Cyprus-Forum.com

[samarkeolog]

Cypriot Turks (Kibris Turkleri) is a term used interchangeably with Turkish Cypriots for as long as I remember,which goes back 50 years now....Soyer being my vintage is probably just using it as such...Recently I am hearing "Turks of Cyprus" which although it also translates as Kibris Turkleri has an entirely different political meaning...One certainly needs to be cautious..Turks of Cyprus removes all distinction between True TCs and the settlers...Its use must not be tolerated...

Yeah, it's quite common generally, isn't it? Things that would be written "adjective noun [Kibrisli kahve (Cypriot coffee)]" in English and Greek are often written "noun (genitive) noun [Kibris kahvesi (coffee of Cyprus)]" in Turkish. It doesn't translate back into English well, but it does mean the same thing. (I agree it can be a problem in Turkish, too, like it is here.)

[Oracle]

Bother, instead of wasting your time having meaningless and dead-end dialogues with someone like Oracle

OK Mr Trouble-Shooter ... show me how far you get with solving anything with BirKibrisli (or anybody else for that matter!).

[samarkeolog]

Most Cypriots have trouble remembering that the TCs were once a vibrant, real part of Cyprus-proper. How will the general population distinguish between these two (Turks & TCs) virtually indiscernible "groups" of people now?....

indisputably, this present situation culminating in the "extinction" of TCs by their own brothers... the Turks, is something that is between yourselves. Why should we intervene and risk getting more bloodshed for our racially segregated people?....

So, I don't think we should be sidetracked by a "civil" matter between Turkish groups, actually!

Besides if the Turks are destroying the TCs; "ethnic genocide" you say ..... I think we need a new term, since you are one and the same ethnicity with the Turks.

Well, are they Turkish Cypriots, like you said first, or Turks in Cyprus, like you said second? If they're Turkish Cypriots, it is not 'a "civil" matter between Turkish groups'. If you believe they are "Turks in Cyprus", think what kind of people you're agreeing with...

[Oracle]

Most Cypriots have trouble remembering that the TCs were once a vibrant, real part of Cyprus-proper. How will the general population distinguish between these two (Turks & TCs) virtually indiscernible "groups" of people now?....

indisputably, this present situation culminating in the "extinction" of TCs by their own brothers... the Turks, is something that is between yourselves. Why should we intervene and risk getting more bloodshed for our racially segregated people?....

So, I don't think we should be sidetracked by a "civil" matter between Turkish groups, actually!

Besides if the Turks are destroying the TCs; "ethnic genocide" you say ..... I think we need a new term, since you are one and the same ethnicity with the Turks.

Well, are they Turkish Cypriots, like you said first, or Turks in Cyprus, like you said second? If they're Turkish Cypriots, it is not 'a "civil" matter between Turkish groups'. If you believe they are "Turks in Cyprus", think what kind of people you're agreeing with...

I didn't call them "Turks in Cyprus" ... that appears to be the branded new title...

Ethnically they are just Turks, nationally some were / are TCs and some are still Turkish nationals (presently illegally occupying Cyprus).

If they wish to annihilate each other (as BirKibrisli suggested the Turks were doing to the TCs) then it is between them as far as I am concerned aside from any humanitarian action which that might require. But when I challenged Bir on that ... he did a U-turn and decided Turkey was not "ethnically cleansing" the TCs after all ....

[samarkeolog]

You said they were 'two (Turks & TCs) virtually indiscernible "groups" of people', that Turkish Cypriots were 'one and the same ethnicity with the Turks' and you said it was 'a "civil" matter between Turkish groups, actually!' That defines the idea of Turkish Cypriots as "Turks in Cyprus", rather than Turkish-speaking, (historically/culturally) Muslim Cypriots.

'Ethnically they are just Turks' isn't accurate, either. The Muslim Cypriot community became defined as Turkish/Turkish Cypriot, and the Orthodox Christian community became defined as Greek/Greek Cypriot. (Think of the way Turkish-speaking Orthodox Christians were defined as Greek and Greek-speaking Muslims were defined as Turkish in the Greek-Turkish population exchange.)

So, even if we only talk in ethnic terms (which are pretty meaningless), a lot of different "ethnic groups" that shared Islam - including converted members of "Christian" ethnic groups - would have "become" Turkish Cypriot. Equally, a lot of different ethnic groups that shared Orthodoxy - including converted members of "Muslim" ethnic groups - would have "become" Greek Cypriot.

[Oracle]

You said they were 'two (Turks & TCs) virtually indiscernible "groups" of people', that Turkish Cypriots were 'one and the same ethnicity with the Turks' and you said it was 'a "civil" matter between Turkish groups, actually!' That defines the idea of Turkish Cypriots as "Turks in Cyprus", rather than Turkish-speaking, (historically/culturally) Muslim Cypriots.

'Ethnically they are just Turks' isn't accurate, either. The Muslim Cypriot community became defined as Turkish/Turkish Cypriot, and the Orthodox Christian community became defined as Greek/Greek Cypriot. (Think of the way Turkish-speaking Orthodox Christians were defined as Greek and Greek-speaking Muslims were defined as Turkish in the Greek-Turkish population exchange.)

So, even if we only talk in ethnic terms (which are pretty meaningless), a lot of different "ethnic groups" that shared Islam - including converted members of "Christian" ethnic groups - would have "become" Turkish Cypriot. Equally, a lot of different ethnic groups that shared Orthodoxy - including converted members of "Muslim" ethnic groups - would have "become" Greek Cypriot.

Well up until 1923, they called themselves Ottomans, then Turkish. According to halil, he didn't consider himself as TC until 1960 ... so as I said it is up to individuals to decide for themselves, within acceptable guidelines.

But what is not acceptable is the politicisation as observed here with the reference to Turks (of Cyprus), which could (cryptically) include the Anatolian settlers. It raises the possibility that it is being used now to try and gain equal rights of citizenship for those illegal Turkish settlers .... That is the main, and relevant, concern.

[samarkeolog]

But what is not acceptable is the politicisation as observed here with the reference to Turks (of Cyprus), which could (cryptically) include the Anatolian settlers. It raises the possibility that it is being used now to try and gain equal rights of citizenship for those illegal Turkish settlers .... That is the main, and relevant, concern.

Yeah, I agree - but he could have meant Turkish Cypriot, and said Turkish Cypriot, because Kibris Turkleri can be a grammatically correct way of saying Turkish Cypriots in Turkish (and Yunan and Turk grammatically correct shorthands for Greek (Cypriot) and Turk(ish Cypriot)). We just have to be careful not to criticise him for saying something he isn't saying, that's all.

[Oracle]

But what is not acceptable is the politicisation as observed here with the reference to Turks (of Cyprus), which could (cryptically) include the Anatolian settlers. It raises the possibility that it is being used now to try and gain equal rights of citizenship for those illegal Turkish settlers .... That is the main, and relevant, concern.

Yeah, I agree - but he could have meant Turkish Cypriot, and said Turkish Cypriot, because Kibris Turkleri can be a grammatically correct way of saying Turkish Cypriots in Turkish (and Yunan and Turk grammatically correct shorthands for Greek (Cypriot) and Turk(ish Cypriot)). We just have to be careful not to criticise him for saying something he isn't saying, that's all.

How could he have meant TCs? In the context of the use of the term .... "don't want to give Turks equal rights" .... why would he accuse us of not giving the TCs equal rights? That has not even come up for question. It stands to reason, that the only Turks he could have been referring to which do not deserve equal rights (for citizenship in Cyprus, or one or both states he was referring to) ... are Turks from Anatolia brought over illegally to colonise. So I still think he is trying to envelop TCs and Turks as one group, so that the illegal settlers (Turks) are not treated separately. In other words, he will erase the use of "TC".

[BirKibrisli]

I don't think the international community will care if they are TCs or Turks.

Most Cypriots have trouble remembering that the TCs were once a vibrant, real part of Cyprus-proper. How will the general population distinguish between these two (Turks & TCs) virtually indiscernible "groups" of people now? Turkey knows this; and slowly, as it does away with the TC nomenclature and replaces it with "Turks" or "Turks of Cyprus", then there will be nothing to stop the original settlers claiming equality! They are crying for it now, via Soyer!

We need to highlight this crime more, before it achieves momentum as normality.

(All brought on by the TCs I may add ... before Birkibrisli pipes in with his "It's all the fault of the unsympathetic GCs" eulogy .... )

Sure,Oracle....Everything that ever happened in this problem has been the fault of the TCs...They are guilty as hell and they are now paying the ultimate price for it...Loss of identity by ethnic genocide...Enjoy dealing with Turkey and the "New" TCs...all one million of them...

Bother, instead of wasting your time having meaningless and dead-end dialogues with someone like Oracle (or me with someone like VP on the same level,) on the issue of future of the TC community, direct your efforts in talking towards your fellow TCs, because there is very little anyway the GCs can do in this direction.

There is very little the GCs can do, when you have an ELECTED LEADER who says the things he does. How can the TCs expect any help from the GCs, when Talat claims to have said the following to Christofias, in their meeting in Nicosia?

Under the title The Greek Cypriots do not want two separate peoples, Turkish Cypriot daily Halkin Sesi newspaper (03.12.08 ) reports that the Turkish Cypriot leader, Mehmet Ali Talat met yesterday again with President Christofias within the framework of the full-fledged negotiations for reaching a solution to the Cyprus problem. The paper notes that the Turkish Cypriot side did not accept the arguments set forward by President Christofias.

In statements at his office after the negotiations, Mr. Talat said that the Greek Cypriot side does not accept the existence of two peoples on the island because it is afraid of the separation. Mr. Talat added that the Greek Cypriots say that only one people exist in Cyprus because they are afraid of the peoples self-determination right and therefore they reject the discussion of the scientific aspect of the issue. He noted that there was no tension during the meeting yesterday and added that the Greek Cypriot side put forward its arguments and they discussed them.

Mr. Talat reiterated his view that there are two peoples in Cyprus and that he asked from President Christofias to tell him the language, religion and cultural structure of this people, if there is only one people in Cyprus. He said that he told President Christofias the following: Since there is only one people describe two things which it likes and two things it hates.

http://www.hri.org/news/cyprus/tcpr/200 ... pr.html#01

If your community elected as its leader, someone subscribing to the above ideology, it means that it also subscribes to the same above ideology. In which case, I wonder why all these thousands of TCs -the vast majority I should add, have applied and obtained the RoC passports or IDs, and why do they cross south every day for all the known reasons they do.

Greetings,Brother Kifeas...
As you know and I know very well,Talat is only saying what he is told to say...He is the puppet...The current negotiations are meaningless if we don't realise there can only be one result in the end,one that is the same as the status quo or better for Turkey...Else there will be no agreement...

I think more and more TCs are realising this,and hence the rush for ROC passports etc...The True TCs also know well by now that,as people, they are more like the GCs then the settlers...They realise that after 400 years of common history and geography they are in truth nothing other than Turkish-speaking Cypriots of islamic persuation...But they find themselves in a perilous situation...One one hand they have Turkey telling them they must be better Turks and Muslims,if they deserve to be protected from the evil GCs,and on the other hand they have the GCs telling them they are nothing but trecherous Turks who betrayed their country...They have no other option but throw their hands in the air and say "whatever!"...Most people here refuse to make the slightest effort to understand what EOKA and the demand for Enosis meant for the TCs at the time....Not slightest effort to empathise with the impossible situation they find themselves in...In these circumstances whatever I say to my fellow TCs would fall on deaf ears...I am slowly giving up in desperation...
If people want to insist that Cyprus is a part of the Hellenic world,and Cypriots are primarily Greeks that happen to live in Cyprus,and that TCs are a trecherous minority of Turks,then my whole argument that we are one people, one nation, separated by two artificial factors falls by the wayside...It becomes laughable...That is the reality I am facing here...
If we are one people of Cypriots,then we have to start behaving like one.Dismantling all signs and symbols which signifies allegiance to other foreign nations...The TCs hands are tied on this subject....They do not have the free will to do anything at present...That is not the situation for the GCs...With the new found confidence of EU membership they can begin the journey to real self-determination...That of becoming themselves,Greek-speaking Cypriots of Orthodox persuation...You will find plenty of Turkish-speaking Cypriots who will embrace you as brothers and sisters then...

[askimwos]

I don't think the international community will care if they are TCs or Turks.

Most Cypriots have trouble remembering that the TCs were once a vibrant, real part of Cyprus-proper. How will the general population distinguish between these two (Turks & TCs) virtually indiscernible "groups" of people now? Turkey knows this; and slowly, as it does away with the TC nomenclature and replaces it with "Turks" or "Turks of Cyprus", then there will be nothing to stop the original settlers claiming equality! They are crying for it now, via Soyer!

We need to highlight this crime more, before it achieves momentum as normality.

(All brought on by the TCs I may add ... before Birkibrisli pipes in with his "It's all the fault of the unsympathetic GCs" eulogy .... )

Sure,Oracle....Everything that ever happened in this problem has been the fault of the TCs...They are guilty as hell and they are now paying the ultimate price for it...Loss of identity by ethnic genocide...Enjoy dealing with Turkey and the "New" TCs...all one million of them...

Bother, instead of wasting your time having meaningless and dead-end dialogues with someone like Oracle (or me with someone like VP on the same level,) on the issue of future of the TC community, direct your efforts in talking towards your fellow TCs, because there is very little anyway the GCs can do in this direction.

There is very little the GCs can do, when you have an ELECTED LEADER who says the things he does. How can the TCs expect any help from the GCs, when Talat claims to have said the following to Christofias, in their meeting in Nicosia?

Under the title The Greek Cypriots do not want two separate peoples, Turkish Cypriot daily Halkin Sesi newspaper (03.12.08 ) reports that the Turkish Cypriot leader, Mehmet Ali Talat met yesterday again with President Christofias within the framework of the full-fledged negotiations for reaching a solution to the Cyprus problem. The paper notes that the Turkish Cypriot side did not accept the arguments set forward by President Christofias.

In statements at his office after the negotiations, Mr. Talat said that the Greek Cypriot side does not accept the existence of two peoples on the island because it is afraid of the separation. Mr. Talat added that the Greek Cypriots say that only one people exist in Cyprus because they are afraid of the peoples self-determination right and therefore they reject the discussion of the scientific aspect of the issue. He noted that there was no tension during the meeting yesterday and added that the Greek Cypriot side put forward its arguments and they discussed them.

Mr. Talat reiterated his view that there are two peoples in Cyprus and that he asked from President Christofias to tell him the language, religion and cultural structure of this people, if there is only one people in Cyprus. He said that he told President Christofias the following: Since there is only one people describe two things which it likes and two things it hates.

http://www.hri.org/news/cyprus/tcpr/200 ... pr.html#01

If your community elected as its leader, someone subscribing to the above ideology, it means that it also subscribes to the same above ideology. In which case, I wonder why all these thousands of TCs -the vast majority I should add, have applied and obtained the RoC passports or IDs, and why do they cross south every day for all the known reasons they do.

Greetings,Brother Kifeas...
As you know and I know very well,Talat is only saying what he is told to say...He is the puppet...The current negotiations are meaningless if we don't realise there can only be one result in the end,one that is the same as the status quo or better for Turkey...Else there will be no agreement...

I think more and more TCs are realising this,and hence the rush for ROC passports etc...The True TCs also know well by now that,as people, they are more like the GCs then the settlers...They realise that after 400 years of common history and geography they are in truth nothing other than Turkish-speaking Cypriots of islamic persuation...But they find themselves in a perilous situation...One one hand they have Turkey telling them they must be better Turks and Muslims,if they deserve to be protected from the evil GCs,and on the other hand they have the GCs telling them they are nothing but trecherous Turks who betrayed their country...They have no other option but throw their hands in the air and say "whatever!"...Most people here refuse to make the slightest effort to understand what EOKA and the demand for Enosis meant for the TCs at the time....Not slightest effort to empathise with the impossible situation they find themselves in...In these circumstances whatever I say to my fellow TCs would fall on deaf ears...I am slowly giving up in desperation...
If people want to insist that Cyprus is a part of the Hellenic world,and Cypriots are primarily Greeks that happen to live in Cyprus,and that TCs are a trecherous minority of Turks,then my whole argument that we are one people, one nation, separated by two artificial factors falls by the wayside...It becomes laughable...That is the reality I am facing here...
If we are one people of Cypriots,then we have to start behaving like one.Dismantling all signs and symbols which signifies allegiance to other foreign nations...The TCs hands are tied on this subject....They do not have the free will to do anything at present...That is not the situation for the GCs...With the new found confidence of EU membership they can begin the journey to real self-determination...That of becoming themselves,Greek-speaking Cypriots of Orthodox persuation...You will find plenty of Turkish-speaking Cypriots who will embrace you as brothers and sisters then...

Birkisirli, you will be surprised at how identical is your ideology with that of president Christofias. You are right to feel let down by the current situation of the Cyprus Problem and you should never give up.
Cyprus needs people like you on both sides of the divide. We all hoped that Talat would have honoured Osker Oskiour's legacy and work with Christofias for a true BBF without outside influence be it from Greece, Turkey, US, UK etc.
People should never lose hope otherwise they are doomed to be "slaves" for their entire life.