Cyprus-Forum.com

[Paphitis]

Would Turkey take the risk of shouldering failure in the current negotiations Tim? If Turkey has gone back to its intransigent past, any advantages gained by accepting the UN brokered solution plan in 2004 will evaporate away. They are not that stupid, I am sure.

That one takes the cake.

You should really listen to yourself.

You are talking about Turkey taking advantage of some perceived advantages that it gained in 2004.

You are truly sick. This ranks up there with you telling us we should accept any solution that other powers are prepared to grant us.

Bananiot, you have no respect for your country or Cypriots. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Tim Drayton]

Would Turkey take the risk of shouldering failure in the current negotiations Tim? If Turkey has gone back to its intransigent past, any advantages gained by accepting the UN brokered solution plan in 2004 will evaporate away. They are not that stupid, I am sure.

These are very complex games played on constantly shifting sands. I can only guess as to what is really happening, but I get the distinct feeling that Turkey is being less compromising on Cyprus now than a couple of years ago. Don't you agree?

[Bananiot]

Just shut it Paphitis, you have no idea what we are talking about.

Tim, it appears that way, but still the question remains. Why?

I think that Talat has hardened his stance so that he can fall back to his Annan Plan position in due course. Christofias's best bet was to reiterate his previous positions, before the start of the negotiations, that we still consider the Annan Plan as the basis for the negotiations and that our side was looking to achieve certain improvements to the plan that could make the GC community accept it in a new referendum. Instead, he rejected the plan outright and sought a new basis for the negotiations. Turkey is justified to behave like this, I think. After all, these are negotiations, not a charity meeting.

[DT.]

Would Turkey take the risk of shouldering failure in the current negotiations Tim? If Turkey has gone back to its intransigent past, any advantages gained by accepting the UN brokered solution plan in 2004 will evaporate away. They are not that stupid, I am sure.

These are very complex games played on constantly shifting sands. I can only guess as to what is really happening, but I get the distinct feeling that Turkey is being less compromising on Cyprus now than a couple of years ago. Don't you agree?

I personally don't see any shift in Turkish policy. Whats new? The confederation demands? The Guarantee demands? The undemocratic voting schemes?

[Tim Drayton]

Would Turkey take the risk of shouldering failure in the current negotiations Tim? If Turkey has gone back to its intransigent past, any advantages gained by accepting the UN brokered solution plan in 2004 will evaporate away. They are not that stupid, I am sure.

These are very complex games played on constantly shifting sands. I can only guess as to what is really happening, but I get the distinct feeling that Turkey is being less compromising on Cyprus now than a couple of years ago. Don't you agree?

I personally don't see any shift in Turkish policy. Whats new? The confederation demands? The Guarantee demands? The undemocratic voting schemes?

I would have thought that removing Denktash from power in itself represented a massive shift.

[DT.]

Off hand, I remember Klerides and Papadopoulos, long before they became Presidents.

These kids here are so brain washed that they think surrender of rights equals negotiations. They have had their private education while the TCs have been suffering under embargoes and isolation but that is not enough for the spoiled little brats. They believe the island is theirs and that Greece has no involvement in all of it. The real world becomes as some what of a strain when they are forced to live in it. Their had better be a ready supply of Prozac in the "RoC"...........

A Londoner telling me, a Cypriot what the realities of Cyprus really are! Give it a break Zan, you're so detached from this place sitting in North London that the least you can do is keep quiet about it.

Any "Cypriots" out there that wish to contribute to the Cyprob better do so with respect. Respect for the Cypriots that know this place inside out and live and breath all its joys and problems on a daily basis.

The dying breath of a man who has no more argument and has to resort to talking crap. Maybe this crap would be interesting if I were living on a remote mountain with no communication with the outside world but I am not. I know what TCs want and that is to be treated fairly. We also know that we will not be treated fairly by you lot so we struggle on. Some moan but still live in the TRNC....Funny that when you say that the "RoC" would welcome them.....

Your leader has two choices dear mate....Give us our rights or agree a split....As the recession bites the Turkish ports will become more important. We are more used to living under difficult conditions...You pampered lot will find it hard......Happy hunting.

Whats on tv tonight Zan, the cricket or Jeremy Clarkson? Cybc 2 has Biz/Emeis a bi-communal programme. I think I'll watch it and then head down to Ledra street. I might even meet up with a few TC friends and have a chat. On my way home I'll catch a glimpse of Pendadaktylos with Pac-man on it to remind me a few things. Must remember to pass by the passport office to pick up my daughters new passport, I hope the TC line isn't too crowded cause they usually spill over to the Rum line. Next week will have to present myself for a routine weekend reserve call at the national guard...

There's absolutely no difference between our lives Zan.

[DT.]

Would Turkey take the risk of shouldering failure in the current negotiations Tim? If Turkey has gone back to its intransigent past, any advantages gained by accepting the UN brokered solution plan in 2004 will evaporate away. They are not that stupid, I am sure.

These are very complex games played on constantly shifting sands. I can only guess as to what is really happening, but I get the distinct feeling that Turkey is being less compromising on Cyprus now than a couple of years ago. Don't you agree?

I personally don't see any shift in Turkish policy. Whats new? The confederation demands? The Guarantee demands? The undemocratic voting schemes?

I would have thought that removing Denktash from power in itself represented a massive shift.

Denktash wasn't a ventriloquist's dummy, he shaped Turkish policy along with the military. Talat does not have such clout in Turkey and simply repeats policy he has had no part in shaping...Thats the difference, the policy is the same.

[Paphitis]

Would Turkey take the risk of shouldering failure in the current negotiations Tim? If Turkey has gone back to its intransigent past, any advantages gained by accepting the UN brokered solution plan in 2004 will evaporate away. They are not that stupid, I am sure.

These are very complex games played on constantly shifting sands. I can only guess as to what is really happening, but I get the distinct feeling that Turkey is being less compromising on Cyprus now than a couple of years ago. Don't you agree?

I personally don't see any shift in Turkish policy. Whats new? The confederation demands? The Guarantee demands? The undemocratic voting schemes?

I would have thought that removing Denktash from power in itself represented a massive shift.

We are just wasting our time.

I would have to agree with DT. Unfortunately there is no shift in Turkey's Cyprus Policy. As you know, it does not matter who is in power in the "trnc". The real puppet masters are the Turkish Generals. And the letter that Talat read out to Christofias was straigth from the donkey's mouth. Christofias should have retreated immediately.

[Kifeas]

That is the easy part Tim. The difficult part is to explain this "change".

There is a theory that the ruling AKP did a deal behind closed doors with the Turkish military establishment/deep state by means of which the threat to close the AKP by judicial means would be removed provided that the old elite could take charge of certain pet projects. It seems to me that on two particular issues - the Kurds and Cyprus - the creative search for new solutions of recent years has been abandoned in favour of the old hard-line approach.

Part of it is due to what you say Tim, which by now seems more than certain. The other part of the reason is the fact that the Turkish side would always try to exploit the fact that the GC side would come to negotiations in good faith and on the basis of already compromised positions (one only needs to look at what Christofias is proposing,) and they in their turn would up come with even more extremist positions than before, in a hope that the international community will draw a mid-point line between the already compromised GC positions and their extreme ones.

This is why they (Talat and turkey) call for time-tables and arbitration by the UN, because they hope they have a better chance, due to Turkey's size and displacement in the world, to influence arbitration towards what I have described above. This is exactly what happened with the Annan plan, whose initial versions were more balanced and tolerable, but then Turkey started throwing its Anglo-American backed influence around, in order for Kofi Annan to have initially attained the right for a final binding arbitration and then to have shifted the final package more towards their extreme positions. This is exactly what they have now in mind, i.e. a repetition of the 2002-2004 scenario of the Annan plan initiative, because they (rightfully) believe that such a path gives them an advantage due to Turkey's size and importance in world affairs, and this is exactly why the GC side (rightfully) refuses to put itself in such a disadvantaged position. They deliberately come up with the most intransigent and extremist positions, so that an agreement between the two sides becomes unable to be reached, and then turn around the world and say that the two sides are unable to solve the problem by themselves therefore others (the American controlled and influenced UN bureaucrats) must offer their final saying.

Unfortunately, the UN secretarial and the UN bureaucrats have proved to us they cannot be trusted to act independedly and on the basis of principles and within the parameters of their own resolutions and international legality, and that they are basically people acting under the influence of the Anglo-Americans which have reasons to want to favor Turkey, in order to have it pacified and always on their side.

Of course, if I was the GC side I would have said the following. “Fine, I am willing to have the UN arbitrate, as the Turks want, and as long as the final offer does not deviate from the parameters specified by the UN Charter, the UN resolutions on Cyprus and the human rights declarations and CoE conventions and ECtHR decisions, I will put it in a referendum and try my best to convince the GC society to approve it. In fact, this is what Papadopoulos and the GC side should have done in NY in January 2004. What are the UN and the Anglo-Americans going to say? No, you should accept any deal, even if it violates any or all of the above! They wouldn’t dare say so!

[Tim Drayton]

Let us not forget that for the hardliners in Turkey, the Annan Plan represented an unacceptable compromise. That the Annan Plan could even be contemplated represented a victory of the moderates over the hard liners.