Cyprus-Forum.com

[denizaksulu]

Kicks old boy, try this one for size. How can you work out where you are going to, if you don't know where you have come from? You can ignore the past or learn from it. Take your pick.

YFred, no one is asking anyone to forget the past. It is an impossible task to do even if one wanted to. Only when one is dead they can "forget" the past.. All I'm saying is, don't be stuck in it because it has no future. It only serve the propagandists for partition, and even that has not worked. They have only prevented the TCs to develop into an “honest society” from the “corrupted society” they have been forced to become in the hands of the Fascist NeoPartitionist today, and will continue worsen as long as these people have a strangle hold on the TCs by preventing them to move into the 21st century Europe where Democracy, Human Rights, International Laws and EU Principles have become a cohesive ingredients that has kept the peace and the development of individual country’s economy and society to become strong..!

Tell me something, YFred, when you drive your car, do you drive by looking ahead most of the time or do you only look in the rear-view mirror to know as to where you have been. Of course you look in front of you with an occasional glance into the rear-view mirror, but your 99.9% concentration is looking what’s ahead and not what you have already past.!

In London, you do both. In fact its drummed into you before the test. You have to be aware of what is behind you at all times.

Do you know where you have come from and where you are going to. What have you learn from your past regarding the roc.

After harbouring hundreds of criminals for decades in the roc, are you not even embarrassed about your political position?

Yfred; please put a smile on my face and say the north is criminal free.

Deniz, of course it is not. But it is also not recognised as the official government either. The roc is. How many other countries do you know that are democratic and allow known murderers to roam the streets free for decades. Now you put a smile to my face and say one.

Thats gonna be difficult. The north of Cyprus!! or are you excluding that.?

The UK to begin with.

North Cyprus and roc is given, but UK? Known mass murderers running around free in UK really Deniz. We are talking this universe I hope.

Yfred; in your question you did not ask for mass murderers. Stop changing the goalposts..please

Bush and his bitch, Tony Blair. .

No, that is changing the subject. We are talking about mass or ordinary murderers known to the Attorney General and no action taken against them. Ministers referring to them as the untouchables. You know exactly what I mean and are trying to cloud the issue.

I was not deliberately clouding the issues. Once I answer, the variables change. You are difficult to satisfy.

It's not that dificult. Find me a democratic country that has done the same as roc for the past 40 years. Took steps to destroy the republic and enosise it with greece and then protected the murderers.

Well, there is this parallel universe I know.............

[Oracle]

... Find me a democratic country that has done the same as roc for the past 40 years. Took steps to destroy the republic and enosise it with greece and then protected the murderers.

Firstly, you'll have to prove such a thing was even attempted by the RoC in real life and not just in your imagination! And secondly, you'll have to share with us who these "protected murderers" were and if you have any proof which could have helped to put them away.

Because so far, we have ample evidence of your criminals still running your affairs and you are reluctant to put any of them away ...

[Pyrpolizer]

Top class discussion here between Kikapu and Birkibrisli.
Excellent points from two different angles of view.

The only thing I would like to add is that every Cypriot is a different personality. Some people see the wrong doings of the other side only, understand their own suffering only, don’t care and don’t want to hear or understand anything that concerns the other side. Some people are just Turk or Greek haters. Their own side are Angels the other side are all Evil.
Some other people can extend their understanding and empathy to the other side. And some others chose to side with what their own side calls the "enemy". Expecting the majority of the people to develop empathy for the other community as a necessary pre-requisite for a solution like my friend Bir said, is a noble expectation but is against human nature.
My friend kikapu said this can only happen after a fair solution, but I don’t think that will happen either,even if the solution is fair for all. The percentages may increase, but the majority will still not have any empathy for the past sufferings for the other community.Simply because they never had first hand experience.
What I think will happen is that the majority from both sides will put the past behind, and start building bridges, empathy and understanding from there on.

That much for human nature. Expecting too much from the people will just make you crazy.
On the other hand here we have the concept of what the majority of the people think or want at a given time.
Imo anyone who will try to discover a way to make the majority think in a certain way will just end up crazy again. These things are completely uncontrollable. They change with the wind. Once upon a time 96% of the GCs wanted Enosis. Slowly slowly that changed. And it did not change because of the Turkish invasion it changed long before that when the Gcs discovered they can do much better economically than Greece. Money is honey you know…
Bir said VP represents the majority of TCs because the majority of them today want partition. Well so be it, however the majority of TCs in 2003-4 wanted unification no matter what.Imo if Christofias and Talat come to an agreement before April that will get at least 80% of the TC and GC vote. So where does that put VP? (to be honest I think VP will then be in that 80% forgetting about her partitionist friends)

Coming to the essense of my friends’ discussion which as I understood has to do with the red lines of each community: Imo each side has to take reasonable risks if a solution would ever be reached. Surely a confederation is not going to be accepted by GCs. Imo the TCs must take the reasonable risk of a strong Federation as exists in other countries. The risk here is that maybe the GCs will return en masse and spoil the very concept of bizonality and slowly slowly absorb the TCs. It’s an risk I know, but a reasonable one because the chance of this ever happening is very low.Very few GCs will ever chose to go back living lonely among TCs. Perhaps the risk taken by the TCs could be countered with another risk by the GCs by accepting quotas. The reasonable element in this risk for the GCs is that most propably the quota will never be reached.

Same goes for Turkey’s guarantees. It seems these are absolutely necessary for the TCs feeling of safety. If me as a GC would know those guarantees are not going to be used unilaterally to start a new war, and their mandate was within Nato, or together with some EU force, I could take the risk of accepting them for a limited period.(Certainly not for ever and certainly not until Turkey joins the EU). Countering the risk taken by the GCs, the TCs should also take the risk of the Turkish Guarantees not be purely Turkish but with some other accepted military power.

I am really incapable of understanding the fears of the TCs joining the GCs in a United Federal Cyprus in a strong federation. If the situation was the reverse and the TCs were in the EU already, with higher standard of living, and much better economy, me as a GC would risk my joining them without second thought, given the fact they already accepted my ruling the internal affairs of my Fed state, and the political equality of the Fed parts. I believe this risk has already been accepted by the TCs, and that those who now prefer partition are just skeptics, waiting to see if the final agreement is worthy enough.

[YFred]

Kicks old boy, try this one for size. How can you work out where you are going to, if you don't know where you have come from? You can ignore the past or learn from it. Take your pick.

YFred, no one is asking anyone to forget the past. It is an impossible task to do even if one wanted to. Only when one is dead they can "forget" the past.. All I'm saying is, don't be stuck in it because it has no future. It only serve the propagandists for partition, and even that has not worked. They have only prevented the TCs to develop into an “honest society” from the “corrupted society” they have been forced to become in the hands of the Fascist NeoPartitionist today, and will continue worsen as long as these people have a strangle hold on the TCs by preventing them to move into the 21st century Europe where Democracy, Human Rights, International Laws and EU Principles have become a cohesive ingredients that has kept the peace and the development of individual country’s economy and society to become strong..!

Tell me something, YFred, when you drive your car, do you drive by looking ahead most of the time or do you only look in the rear-view mirror to know as to where you have been. Of course you look in front of you with an occasional glance into the rear-view mirror, but your 99.9% concentration is looking what’s ahead and not what you have already past.!

In London, you do both. In fact its drummed into you before the test. You have to be aware of what is behind you at all times.

Do you know where you have come from and where you are going to. What have you learn from your past regarding the roc.

After harbouring hundreds of criminals for decades in the roc, are you not even embarrassed about your political position?

Yfred; please put a smile on my face and say the north is criminal free.

Deniz, of course it is not. But it is also not recognised as the official government either. The roc is. How many other countries do you know that are democratic and allow known murderers to roam the streets free for decades. Now you put a smile to my face and say one.

Thats gonna be difficult. The north of Cyprus!! or are you excluding that.?

The UK to begin with.

North Cyprus and roc is given, but UK? Known mass murderers running around free in UK really Deniz. We are talking this universe I hope.

Yfred; in your question you did not ask for mass murderers. Stop changing the goalposts..please

Bush and his bitch, Tony Blair. .

No, that is changing the subject. We are talking about mass or ordinary murderers known to the Attorney General and no action taken against them. Ministers referring to them as the untouchables. You know exactly what I mean and are trying to cloud the issue.

I was not deliberately clouding the issues. Once I answer, the variables change. You are difficult to satisfy.

It's not that dificult. Find me a democratic country that has done the same as roc for the past 40 years. Took steps to destroy the republic and enosise it with greece and then protected the murderers.

Well, there is this parallel universe I know.............

Now be very careful, because you are dangerously close to the Oracle Universe, the most acidic and Alkaline environment at the same time universe ever. I know it's an anomaly but there you go.

[YFred]

... Find me a democratic country that has done the same as roc for the past 40 years. Took steps to destroy the republic and enosise it with greece and then protected the murderers.

Firstly, you'll have to prove such a thing was even attempted by the RoC in real life and not just in your imagination! And secondly, you'll have to share with us who these "protected murderers" were and if you have any proof which could have helped to put them away.

Because so far, we have ample evidence of your criminals still running your affairs and you are reluctant to put any of them away ...

Oracle dear, shall we start with Grivas, Samson, Makarios, Papadobullos, Clerides, Yorgadjis ........Just follow the murder teams they were leading and you will get to the living ones. How many do you want?
Enjoy. The roc democracy will go down in history as being the most crappy diabolical democracy ever.
I am allowed to say that on account that I am a citizen of the blasted thing.
PS a friend of mine went to see Yorgadjis when he was alive to ask about his missing father. Yorgadjis asked him into the office and asked for his father's name and than replied we did kill him, TMT did.
That is an admision of murder. What he was saying was that he was aware of all the killings, including the TMT.
Shove that in your Xmass stocking next year, dearest.

[Oracle]

... Find me a democratic country that has done the same as roc for the past 40 years. Took steps to destroy the republic and enosise it with greece and then protected the murderers.

Firstly, you'll have to prove such a thing was even attempted by the RoC in real life and not just in your imagination! And secondly, you'll have to share with us who these "protected murderers" were and if you have any proof which could have helped to put them away.

Because so far, we have ample evidence of your criminals still running your affairs and you are reluctant to put any of them away ...

Oracle dear, shall we start with Grivas, Samson, Makarios, Papadobullos, Clerides, Yorgadjis ........Just follow the murder teams they were leading and you will get to the living ones. How many do you want?

So, where is the evidence for all those being murderers who were "protected" (outside of your prejudiced imagination)?

The roc democracy will go down in history as being the most crappy diabolical democracy ever.
I am allowed to say that on account that I am a citizen of the blasted thing.

If you're just "saying it" that is your prerogative. But again without evidence, it's just your opinion ... again!

Perhaps if Makarios had been allowed to improve it ......

[YFred]

... Find me a democratic country that has done the same as roc for the past 40 years. Took steps to destroy the republic and enosise it with greece and then protected the murderers.

Firstly, you'll have to prove such a thing was even attempted by the RoC in real life and not just in your imagination! And secondly, you'll have to share with us who these "protected murderers" were and if you have any proof which could have helped to put them away.

Because so far, we have ample evidence of your criminals still running your affairs and you are reluctant to put any of them away ...

Oracle dear, shall we start with Grivas, Samson, Makarios, Papadobullos, Clerides, Yorgadjis ........Just follow the murder teams they were leading and you will get to the living ones. How many do you want?

So, where is the evidence for all those being murderers who were "protected" (outside of your prejudiced imagination)?

The roc democracy will go down in history as being the most crappy diabolical democracy ever.
I am allowed to say that on account that I am a citizen of the blasted thing.

If you're just "saying it" that is your prerogative. But again without evidence, it's just your opinion ... again!

Perhaps if Makarios had been allowed to improve it ......

Don't worry, they have just started looking into Murataga, Atlilar and Sandallilar murders. It's only 36 years later, but that's alright. Better late then never.
Have they just realised that those murders were carried out by GCs.
Why have they just started to investigate. Please explain it to us so we can understand it better. Or is it going to serve the no vote? Why oh why oh why, dearest.

[Kikapu]

Top class discussion here between Kikapu and Birkibrisli.
Excellent points from two different angles of view.

The only thing I would like to add is that every Cypriot is a different personality. Some people see the wrong doings of the other side only, understand their own suffering only, don’t care and don’t want to hear or understand anything that concerns the other side. Some people are just Turk or Greek haters. Their own side are Angels the other side are all Evil.
Some other people can extend their understanding and empathy to the other side. And some others chose to side with what their own side calls the "enemy". Expecting the majority of the people to develop empathy for the other community as a necessary pre-requisite for a solution like my friend Bir said, is a noble expectation but is against human nature.
My friend kikapu said this can only happen after a fair solution, but I don’t think that will happen either,even if the solution is fair for all. The percentages may increase, but the majority will still not have any empathy for the past sufferings for the other community.Simply because they never had first hand experience.
What I think will happen is that the majority from both sides will put the past behind, and start building bridges, empathy and understanding from there on.

That much for human nature. Expecting too much from the people will just make you crazy.
On the other hand here we have the concept of what the majority of the people think or want at a given time.
Imo anyone who will try to discover a way to make the majority think in a certain way will just end up crazy again. These things are completely uncontrollable. They change with the wind. Once upon a time 96% of the GCs wanted Enosis. Slowly slowly that changed. And it did not change because of the Turkish invasion it changed long before that when the Gcs discovered they can do much better economically than Greece. Money is honey you know…
Bir said VP represents the majority of TCs because the majority of them today want partition. Well so be it, however the majority of TCs in 2003-4 wanted unification no matter what.Imo if Christofias and Talat come to an agreement before April that will get at least 80% of the TC and GC vote. So where does that put VP? (to be honest I think VP will then be in that 80% forgetting about her partitionist friends)

Coming to the essense of my friends’ discussion which as I understood has to do with the red lines of each community: Imo each side has to take reasonable risks if a solution would ever be reached. Surely a confederation is not going to be accepted by GCs. Imo the TCs must take the reasonable risk of a strong Federation as exists in other countries. The risk here is that maybe the GCs will return en masse and spoil the very concept of bizonality and slowly slowly absorb the TCs. It’s an risk I know, but a reasonable one because the chance of this ever happening is very low.Very few GCs will ever chose to go back living lonely among TCs. Perhaps the risk taken by the TCs could be countered with another risk by the GCs by accepting quotas. The reasonable element in this risk for the GCs is that most propably the quota will never be reached.

Same goes for Turkey’s guarantees. It seems these are absolutely necessary for the TCs feeling of safety. If me as a GC would know those guarantees are not going to be used unilaterally to start a new war, and their mandate was within Nato, or together with some EU force, I could take the risk of accepting them for a limited period.(Certainly not for ever and certainly not until Turkey joins the EU). Countering the risk taken by the GCs, the TCs should also take the risk of the Turkish Guarantees not be purely Turkish but with some other accepted military power.

I am really incapable of understanding the fears of the TCs joining the GCs in a United Federal Cyprus in a strong federation. If the situation was the reverse and the TCs were in the EU already, with higher standard of living, and much better economy, me as a GC would risk my joining them without second thought, given the fact they already accepted my ruling the internal affairs of my Fed state, and the political equality of the Fed parts. I believe this risk has already been accepted by the TCs, and that those who now prefer partition are just skeptics, waiting to see if the final agreement is worthy enough.

Pyro, you have made a very balanced post. It was great reading it. While you were away, I did make another settlement plan which covered all of your points and more in the initial posting and the following 28 pages. Give it a read when you get a chance. There is an updated version with the "5 Year plan" added to the original post later (there's one on page 26) as well as a quota system where the population of the GCs in the north will only grow at the same rate as the TCs, which will ensure that the TCs will retain the majority.

Kikapu's "BBF" Power Sharing Plan.!

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=21685

[denizaksulu]

Top class discussion here between Kikapu and Birkibrisli.
Excellent points from two different angles of view.

The only thing I would like to add is that every Cypriot is a different personality. Some people see the wrong doings of the other side only, understand their own suffering only, don’t care and don’t want to hear or understand anything that concerns the other side. Some people are just Turk or Greek haters. Their own side are Angels the other side are all Evil.
Some other people can extend their understanding and empathy to the other side. And some others chose to side with what their own side calls the "enemy". Expecting the majority of the people to develop empathy for the other community as a necessary pre-requisite for a solution like my friend Bir said, is a noble expectation but is against human nature.
My friend kikapu said this can only happen after a fair solution, but I don’t think that will happen either,even if the solution is fair for all. The percentages may increase, but the majority will still not have any empathy for the past sufferings for the other community.Simply because they never had first hand experience.
What I think will happen is that the majority from both sides will put the past behind, and start building bridges, empathy and understanding from there on.

That much for human nature. Expecting too much from the people will just make you crazy.
On the other hand here we have the concept of what the majority of the people think or want at a given time.
Imo anyone who will try to discover a way to make the majority think in a certain way will just end up crazy again. These things are completely uncontrollable. They change with the wind. Once upon a time 96% of the GCs wanted Enosis. Slowly slowly that changed. And it did not change because of the Turkish invasion it changed long before that when the Gcs discovered they can do much better economically than Greece. Money is honey you know…
Bir said VP represents the majority of TCs because the majority of them today want partition. Well so be it, however the majority of TCs in 2003-4 wanted unification no matter what.Imo if Christofias and Talat come to an agreement before April that will get at least 80% of the TC and GC vote. So where does that put VP? (to be honest I think VP will then be in that 80% forgetting about her partitionist friends)

Coming to the essense of my friends’ discussion which as I understood has to do with the red lines of each community: Imo each side has to take reasonable risks if a solution would ever be reached. Surely a confederation is not going to be accepted by GCs. Imo the TCs must take the reasonable risk of a strong Federation as exists in other countries. The risk here is that maybe the GCs will return en masse and spoil the very concept of bizonality and slowly slowly absorb the TCs. It’s an risk I know, but a reasonable one because the chance of this ever happening is very low.Very few GCs will ever chose to go back living lonely among TCs. Perhaps the risk taken by the TCs could be countered with another risk by the GCs by accepting quotas. The reasonable element in this risk for the GCs is that most propably the quota will never be reached.

Same goes for Turkey’s guarantees. It seems these are absolutely necessary for the TCs feeling of safety. If me as a GC would know those guarantees are not going to be used unilaterally to start a new war, and their mandate was within Nato, or together with some EU force, I could take the risk of accepting them for a limited period.(Certainly not for ever and certainly not until Turkey joins the EU). Countering the risk taken by the GCs, the TCs should also take the risk of the Turkish Guarantees not be purely Turkish but with some other accepted military power.

I am really incapable of understanding the fears of the TCs joining the GCs in a United Federal Cyprus in a strong federation. If the situation was the reverse and the TCs were in the EU already, with higher standard of living, and much better economy, me as a GC would risk my joining them without second thought, given the fact they already accepted my ruling the internal affairs of my Fed state, and the political equality of the Fed parts. I believe this risk has already been accepted by the TCs, and that those who now prefer partition are just skeptics, waiting to see if the final agreement is worthy enough.

Fair points raised here Pyro; and btw, welcome back to the forum. Nice to see you again.

[denizaksulu]

Kicks old boy, try this one for size. How can you work out where you are going to, if you don't know where you have come from? You can ignore the past or learn from it. Take your pick.

YFred, no one is asking anyone to forget the past. It is an impossible task to do even if one wanted to. Only when one is dead they can "forget" the past.. All I'm saying is, don't be stuck in it because it has no future. It only serve the propagandists for partition, and even that has not worked. They have only prevented the TCs to develop into an “honest society” from the “corrupted society” they have been forced to become in the hands of the Fascist NeoPartitionist today, and will continue worsen as long as these people have a strangle hold on the TCs by preventing them to move into the 21st century Europe where Democracy, Human Rights, International Laws and EU Principles have become a cohesive ingredients that has kept the peace and the development of individual country’s economy and society to become strong..!

Tell me something, YFred, when you drive your car, do you drive by looking ahead most of the time or do you only look in the rear-view mirror to know as to where you have been. Of course you look in front of you with an occasional glance into the rear-view mirror, but your 99.9% concentration is looking what’s ahead and not what you have already past.!

In London, you do both. In fact its drummed into you before the test. You have to be aware of what is behind you at all times.

Do you know where you have come from and where you are going to. What have you learn from your past regarding the roc.

After harbouring hundreds of criminals for decades in the roc, are you not even embarrassed about your political position?

Yfred; please put a smile on my face and say the north is criminal free.

Deniz, of course it is not. But it is also not recognised as the official government either. The roc is. How many other countries do you know that are democratic and allow known murderers to roam the streets free for decades. Now you put a smile to my face and say one.

Thats gonna be difficult. The north of Cyprus!! or are you excluding that.?

The UK to begin with.

North Cyprus and roc is given, but UK? Known mass murderers running around free in UK really Deniz. We are talking this universe I hope.

Yfred; in your question you did not ask for mass murderers. Stop changing the goalposts..please

Bush and his bitch, Tony Blair. .

No, that is changing the subject. We are talking about mass or ordinary murderers known to the Attorney General and no action taken against them. Ministers referring to them as the untouchables. You know exactly what I mean and are trying to cloud the issue.

I was not deliberately clouding the issues. Once I answer, the variables change. You are difficult to satisfy.

It's not that dificult. Find me a democratic country that has done the same as roc for the past 40 years. Took steps to destroy the republic and enosise it with greece and then protected the murderers.

Well, there is this parallel universe I know.............

Now be very careful, because you are dangerously close to the Oracle Universe, the most acidic and Alkaline environment at the same time universe ever. I know it's an anomaly but there you go.

Well, lets stick to our Universe then. You cant compare apples and oranges. They both have there fructose and citric acid perhaps, but the apples will have the acetaldehydes and the oranges their terpenes.
You must realise that Cyprus is UNIQUE. Its people are unique. Its history a maelstrom. Let us benefit from this uniqueness. It is possible.