to self determination in the face of GC that chose to define themselves not as Cypriots but as part of the Greek people and because I challenge the notion that just because Piratis and other GC percieved the valid legal rights granted to TC community under the 60's agreements 'unfair' then the recourse by them to secret plans and use of ethnic violence to illegaly remove those rights was '100% legal' then I must of course be a facist supporter of apartheid.

The pattern Piratis is as familar as it is boring. Attack my arguments. Then attack arguments I have never made but that you claim I make. Then attack me as an indivdual.

Yawn.

[Pyrpolizer]

Is this political Philosophy or Political Sofistry?

Your axiom says that a minority scattered all over territorially can have (applicable) self determination rights. Far from the truth. It happened nowhere on this planet. Your axiom is wrong therefore your whole theory is wrong. In such cases only the majority has (applicable) self determination rights.

http://130.94.183.89/parker/selfdet.html

http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_a ... index.html

I said applicable, not theoretical, not something that can exist ONLY as a wish.

[boulio]

The right to self-determination typically accrues for any "people" - a group with common heritage, culture, language, religion, and geographic affinity - when such a people lives within a larger mother-state

[erolz3]

speaking of governance erolz,what did you think of the recent turkish proposals of governace?

To be perfectly honest Boulio I have not looked at or considered them in any detail at all. I personally see little point in poring over every detail of essentialy 'leaked' proposals that are part of ongoing negotiations. If a final agreement is ever rezched and put before the respective communites for their consent then that is the time I will look in detail at the proposals and make up my mind about them.

[Get Real!]

Is this political Philosophy or Political Sofistry?

Your axiom says that a minority scattered all over territorially can have (applicable) self determination rights. Far from the truth. It happened nowhere on this planet. Your axiom is wrong therefore your whole theory is wrong. In such cases only the majority has (applicable) self determination rights.

http://130.94.183.89/parker/selfdet.html

http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_a ... index.html

The right of self-determination is that of countries or “peoples” as the UN refers to them…

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/ccpr.htm

…but when it comes to the rights of ethnic groups such as the Turkish Cypriots, then the appropriate charter is that of the…

”Declaration on the Rights of Persons Belonging to National or Ethnic, Religious and Linguistic Minorities”

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/minorities.htm

So let’s not get the two confused!


If you’ve got the time you can read my full article here…

http://thecyprusproblem.100webspace.net ... icle32.htm

[B25]

Is this political Philosophy or Political Sofistry?

Your axiom says that a minority scattered all over territorially can have (applicable) self determination rights. Far from the truth. It happened nowhere on this planet. Your axiom is wrong therefore your whole theory is wrong. In such cases only the majority has (applicable) self determination rights.

http://130.94.183.89/parker/selfdet.html

http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_a ... index.html

Your links are BS as is the rest of your analysis.

Where in those abstracts does it qualify you to invade, murder, rape and usurp lands in order to achieve this 'self determination' ??

It is a study as to whether self determination of a group is viable due to s given set of circumstances, not those detailed above.

You keep on preaching us about the TC LEGAL rights, what utter rubbish, I could say sod off back to Turkey, how dare you come here forcibly and demand these LEGAL rights? But I won't, only to say the GC had many more rights than you were ever due and any that you did manage to get by your treacherous behavior with the imperialists to far too many for you anyway.

You want to talk legal, get your own house in order first mate, Turkey has violated just about every law written, yet you have the audacity to come here and complain about your '1960 legal rights', you are taking the piss, seriously.

Piratis has you over a barrel and you are out of ammunition, the only thing you got over us it Turkeys military might and you continue to use that stick to beat us with.

if you feel you have these 'rights' go challenge them in some court, you will be laughed all the way to outer mongolia.

You forfeited any 'rights' when you walked out and you certain lost them when you turned against us during the invasion where NATOs best showed us how tough they were by raping 15 y.o and grannies and murdering invalid confined to beds.

problem with you, is you would not grant to the minorities (Kurds) their own state when they make up 40% of the population yet you demand such rewards to the detriment of the GC people.

Remember always you came to us, you invaded us more than once yet you have the nerve to play the victim, guess what, no one is listening, we have proven our resilience and sometime soon the balance of power WILL change, we just need to work on it, you won't be here forever, dream on.

I am with Piratis, everything he say is logical, accurate, and as it is. You and your ilk are full of it.

If you don't like it, your mother is 40 miles north, I'll pay for the ticket, bye bye.

[Piratis]

In the 50s you collaborated with foreign imperialists, attacked us, threatened us with annihilating us from half of our island and as a reward the foreign Imperialists granted to you unfair and disproportional gains on our expense.

The GC leadership was of course not collaborating with the foreign imperialist power of Greece in order to try and secure the annexation of Cyprus and all its people to the Greek nation ? You of course used no violence or threats of violence or actual violence against us.

We didn't need to use any violence. All we wanted was a referendum so we could peacefully and democratically decide the destiny of our own island. This was denied to us by the Imperialists and this is why we revolted. We revolted against the Imperialists and those who collaborated with them, not with your community. Your community became the ememy only when you choose to attack us, and you started to burn the homes and shops of innocent people and commiting massacures against innocent unarmed people just because they were GCs.

You can shout 'unfair' 'unfair' and 'foreign imperilaists' 'foreign imperalists' till you are blue in the face and no doubt will. It does not change the FACT that the RIGHTS granted to the TC community in the 1960's AGREEMENTS were LEAGLY VALID in every and any sense of the meaning of such words.

The fact is that Republic of Cyprus today is ruled democratically by the majority of the people, just like it should be, and as such it is recognized by the whole world. On the other hand your pseudo state is declared illegal and invalid. These are the facts and you can not change them.

In 1963 you simply lost those unfair gains. This was not any "gain" for us, but just a the negation of the previous injustice against us.

We did not 'simply loose our legal valid rights' like we somehow left them on a bus and forgot where we put them. We had them taken from us by a GC leadership following a laid out pre defined planned as to how to do so, a plan the recognised there was no legal means of removing them and thus sought to use deception, trickery and where necessary illegal ethinc violence.

Nowhere near the deception, trickery and ethnic violence you used to get those ill received gains in the first place.

I will say once more that just because you considered these LEGALY VALID rights to be unfair that does NOT confer on you a right to use deception, trickery and ethinc violence to remove them. There are any number of laws withing the TRNC or the RoC or the UK that I consider to be 'unfair'. That does not however give me a right to start killing people in order to have these laws removed.

You are the ones who started the conflict mate. Makarios simply made proposals, he didn't kill anybody.

You didn't seem to have a problem killing innocent people in the 50s to gain those unfair racist gains. You also didn't seem to have a problem killing 1000s and ethnically cleansing 100s of thousands in order to get those "trnc laws" either.

You say that you losing those ill received gains was something "illegal". Show me the court case you won about this to prove it.

I am afriad Piratis this is not how it works. If the rights granted to the TC community were as you claim so unfair as to make them legaly invalid then why did a GC leadership not choose to use legal means to remove them, but instead drew up a secret plan of deception, trickery and ethnic violence to do so?

There was no such plan. Makarios simply made proposals for democratic reforms. The only plan we had was one of how we would react if you started to kill people again, like you did in the 50s. Do you blame us for being prepared on how to react in case you started the killings again?

I can show you a case where TC sought to have aspects of their legal rights confirmed by a valid court of law, the case when they took the issue of municipalites to the Cypriot consitutional court. Just as I can show you Makarios refusal to abide by that legal courts rulings when it upheld the TC communites rights in this regard, leading to the destruction of said court in the process.

Sure. And I am sure you can also show me laws from the Ottoman era saying that the Christian testimony is not even accepted in the courts. I don't recognize any unfair laws imposed on the Cypriot people by foreign Imperialists.

Just like you managed to legalize unfair gains on our expense in 1960, we managed to restore justice in 100% legal way.

That you can even dare to claim that the way the TC communites legaly vaild rights under the 60's agreements were removed from them was '100% legal' just shows how clearly delusional you are. I understand your need to beleieve this is so, but it does not make it so.

You ill received gains have been legally removed. I don't see any TC vice president and I don't see you able to veto anything, do you?

You played with the system to have unfair gains, and we played with the system too, not to gain anything unfair on your expense - as you had done, but simply to restore justice.

We gained legaly valid rights under the 60's agreements and you set out and implemented a secret plan to remove those rights using deception, trickery and where necessary ethic violence. Of course our legaly vaild rights were 'invalid' and you illegal means of removing them were just a 'restoration of justice' - and all beacause YOU say so.

You gained racist and unfair privilages on the expense of the Cypriot people by means of deception, trickery, ethnic violence and collaboration with foreign Imperialists and those ill received gains were rightly removed from you.

So don't tell me that we "made" you separate in the 50s with our struggle for enosis.

I am telling you a plain and simple truth. That you find that truth unplalatable and it is something you are incapable of accepting does not change its reality.

You denying that you had been separate since the time you first invaded our island does not change reality. This is the truth.

Indpedance of Cyprus was and is a cause that can validly be persued in the name of single unitary Cypriot people.

Too bad that by independence you mean your minority imposing undemocratically its will on the majority of the Cypriot people. This is not independence but enslavement of the kind we had during Ottoman rule.

Annexation / union of Cyprus to Greece was and is a cause that can only be validly claimed in the name of Greeks that are an indivsable part of the Greek people as far as self determination goes and not in the name of a single unitary people of a cypriot nation that enosis itself says does not exist.

The 50%+1 vote is what is required for Cyprus to unite with Greece, EU or any other entity the Cypriots want their own island to unite with.

I KNOW these truths are painful to you piratis and they mess with your head but they are truths none the less.

Sure sure. I remember how you were saying that Cyprus could not unite with EU without your approval. Well, Cyprus is an EU member today and this is very painful for you. After all you came here now to vent your anger after realizing that our courts can convict you for what you are doing in occupied Cyprus and have their rulings enforced anywhere in EU.

Your idea that ethnic minorities have the right to ethnically cleanse others and steal their lands whenever they don't agree with the majority is obviously a load of bullshit. I don't need to say more on this, since there are UN resolutions and several court cases that prove this.[/quote]

As ever Piratis when you are done disagreeing with things I have said you then add in for good measure countering things I have not and have never said. No where have I said that the rights of the TC community either as a community within cyprus or a people seperate to the Greek people living in Cyprus have a right to ethically cleanse or steal land.
[/quote]

This is perfectly clear by your support for the "trnc".

What I do say is clear and simple and I have said it over and over again. As long as you are intelectually incapable of accepting that TC had and have a right to determine their own futures in their own homeland along with GC that historicaly chose to define themselves as part of the Greek people then we are no closer to a solution in cyprus than we were in 55,60,63, 65,74,78,85, 2004 or now.

The TCs have the same right as any other minority in any other country. The Greeks in Turkey for example. If you believe that minorities are not given enough rights, then practice what you preach with the Greek minority in Turkey, and then come to demand the same for your minority in Cyprus.

What I want for Cyprus is what is the case in all other democratic countries, nothing more and nothing less. If you are a criminal and you want to have gains on our expense this doesn't mean I should ever accept this, and all I can do is to fight for justice. This is what we will continue doing.

[Piratis]

This is the model that racists like Erol aspire to. Failing that, their model is the Ottoman conquests and subsequent ethnic cleansing/genocide, so they can Turkify by force a territory stolen from others.

Blah blah blah. Because I argue that TC had a seperate right to self determination in the face of GC that chose to define themselves not as Cypriots but as part of the Greek people and because I challenge the notion that just because Piratis and other GC percieved the valid legal rights granted to TC community under the 60's agreements 'unfair' then the recourse by them to secret plans and use of ethnic violence to illegaly remove those rights was '100% legal' then I must of course be a facist supporter of apartheid.

The pattern Piratis is as familar as it is boring. Attack my arguments. Then attack arguments I have never made but that you claim I make. Then attack me as an indivdual.

Yawn.

You are fascist because you support the crimes you committed against innocent GCs in the 50s as means to receive unfair privileges and powers on the expense of the majority of Cypriots.

You are a fascist because in the 60s instead of accepting to abolish those racist laws you imposed on us by force you instead choose to start killing people again.

You are a fascist because you support the killing of thousands and the ethnic cleansing of 100s of thousands and the "trnc", the result of these crimes. (just a while ago you were telling us about "TRNC laws" )

[Pyrpolizer]

In the 50s you collaborated with foreign imperialists, attacked us, threatened us with annihilating us from half of our island and as a reward the foreign Imperialists granted to you unfair and disproportional gains on our expense.

The GC leadership was of course not collaborating with the foreign imperialist power of Greece in order to try and secure the annexation of Cyprus and all its people to the Greek nation ? You of course used no violence or threats of violence or actual violence against us.

You can shout 'unfair' 'unfair' and 'foreign imperilaists' 'foreign imperalists' till you are blue in the face and no doubt will. It does not change the FACT that the RIGHTS granted to the TC community in the 1960's AGREEMENTS were LEAGLY VALID in every and any sense of the meaning of such words.

In 1963 you simply lost those unfair gains. This was not any "gain" for us, but just a the negation of the previous injustice against us.

We did not 'simply loose our legal valid rights' like we somehow left them on a bus and forgot where we put them. We had them taken from us by a GC leadership following a laid out pre defined planned as to how to do so, a plan the recognised there was no legal means of removing them and thus sought to use deception, trickery and where necessary illegal ethinc violence.

I will say once more that just because you considered these LEGALY VALID rights to be unfair that does NOT confer on you a right to use deception, trickery and ethinc violence to remove them. There are any number of laws withing the TRNC or the RoC or the UK that I consider to be 'unfair'. That does not however give me a right to start killing people in order to have these laws removed.

You say that you losing those ill received gains was something "illegal". Show me the court case you won about this to prove it.

I am afriad Piratis this is not how it works. If the rights granted to the TC community were as you claim so unfair as to make them legaly invalid then why did a GC leadership not choose to use legal means to remove them, but instead drew up a secret plan of deception, trickery and ethnic violence to do so?

I can show you a case where TC sought to have aspects of their legal rights confirmed by a valid court of law, the case when they took the issue of municipalites to the Cypriot consitutional court. Just as I can show you Makarios refusal to abide by that legal courts rulings when it upheld the TC communites rights in this regard, leading to the destruction of said court in the process.

Just like you managed to legalize unfair gains on our expense in 1960, we managed to restore justice in 100% legal way.

That you can even dare to claim that the way the TC communites legaly vaild rights under the 60's agreements were removed from them was '100% legal' just shows how clearly delusional you are. I understand your need to beleieve this is so, but it does not make it so.

You played with the system to have unfair gains, and we played with the system too, not to gain anything unfair on your expense - as you had done, but simply to restore justice.

We gained legaly valid rights under the 60's agreements and you set out and implemented a secret plan to remove those rights using deception, trickery and where necessary ethic violence. Of course our legaly vaild rights were 'invalid' and you illegal means of removing them were just a 'restoration of justice' - and all beacause YOU say so.

So don't tell me that we "made" you separate in the 50s with our struggle for enosis.

I am telling you a plain and simple truth. That you find that truth unplalatable and it is something you are incapable of accepting does not change its reality.

Indpedance of Cyprus was and is a cause that can validly be persued in the name of single unitary Cypriot people.

Annexation / union of Cyprus to Greece was and is a cause that can only be validly claimed in the name of Greeks that are an indivsable part of the Greek people as far as self determination goes and not in the name of a single unitary people of a cypriot nation that enosis itself says does not exist.

I KNOW these truths are painful to you piratis and they mess with your head but they are truths none the less.

Your idea that ethnic minorities have the right to ethnically cleanse others and steal their lands whenever they don't agree with the majority is obviously a load of bullshit. I don't need to say more on this, since there are UN resolutions and several court cases that prove this.

As ever Piratis when you are done disagreeing with things I have said you then add in for good measure countering things I have not and have never said. No where have I said that the rights of the TC community either as a community within cyprus or a people seperate to the Greek people living in Cyprus have a right to ethically cleanse or steal land.

What I do say is clear and simple and I have said it over and over again. As long as you are intelectually incapable of accepting that TC had and have a right to determine their own futures in their own homeland along with GC that historicaly chose to define themselves as part of the Greek people then we are no closer to a solution in cyprus than we were in 55,60,63, 65,74,78,85, 2004 or now.

Not LEGAL according to EU Aquis of TODAY. Therefore those "legal in every and any sense of the meaning of such words" were simply in legal error.

[DTA]

This is the model that racists like Erol aspire to. Failing that, their model is the Ottoman conquests and subsequent ethnic cleansing/genocide, so they can Turkify by force a territory stolen from others.

Blah blah blah. Because I argue that TC had a seperate right to self determination in the face of GC that chose to define themselves not as Cypriots but as part of the Greek people and because I challenge the notion that just because Piratis and other GC percieved the valid legal rights granted to TC community under the 60's agreements 'unfair' then the recourse by them to secret plans and use of ethnic violence to illegaly remove those rights was '100% legal' then I must of course be a facist supporter of apartheid.

The pattern Piratis is as familar as it is boring. Attack my arguments. Then attack arguments I have never made but that you claim I make. Then attack me as an indivdual.

Yawn.

You are fascist because you support the crimes you committed against innocent GCs in the 50s as means to receive unfair privileges and powers on the expense of the majority of Cypriots.

You are a fascist because in the 60s instead of accepting to abolish those racist laws you imposed on us by force you instead choose to start killing people again.

You are a fascist because you support the killing of thousands and the ethnic cleansing of 100s of thousands and the "trnc", the result of these crimes. (just a while ago you were telling us about "TRNC laws" )

I have read through all this debate, and wow!! WOW!!! I just cant wait to rejoin you guys in one Island.

You have succeeded in turning another moderate TC who WAS not entirely opposed to the uniting of Cyprus as one people to someone who wants nothing of the sort.

So riddle me this guys: is the ROC the same in its legal entity as the one founded in 1960 if so should you not still abide by the constitution of 1960?
Just stick To legal arguments please.

If not shouldn’t a new constitution and a new state be formed, a state that would need to gain international recognition? Again just legal arguments please.

For those of you claim that enosis was your legal right as the majority of the Island, what happened to the Turks of Crete when enosis was achieved?

But that would never have happened in Cyprus right?….Except Nico Samson said that if he achieved enosis he would have wiped the Turks from the Island…. And what stopped Nico Samson?….. Yep that’s right Turkey’s intervention. An intervention that even an Athens court deemed as legal… now argue against it.

As I also understand it isn’t there a clause in the 1960 Constitution that says that Cyprus can never be joined to another country (enosis), divided (takism) or join a union that both Cyprus and Turkey are not part of?

What does that mean guys? Well it means that your claims of enosis as your legal right… is in fact illegal… and guess what your entry to the EU is also illegal… unless I have misunderstood something?

OH but wait… wait the 1960 constitution was unfair…. Well you should not have signed it should you. If I agree a contract with a business partner, then later on down the line decide this contract is unfair I either have to challenge it through courts of law… (but you threw out the judge) or try to renegotiate the contract, what I cant do is go around intimidating and trying to kill my partner because…. That would be ….. ILLIGAL

This is something that I posted on another thread but my questions remains unanswered.

Ok let me start by saying that I was born after 1974 so i have no direct experience. I have spoken to a lot of TCs and they have told me a lot of things but I will leave them out of this post as well.

I will only concentrate on what my father and my grandfather have told me because I know that what they say is a 100% accurate and have come through their personnel experiences rather then hearsay.

Ok my fathers family came from a town near pathos they all speak and write Greek as well as Turkish they grew up with Greek friends shared meals celebrations even intermarried.

From 1963 to 1968 (when they left Cyprus) two things happened to my family that shook them to the core and turned their world upside down.

The first thing was the kidnap and murder of six of my Dads cousins on the way to their work (we still have not found their bodies). The second thing was on a bus journey my Granddad who must of been in his, or close to his sixties at the time was marched off the bus at gun point and was going to be shoot. Some of people that were doing this knew him, I cant say they were friends of the family but they defiantly knew our family - he was only saved by the plea of a solitary greek woman on the bus who pleaded for them to stop (bless her - I dont who she is or if she is still alive but if I ever get the chance I would like to love to meet and thank her).

Because of this in 1968 when they had the chance to leave for london they did for their safety. Leaving behind approximately 50 donums of land.

So this is a family (my family) that fully intergrated in the way of a singular Cypriot community, they had was no secrete plan for Taksim no involvement in the TMT they lived in and loved Cyprus but they had to endure great losses at the hands of the people they knew and thought were friends and country men.

You quite rightly bring up the subject of insecurity and yes there was lot of insecurity but on top of this there is another huge factor that you miss out.
And that is of BETRAYAL.

TC were betrayed by the people that they saw as brothers, those that had come to eat in their houses, to play with their children to join them in celebrations etc etc.

These were the people that (and this was proved with happened to my granddad on the buss), were ready and willing to kill them.

But the betrayal does not stop their because not only were GC that they knew all of a sudden turning on them but the government itself and its President - the one that was supposed to represent us as well - was calling us the enemy, threatening to wipe us off the map (i can get you the quotes if you want).

Then there is the police force that to my knowledge (and if I am wrong please correct me and show me the relevant details) from 1963 - 1974 did not arrest and prosecute one eoka member- they were supposed to be our police force as well why were they not protecting us?

So yes scared and betrayed we went to enclaves and protected ourselves with the help of the TMT and Turkey. And what happens the government of Cyprus (supposedly our government as well) bans baby milk (amongst a whole heap of other things) from reaching Turkish Cypriot enclaves- BABY MILK, can the message be made any clearer?

So on to Today the world has changed no? ROC cyprus wants us back, wants us to become citizens again....

That is the picture that is being painted... but if you look closer you will see that we are still being descriminated against...

-Where are the criminal cases against those that killed our people?
-Why do we have to spend 6 months in a country that is NOW foreign to us to claim our land (this is against human rights)?
-Why do you encourage the embargo on our people in the North of Cyprus? ( i know the answer to this - but it does not make it right)
- Where are our missing people?
- why dont you teach your people more of what was done to the TCs - then they will be more open to reconciliation?
- why do you not come down hard on racism on Turks (graffitti- army t-shirt saying the only good turk is a dead turk- in football games and the recent student march - how many arrests were there?
- there is much more.... but I will stop

Yes I know that these questions can be put to the TRNC as well but the ROC is supposed to represent us as well as the GC (even now according to them) - if this is the case why are they still not working for us as well?