I must resist posting - I must resist posting - oh sod it.
Piratis wrote: I have shown time and again that the demand for enosis was a 100% legitimate one and that our struggle was turned against the colonialists, not against you.
The demand for enosis was a legitimate demand from Greeks that lived in Cyprus. It was not and is not a legitimate demand of a single unitary Cypriot people of a single unitary Cypriot nation for it says there is no such thing as a Cypriot people, just a geographical place called Cyprus that has a lot of Greeks on it and some other people who are not Greek. By saying we are Greek and part of the Greek people and nation you by definition said TC who were not Greek were part of some other people and thus had seperate rights as a people that was not Greek. The illegitimate part of Enosis was the claim that it was and is the expression of the will of a single unitary people called Cypriots. You can not both say we are not Cypriots as a people but a part of the Greek people, but we say this in the name of a Cypriot people we deny exists, yet this is what it was necessary for you to say to try and 'legitimise' your goal and force you will on cypriots in Cyprus who were not greek, depriving them of their right to self determination.
To say the struggle for enosis was turned only against colonialists is a blatant bald face lie of stunning proportions, even by your own warped standards Piratis. The struggle for enosis was turned against ALL those that represented a block and obstical for the achievement of Enosis. It attacked GC that opposed enosis, it attacked the British because they were a block on achieving enosis and it attacked TC because they were a block on enosis. Those seeking enosis did this through the 50,60 and into the 70s. That is the simple truth of the matter regardless of yopur propaganda.
Piratis wrote:It is your (TMT) actions which caused the inter-communal conflict. Just because you didn't agree with the legitimate rights of the Cypriot people this doesn't mean you had the right to attack innocent people, and demand our annihilation from half of our island.
What caused the intercommunal fighting was the fact that GC in the pursuit of enosis sought to remove any obstacles to that goal by any means including the use of illegal violence where necessary, be they GC, TC or non Cypriot. We did not have a right to block enosis by the use of violence any more than you had a right to try and achieve it through violence yet in the end this iw what both did to varying degress. What we did have is a right as a people, seperate from you as part of the Greek people to determine our own futures as a people. Enosis said you were part of the Greek peoples and in doing so it made us not part of that people and thus some other people to you. That is what enosis did and in doing so gave us a legitimate right as a people, seperate from you.
Piratis wrote:The TCs have no moral or any other excuse for a separate state on land stolen from GCs.
When you chose to define yourselves as part of the Greerk people, you by definition made us people who live in Cyprus and are NOT part of the same people as you and thus part of some 'other' people - complete with the rights of a people seperate from you. Those rights do not include a right to a seperate homeland but they did and do include the right to say that some other people can not impose on us a future for us and our country which we do not want and in which we have no effective say at all.
Piratis wrote:They didn't have any moral ground for the disproportionally high powers and privileges that were granted to them by the Imperialists in 1960.
Here we get to the nub of the issue and expose your claim to place 'legality' above all else as the BS that it truely is. The rights granted to the TC community in Cyprus in the 1960 agreements may well have been 'unfair' but the fact is and remains that however unfair they were they were also LEGALLY VALID in EVERY sense of the word. Law and especially international law can be and often is 'unfair' yet it remains LEGALLY VALID. The argument that they are 'invalidated' because they were the result of 'unequal barganning power' of those that were a party to them holds no water legally. It highlights the very essential difference between national law and international law. International law is by definition an expression of the interests of states expressed through bi lateral and multi lateral agreements. Every international agreement between states is the result of 'unequal power' of those signing the agreements but they remain LEGALY VALID none the less for if they were not then every and any international agreement could be challenged on the basis that 'we had less power than the other signatories, therefore our solemen signature on the agreement means nothing'. To then say that because YOU deem these signed agreements as unfair you can without recourse to ANY legal process simply decide that this and that aspect of them are 'invlid' but not other aspects that suit your needs and enforce this unilateral decision using violence just shows how much you REALLY respect law and legality, national and international.
There was and is no LEGAL way to remove the, possibly unfair but totaly LEGAL, rights granted to the TC community in the 60's agreements without the TC communities consent. This is why GC leaderships have never challenged these legal rights of the TC community in any international court of law but instead drew up a plan for their illegal removal using deception, subversion and as necessary ethnic violence.
Piratis wrote:Both are ill received gains, which the TCs got by collaborating with foreign Imperialists. The TCs help the foreign Imperialists serve their interests in Cyprus, and in return the foreign Imperialist grand to the TCs gains on our expense. None of this is moral.
This idea that we coluded with imperial powers to thwart you is also BS in the sense that you did exactly the same and to much greater reward in the end. It was YOU that sought to internationalise the problem in the first place, taking the cyprus problem to the UN in the 50's. Whilst you failed to get what you hoped to get in the 60's agreements through the use of collaboration with imperial powers and the exploiting of their self interest, you subsequently got massive gains, despite all morality and legality, at the expense of the TC community from foreign imperialist powers persuing their own self interest in 1964 with the UN decleration. The imperalist powers at that time cared only for heading off direct conflict between the NATO allies of Greece and Turkey. The easiest means for those powers to meet THEIR self interest was to place UN troops in Cyprus and the only way to do this was to accept the 'legitimacy' of an all GC run government in Cyprus.
Thus the biggest 'gain' the GC community gained over the TC community in Cyprus was the result of the GC helping foreign imperialist powers to serve their own self interests despite all legality and in return being granted 'legitimacy' at the expense of TC community. None of this was moral, but as it was to your advantage none of it needs understanding or scrutiny.
Piratis wrote:What the TCs have right for is to be equal Cypriot citizens, with the 100% of their human and democratic rights.
No Piratis, what we LEGALLY have a right to as a community in Cyprus is what is defined in the LEGALY VALID 1960's agreements. If you have those rights removed by some sort of international LEGAL process then fine I will accept that they are not any more LEGALLY valid. However if you simply declare unilateraly that those LEGAL rights are 'unfair' to you and thus you can arbitarily remove them at will and without any legal process then I will not accept such a claim. That you subsequently managed to exploit the self interest of foreign imperial powers to first tacitly and then explicity recognise an all GC run government in Cyprus as 'legitimate', despite its planned illegal use of ethinc violence against the TC community to remove those LEGAL rights does not change the fact that our RIGHTS as a COMMUNITY are LEGALY defined in LEAGLLY VALID international agreements.
Piratis wrote:If the TCs continue to dream that they are the winners, then in reality they will continue to be the biggest losers. Only when they will realize that they can not gain on our expense we will be able to find a solution. If they insist on having gains on our expense, then we will lose, but they will lose even more.
Whilst you continue to dream that you can simply get away with the illegal removal of the TC communities valid legal rights as a community and without consequence then you and us will continue to be loosers and their will be no winners. Only when you realise that you have ALREADY gained at our expesne when you sucsessfully manipulated the self interests of foreign imperialists powers to gain 'recognition' at our expense, despite legality and as a result of your use of illegal ethinc violence against us will we have a chance of finding a solution. If you insit that everything YOU gained at our expense by the use of illegal ethic violence against us and the sucsessful exploitation of the self iterest of foreign imperalist powers to your favour, is yours to keep but everything you lost via the same means must be returned then we will lose and you will lose. This is where we have been since 1964 and remain today.
The desire for enosis amongst the general GC community may well be nigh on dead today. What is NOT dead today is the continued belief that GC alone acting not as Cypriots but as Greeks living in Cyprus and in the pursuit not of Cypriot goals but in the pursuit of Greek goals have the RIGHT to impose such a Greek will on those in Cyprus who are not Greek and with no regard for those non Greek Cypriots and without them having any rioghts themselves as Cypriots who are NOT greek. It is a belief born of a world view that says Cyprus IS Greek and anything in it that is not Greek is 'invalid'. That continues to be a problem today.
Anyway the above was a moment of weakness. I already know what your replies will be Piratis. Such discussions here can achieve nothing of any material use. I WILL be stronger in the future and resist such pointless expenditure of effort, reserving it for things than have a least some realistic chance of making things in CYprus better and not worse.
