erolz3 wrote:I must resist posting - I must resist posting - oh sod it.Piratis wrote: I have shown time and again that the demand for enosis was a 100% legitimate one and that our struggle was turned against the colonialists, not against you.
The demand for enosis was a legitimate demand from Greeks that lived in Cyprus. It was not and is not a legitimate demand of a single unitary Cypriot people of a single unitary Cypriot nation for it says there is no such thing as a Cypriot people, just a geographical place called Cyprus that has a lot of Greeks on it and some other people who are not Greek. By saying we are Greek and part of the Greek people and nation you by definition said TC who were not Greek were part of some other people and thus had seperate rights as a people that was not Greek. The illegitimate part of Enosis was the claim that it was and is the expression of the will of a single unitary people called Cypriots. You can not both say we are not Cypriots as a people but a part of the Greek people, but we say this in the name of a Cypriot people we deny exists, yet this is what it was necessary for you to say to try and 'legitimise' your goal and force you will on cypriots in Cyprus who were not greek, depriving them of their right to self determination.
There was no difference between Cyprus and any other Greek territory, Athens, Patra, Crete, Rhodes etc. These are all territories with a majority of Greek population, which at some point have been invaded, occupied and oppressed by Ottomans (Cyprus was one of the last to fall under Ottoman rule). During this time a small Muslim minority was formed in all of those territories. This was the same not just with the Ottoman empire, but with all other empires. This is how minorities of white people were created in African countries for example.
Being Cypriot did not refer to an ethnicity or a nationality, but to a locality in the same way we talk about an Athenian or Cretan.
If you say that Cyprus didn't have the right to be part of a united Greek nation, you would have to say the same for every other Greek island, city and village which had some Muslim/Turkish minority in it. According to your logic Greeks didn't have the right for freedom and a unified Greek state.
You would have to say the same for all other territories (islands, cities, villages etc) which have been part of other foreign Empires. That those territories did not have the right to be free and to unite in a single nation, just because a minority from the population of their former oppressors still existed on those territories.
Union with Greece was a 100% legitimate demand because it was supported by the vast majority of Cypriots. Minorities exist everywhere, but minorities have human and minority rights, not the right to decide where a territory should belong and where it shouldn't. We do not live in the middle ages when your minority could undemocratically take such decisions.
If Cyprus could be under Ottoman or British rule against the will of the vast majority of Cypriots, then surely it could be part of a united Greek Republic, which was the democratic choice of the vast majority of the population of this island.
To say the struggle for enosis was turned only against colonialists is a blatant bald face lie of stunning proportions, even by your own warped standards Piratis. The struggle for enosis was turned against ALL those that represented a block and obstical for the achievement of Enosis. It attacked GC that opposed enosis, it attacked the British because they were a block on achieving enosis and it attacked TC because they were a block on enosis. Those seeking enosis did this through the 50,60 and into the 70s. That is the simple truth of the matter regardless of yopur propaganda.
The struggle was turned against the Colonialists and those who collaborated with them. There are always the "Loyalists" and "Royalists" in every revolution. The important point here is that the TC community was not a target. Only if a TC was collaborating with the colonialists against the liberation struggle he would become a target, just like any GC who did the same. (although GC communists were also a target of EOKA, a crime which was unrelated to the liberation struggle. But EOKA did not target TC communists, this is what TMT did)
Innocent TCs who were not collaborating with the Colonialists were not a target. The burning of homes and shops of innocent people and the massacres of innocent people were both started by TMT against GCs in June of 1958.
Piratis wrote:It is your (TMT) actions which caused the inter-communal conflict. Just because you didn't agree with the legitimate rights of the Cypriot people this doesn't mean you had the right to attack innocent people, and demand our annihilation from half of our island.
What caused the intercommunal fighting was the fact that GC in the pursuit of enosis sought to remove any obstacles to that goal by any means including the use of illegal violence where necessary, be they GC, TC or non Cypriot. We did not have a right to block enosis by the use of violence any more than you had a right to try and achieve it through violence yet in the end this iw what both did to varying degress. What we did have is a right as a people, seperate from you as part of the Greek people to determine our own futures as a people. Enosis said you were part of the Greek peoples and in doing so it made us not part of that people and thus some other people to you. That is what enosis did and in doing so gave us a legitimate right as a people, seperate from you.
If you wanted to be separate from us then you shouldn't have come to our island. You choose to come to an island which had a Greek majority for 1000s of years, we didn't bring you here. You have every right to determine your own future, but the future of a territory which we have been the vast majority for 1000s of years is something that we have the right to determine and not you.
The struggle for enosis started only when the Cypriot people were denied the right to peacefully and democratically choose the destiny of their own island among legitimate choices. If we were allowed to vote in a referendum then enosis could be achieved without any need for any violence.
Piratis wrote:The TCs have no moral or any other excuse for a separate state on land stolen from GCs.
When you chose to define yourselves as part of the Greerk people, you by definition made us people who live in Cyprus and are NOT part of the same people as you and thus part of some 'other' people -
Wow!! You just discovered ethnic minorities something which exists everywhere
And you were separate people since the time you first invaded our island and you choose to come here. During Ottoman rule the Cypriots were divided between Muslims and Christians. So don't tell me that we "made" you separate in the 50s with our struggle for enosis. You choose to be separate for centuries. As I said you choose to be a minority among a majority of Greeks, and if you don't like this fact you can blame it on your ancestors, not us. complete with the rights of a people seperate from you. Those rights do not include a right to a seperate homeland but they did and do include the right to say that some other people can not impose on us a future for us and our country which we do not want and in which we have no effective say at all.
Minorities do not have any separate rights. You can have your human and minority right, but no right whatsoever to undemocratically decide where the island should belong and where it shouldn't.
Piratis wrote:They didn't have any moral ground for the disproportionally high powers and privileges that were granted to them by the Imperialists in 1960.
Here we get to the nub of the issue and expose your claim to place 'legality' above all else as the BS that it truely is. The rights granted to the TC community in Cyprus in the 1960 agreements may well have been 'unfair' but the fact is and remains that however unfair they were they were also LEGALLY VALID in EVERY sense of the word. Law and especially international law can be and often is 'unfair' yet it remains LEGALLY VALID. The argument that they are 'invalidated' because they were the result of 'unequal barganning power' of those that were a party to them holds no water legally. It highlights the very essential difference between national law and international law. International law is by definition an expression of the interests of states expressed through bi lateral and multi lateral agreements. Every international agreement between states is the result of 'unequal power' of those signing the agreements but they remain LEGALY VALID none the less for if they were not then every and any international agreement could be challenged on the basis that 'we had less power than the other signatories, therefore our solemen signature on the agreement means nothing'. To then say that because YOU deem these signed agreements as unfair you can without recourse to ANY legal process simply decide that this and that aspect of them are 'invlid' but not other aspects that suit your needs and enforce this unilateral decision using violence just shows how much you REALLY respect law and legality, national and international.
There was and is no LEGAL way to remove the, possibly unfair but totaly LEGAL, rights granted to the TC community in the 60's agreements without the TC communities consent. This is why GC leaderships have never challenged these legal rights of the TC community in any international court of law but instead drew up a plan for their illegal removal using deception, subversion and as necessary ethnic violence.
I mostly agree with the legal aspects of what you said. Yes, legally, the TCs had those rights and they still have them. However if you accept the use of deception, subversion, ethnic violence and collaboration with foreign Imperialists in order to receive those gains, then you should also accept similar methods that would remove from TCs the ill received gains.
Makarios proposed changes in 1963 that would remove some of those ill received gains. The TCs could have said "OK, we accept that some of what was given to us is unfair, so lets see those proposals and lets discuss them so we can modify the constitution and make it a more fair and democratic one". They didn't do this though. They wanted the 100% of their ill received gains.
However I am not sure that the consent of TCs is required for any kind of change. If something can be shown to be racist and in contradiction of EU laws (which take precedence) then maybe it could change without your consent.
Piratis wrote:Both are ill received gains, which the TCs got by collaborating with foreign Imperialists. The TCs help the foreign Imperialists serve their interests in Cyprus, and in return the foreign Imperialist grand to the TCs gains on our expense. None of this is moral.
This idea that we coluded with imperial powers to thwart you is also BS in the sense that you did exactly the same and to much greater reward in the end. It was YOU that sought to internationalise the problem in the first place, taking the cyprus problem to the UN in the 50's. Whilst you failed to get what you hoped to get in the 60's agreements through the use of collaboration with imperial powers and the exploiting of their self interest, you subsequently got massive gains, despite all morality and legality, at the expense of the TC community from foreign imperialist powers persuing their own self interest in 1964 with the UN decleration. The imperalist powers at that time cared only for heading off direct conflict between the NATO allies of Greece and Turkey. The easiest means for those powers to meet THEIR self interest was to place UN troops in Cyprus and the only way to do this was to accept the 'legitimacy' of an all GC run government in Cyprus.
Thus the biggest 'gain' the GC community gained over the TC community in Cyprus was the result of the GC helping foreign imperialist powers to serve their own self interests despite all legality and in return being granted 'legitimacy' at the expense of TC community. None of this was moral, but as it was to your advantage none of it needs understanding or scrutiny.
What was immoral were the powers and privileges that were granted to your minority as a reward for helping the imperialists defeat the Cypriot revolution so they could maintain their troops and control over parts of our island.
Taking away those ill received gains is 100% moral.
It is sad that your community does not participate in the Republic of Cyprus but apparently you don't want to participate in it unless you get all the ill received gains of 1960, plus a lot more.
On the other hand we welcome your participation in Republic of Cyprus, as long as this participation is proportional. A proportional participation of TCs would be the most moral and most fair for all. Failing that (due to your greediness) then the second most moral is RoC as we have it today. Your minority having 50% power and all those unfair ill received gains is the least moral and least fair.
Piratis wrote:What the TCs have right for is to be equal Cypriot citizens, with the 100% of their human and democratic rights.
No Piratis, what we LEGALLY have a right to as a community in Cyprus is what is defined in the LEGALY VALID 1960's agreements. If you have those rights removed by some sort of international LEGAL process then fine I will accept that they are not any more LEGALLY valid. However if you simply declare unilateraly that those LEGAL rights are 'unfair' to you and thus you can arbitarily remove them at will and without any legal process then I will not accept such a claim. That you subsequently managed to exploit the self interest of foreign imperial powers to first tacitly and then explicity recognise an all GC run government in Cyprus as 'legitimate', despite its planned illegal use of ethinc violence against the TC community to remove those LEGAL rights does not change the fact that our RIGHTS as a COMMUNITY are LEGALY defined in LEAGLLY VALID international agreements.
Your collaboration with the foreign imperialists and the ill received gains you got on our expense as a result is the root of the Cyprus Problem. Ensois with Greece that bothers you so much is something that stopped being an issue from 1968. However you continue in the same way as you did in the 50s, and you continue collaborating with foreign imperialists, keeping half of our island as hostage, and trying to blackmail us to sign away even more of our rights to you ... just like you did in the 50s.
Either you like it or not Republic of Cyprus is 100% legitimate, but your occupation and the "trnc" are not. Feel free to stop your illegal occupation and return to your legal rights in Republic of Cyprus. We are not the ones who stop you from enjoying your legal rights (even the unfair ones). What stops you is your own greediness, since you are trying to extract even more gains on our expense.
So stop your illegalities, return to Republic of Cyprus, get the 100% of your legal rights, and then we will start the international legal process you talked about to remove from you the ill received racist gains.
Piratis wrote:If the TCs continue to dream that they are the winners, then in reality they will continue to be the biggest losers. Only when they will realize that they can not gain on our expense we will be able to find a solution. If they insist on having gains on our expense, then we will lose, but they will lose even more.
Whilst you continue to dream that you can simply get away with the illegal removal of the TC communities valid legal rights as a community and without consequence then you and us will continue to be loosers and their will be no winners. Only when you realise that you have ALREADY gained at our expesne when you sucsessfully manipulated the self interests of foreign imperialists powers to gain 'recognition' at our expense, despite legality and as a result of your use of illegal ethinc violence against us will we have a chance of finding a solution. If you insit that everything YOU gained at our expense by the use of illegal ethic violence against us and the sucsessful exploitation of the self iterest of foreign imperalist powers to your favour, is yours to keep but everything you lost via the same means must be returned then we will lose and you will lose. This is where we have been since 1964 and remain today.
We have gained nothing on your expense. You simply lost some of your ill received gains. Big difference between the two. Since 1963 the Cyprus government is elected democratically by the majority of the population, just like it should be in democratic countries. And today the TCs are free to participate in the elections as well, which means we have a system that is more fair, more legitimate and more democratic than it has ever been.
The desire for enosis amongst the general GC community may well be nigh on dead today. What is NOT dead today is the continued belief that GC alone acting not as Cypriots but as Greeks living in Cyprus and in the pursuit not of Cypriot goals but in the pursuit of Greek goals have the RIGHT to impose such a Greek will on those in Cyprus who are not Greek and with no regard for those non Greek Cypriots and without them having any rioghts themselves as Cypriots who are NOT greek. It is a belief born of a world view that says Cyprus IS Greek and anything in it that is not Greek is 'invalid'. That continues to be a problem today.
Any Cypriot is free to define himself as he wants. The majority of Cypriots define themselves as Greek, and this was the case for 1000s of years, long before you choose to come to this island and become a minority among Christian/Greek population. Just because you are racist and you can not accept us for what we are, this doesn't give you the right to ethnically cleanse us and steal our lands.
Anyway the above was a moment of weakness. I already know what your replies will be Piratis. Such discussions here can achieve nothing of any material use. I WILL be stronger in the future and resist such pointless expenditure of effort, reserving it for things than have a least some realistic chance of making things in CYprus better and not worse.
By "better" you of course mean better for you with more ill received gains on our expense. Basically you want us to sign yet another agreement which will be better for you and worst for us than the 1960 ones. It will never happen, so stop wasting your time.
