Cyprus-Forum.com

[Murataga]

"On the other hand, none of the aforementioned documents establish a principle of the evolution of the existing state for the solution of the Cyprus problem."

And equally NO RESOLUTION calls for a dissolution of the Republic of Cyprus, a member of the UN which passed these resolutions. Asking for the dissolution of a state is a huge step, unlikely to have been implicitly understood. If that was the intention why was it not expressly included by Denktash in the high level agreements? Because it was not part of Turkish policy till recently. Denktash is a clefer lawyer and a cunning politician, he would not have left out something he considered vital.

Dissolution of the RoC does not make sense in the context of a Unitary state. It makes plenty of sense if there is an ulterior motive and a longer term plan to dissolve the federation and be left with a TC state which can then claim the whole island.

It is legtitimate according to some people in this forum to seek support for the dissolution of the RoC, but unacceptable to seek allies who reaffirm the RoC's right to exist.

Some moral degenerates expect the GCs who depend on the RoC for their survival to give it up and become something like the TRNC, living off handouts. And that is NOT going to happen.

What is illegitimate and a lie is claiming that the High Level Agreements and U.N. Resolutions seek the solution to be an evolution of the existing state. They do not, period. Claiming that they do is a lie and this is exactly what the GC leadership has done in their joint manifesto with Russia. Although we want a virgin birth, we are not claiming that it is part of High Level Agreements and U.N. Resolutions and we are certainly not signing anything with anyone stating that it is. Do you or do you not understand this clear difference?

Okay Murat, good luck with your endeavors to convince the UN, the entire EU, and the entire planet for this matter, that the RoC which the regard as their member and which signed thousands of agreements and declarations with, does not really exist as they recognize it, namely to be the 1960 established single legal and sovereign entity for the whole of the island; and that what it instead “exists” is a GC administration in the south and a "TRNC" in the north! Good luck, as I am sure you will need plenty of it, but still it will prove not enough!

I think you Turks are not just from another planet, but in fact from another galaxy!

Actually it was the U.N. that devised and supported a plan of virgin birth in 2004 and despite the storm of negative campaigning by your politicians a whole 24.17% of GCs were in favour of it at the time. If my memory is not failing me, all of it took place on this very planet.

[Kifeas]

Murat, since Christofias is “lying” and is trying to “change the parameters” of the solution that he agreed with Talat, and has made some illegal or illegitimate agreements with the Russians (and the British before them,) why doesn’t Talat abandon the current negotiations and denounce them; and why don’t you ask Turkey to take Cyprus and Russia to the ICJ of The Hague for entering into a wrongful or unlawful agreement, or register the subject matter to the UN SC, for discussion and a possible resolution against the agreement?

[wallace]

"On the other hand, none of the aforementioned documents establish a principle of the evolution of the existing state for the solution of the Cyprus problem."

And equally NO RESOLUTION calls for a dissolution of the Republic of Cyprus, a member of the UN which passed these resolutions. Asking for the dissolution of a state is a huge step, unlikely to have been implicitly understood. If that was the intention why was it not expressly included by Denktash in the high level agreements? Because it was not part of Turkish policy till recently. Denktash is a clefer lawyer and a cunning politician, he would not have left out something he considered vital.

Dissolution of the RoC does not make sense in the context of a Unitary state. It makes plenty of sense if there is an ulterior motive and a longer term plan to dissolve the federation and be left with a TC state which can then claim the whole island.

It is legtitimate according to some people in this forum to seek support for the dissolution of the RoC, but unacceptable to seek allies who reaffirm the RoC's right to exist.

Some moral degenerates expect the GCs who depend on the RoC for their survival to give it up and become something like the TRNC, living off handouts. And that is NOT going to happen.

What is illegitimate and a lie is claiming that the High Level Agreements and U.N. Resolutions seek the solution to be an evolution of the existing state. They do not, period. Claiming that they do is a lie and this is exactly what the GC leadership has done in their joint manifesto with Russia. Although we want a virgin birth, we are not claiming that it is part of High Level Agreements and U.N. Resolutions and we are certainly not signing anything with anyone stating that it is. Do you or do you not understand this clear difference?

Okay Murat, good luck with your endeavors to convince the UN, the entire EU, and the entire planet for this matter, that the RoC which the regard as their member and which signed thousands of agreements and declarations with, does not really exist as they recognize it, namely to be the 1960 established single legal and sovereign entity for the whole of the island; and that what it instead “exists” is a GC administration in the south and a "TRNC" in the north! Good luck, as I am sure you will need plenty of it, but still it will prove not enough!

I think you Turks are not just from another planet, but in fact from another galaxy!

Actually it was the U.N. that devised and supported a plan of virgin birth in 2004 and despite the storm of negative campaigning by your politicians a whole 24.17% of GCs were in favour of it at the time. If my memory is not failing me, all of it took place on this very planet.

Your memory is failing you.....it wasn't a UN plan!!! It was a Kofi Annan plan who favoured Turkey! A whole of 75.83% were against it.........Don't turn the facts around. If it would have been the other way around (24.17% against) we would still have the occupation army here.....because Turks in general don't follow international law. You stupid plonker

[Kifeas]

"On the other hand, none of the aforementioned documents establish a principle of the evolution of the existing state for the solution of the Cyprus problem."

And equally NO RESOLUTION calls for a dissolution of the Republic of Cyprus, a member of the UN which passed these resolutions. Asking for the dissolution of a state is a huge step, unlikely to have been implicitly understood. If that was the intention why was it not expressly included by Denktash in the high level agreements? Because it was not part of Turkish policy till recently. Denktash is a clefer lawyer and a cunning politician, he would not have left out something he considered vital.

Dissolution of the RoC does not make sense in the context of a Unitary state. It makes plenty of sense if there is an ulterior motive and a longer term plan to dissolve the federation and be left with a TC state which can then claim the whole island.

It is legtitimate according to some people in this forum to seek support for the dissolution of the RoC, but unacceptable to seek allies who reaffirm the RoC's right to exist.

Some moral degenerates expect the GCs who depend on the RoC for their survival to give it up and become something like the TRNC, living off handouts. And that is NOT going to happen.

What is illegitimate and a lie is claiming that the High Level Agreements and U.N. Resolutions seek the solution to be an evolution of the existing state. They do not, period. Claiming that they do is a lie and this is exactly what the GC leadership has done in their joint manifesto with Russia. Although we want a virgin birth, we are not claiming that it is part of High Level Agreements and U.N. Resolutions and we are certainly not signing anything with anyone stating that it is. Do you or do you not understand this clear difference?

Okay Murat, good luck with your endeavors to convince the UN, the entire EU, and the entire planet for this matter, that the RoC which the regard as their member and which signed thousands of agreements and declarations with, does not really exist as they recognize it, namely to be the 1960 established single legal and sovereign entity for the whole of the island; and that what it instead “exists” is a GC administration in the south and a "TRNC" in the north! Good luck, as I am sure you will need plenty of it, but still it will prove not enough!

I think you Turks are not just from another planet, but in fact from another galaxy!

Actually it was the U.N. that devised and supported a plan of virgin birth in 2004 and despite the storm of negative campaigning by your politicians a whole 24.17% of GCs were in favour of it at the time. If my memory is not failing me, all of it took place on this very planet.

Not the UN officially, Murat, Kofi Annan did! Now, Kofi Annan is nowhere now, and his idea of a solution doesn't exist! What counts is only what is written in the UN resolutions and the UN Charter, and not what Kofi Annan wrote in his non-binding proposal! Get it Murat, do get it! Kofi Annan made a personal proposal for a political settlement, and that was all! His plan, once rejected in the referendums, became legally invalid and non-binding as per the plan itself!

[halil]

more comments are coming everyday !

Solution in Nicosia not in Moscow

Ozcan Ozcanhan

Greek Cypriot President, Demetris Christofias, has stepped up his tour of international capitals, appealing for help “to end the Turkish occupation so that Cyprus can be re-united and the peoples’ human rights can be restored.”
His latest visit to Moscow is in no way different from others, although the official release from the Cyprus News Agency (CNA) said Mr. Christofias would sign seven agreements covering tourism, trade, culture and so on, in the Russian capital.
A cool-headed, shrewd politician representing the Greek Cypriot community at the negotiating table, bargaining with Turkish Cypriot leader Mehmet Ali Talat, in the search for a mutually acceptable Cyprus settlement, Christofias believes that outside pressures on Turkey and the Turkish Cypriots will yield a good harvest.
He has appealed for help to the European Union, to the US President-elect Barack Obama, UK PM Brown, José Manuel Barroso (President of the European Commission), French President Nicolas Sarkozy; the political leaders of China, Scandinavia and now Russia. “The Cyprus problem will not - and cannot - be resolved unless you exert pressure on Turkey to withdraw its armies from my country so that a federal settlement can be worked out, re-uniting Cyprus with one sovereignty and a single identity;” is roughly what Mr. Christofias is asking.
Before his departure for Moscow, he warned, “Let Turkey decide to contribute for a Cyprus solution, otherwise there will be no solution. Turkey should realise that a settlement in Cyprus will be beneficial for her, also.”
Let me say that inviting interferences from super powers and outsiders “to coerce Turkey” can boomerang. It may back-fire.
“The Cyprus problem will be solved by the two communities of the island. We are ready and willing to extend every possible help to accommodate a fair solution,” is what Mr. Alexander Downer, the UN Special Advisor to Cyprus, has been repeating. A matter of fact, Britain, Turkey and Greece - as the three guarantors - have also been emphasising their similar view. Let the two peoples of Cyprus reach an agreement themselves. We will give full backing.
Mr. Christofias, under the influence of DIKO leader Karoyan, EDEK former leader Dr. Lyssarides, Koutsou, Silluris and Omirou is chasing the illusive outside pressures on Turkey to deliver an agreement.
TRNC Presidential spokesman Mr. Ercakica has pointed to the venue of a Cyprus agreement and final settlement … NICOSIA.
He criticised Mr. Christofias for circling around the world seeking outside pressures on Turkey and the Turkish side, while at the same time negotiating with Mr. Talat at the conference table. Mr. Ercakica said, “Mr. Christofias is eroding the agreed principles of a solution. The solution of the problem will be found in Nicosia by the two peoples and not outsiders in foreign lands”.
Once again Mr. Ercakica pointed to the 23 May declaration by the two leaders and cautioned the Russian Federation leaders.
“The 23 May 2008 joint statement by the two leaders reiterates that a solution will cover a federation based on bicommunality, bizonality, political equality as indicated in UN resolutions. Furthermore, this partnership will provide for a federal government with a single international identity, Turkish Cypriot and Greek Cypriot founding states with political equality,” stressed Presidential Spokesperson Mr Ercakica.
He, also recalled the statements by Mr. Downer and pointed to the time-table of negotiations to take place in 2009.
“We are happy to hear from Mr. Downer that a settlement is targeted in the summer of 2009,” Mr. Ercakica is quoted to have said, answering a question by the press.

Anniversary celebrations

Turkish Cypriots celebrated the 25th Anniversary of the Proclamation of the TRNC with colourful organisations and parades. In general the oath to continue the TRNC was renewed.
In the south of the island, Greek Cypriots led by their political leaders, with boisterous demonstrations and protestations condemned the TRNC, the “Turkish invasion-occupation” and declared that “the struggle will continue until all Turkish forces and settlers are withdrawn and our homeland is re-united. The so-called TRNC will never be recognised.”
This being the situation, how can one be optimistic about the current Cyprus talks and a favourable, honourable solution?
Would it not be more realistic and to the best interest of the two communities to divert their energies to meaningful talks at the conference table for a peaceful, fair and lasting settlement of the Cyprus question, rather than travelling around the world seeking intervention and pressures from outsiders?
The wisest approach must be: “Talks in Nicosia, without outside interferences and pressures and without sinister ulterior motives.” This remains my humblest suggestion.
Russian intervention should not be expected because Moscow would not risk its warm relations with Ankara for the sake of Cyprus.

[email protected]

[Murataga]

"On the other hand, none of the aforementioned documents establish a principle of the evolution of the existing state for the solution of the Cyprus problem."

And equally NO RESOLUTION calls for a dissolution of the Republic of Cyprus, a member of the UN which passed these resolutions. Asking for the dissolution of a state is a huge step, unlikely to have been implicitly understood. If that was the intention why was it not expressly included by Denktash in the high level agreements? Because it was not part of Turkish policy till recently. Denktash is a clefer lawyer and a cunning politician, he would not have left out something he considered vital.

Dissolution of the RoC does not make sense in the context of a Unitary state. It makes plenty of sense if there is an ulterior motive and a longer term plan to dissolve the federation and be left with a TC state which can then claim the whole island.

It is legtitimate according to some people in this forum to seek support for the dissolution of the RoC, but unacceptable to seek allies who reaffirm the RoC's right to exist.

Some moral degenerates expect the GCs who depend on the RoC for their survival to give it up and become something like the TRNC, living off handouts. And that is NOT going to happen.

What is illegitimate and a lie is claiming that the High Level Agreements and U.N. Resolutions seek the solution to be an evolution of the existing state. They do not, period. Claiming that they do is a lie and this is exactly what the GC leadership has done in their joint manifesto with Russia. Although we want a virgin birth, we are not claiming that it is part of High Level Agreements and U.N. Resolutions and we are certainly not signing anything with anyone stating that it is. Do you or do you not understand this clear difference?

Okay Murat, good luck with your endeavors to convince the UN, the entire EU, and the entire planet for this matter, that the RoC which the regard as their member and which signed thousands of agreements and declarations with, does not really exist as they recognize it, namely to be the 1960 established single legal and sovereign entity for the whole of the island; and that what it instead “exists” is a GC administration in the south and a "TRNC" in the north! Good luck, as I am sure you will need plenty of it, but still it will prove not enough!

I think you Turks are not just from another planet, but in fact from another galaxy!

Actually it was the U.N. that devised and supported a plan of virgin birth in 2004 and despite the storm of negative campaigning by your politicians a whole 24.17% of GCs were in favour of it at the time. If my memory is not failing me, all of it took place on this very planet.

Not the UN officially, Murat, Kofi Annan did! Now, Kofi Annan is nowhere now, and his idea of a solution doesn't exist! What counts is only what is written in the UN resolutions and the UN Charter, and not what Kofi Annan wrote in his non-binding proposal! Get it Murat, do get it! Kofi Annan made a personal proposal for a political settlement, and that was all! His plan, once rejected in the referendums, became legally invalid and non-binding as per the plan itself!

"Not the UN officially"?.... Was it a plan that our leaders happened to outsource to a guy named Kofi because they liked his outfit? Was it an unofficial plan? Was the U.N. seal on the plan just a mere a coincidence? Was it something that Kofi wrote on his own in his spare time on the beach? Get a grip. It is true that the Annan Plan is not on the table at this time, but it is also true that the Annan Plan was a U.N. plan, it embodied a virgin birth, it was supported by many countries, and it was supported by a notable portion of the GC community despite the storm of negative campaigning by your political leaders. And all on this planet.

On the other hand, U.N. Resolutions and the Agreements that they refer to (made between our COMMUNAL LEADERS) in regards to the general principles of a solution are still on the table. The fact of the matter is that your leader is making false accusations that that U.N. resolutions that provide guidelines on the principles of solution and the Agreements that they refer to (in this case 77-79 High Level) state that the solution be based on the evolution of the existing "state". THEY DO NOT. Get it?

[repulsewarrior]

what this proves is that Christofias is fighting hard for his country against an interlocutor who seeks to destroy a Cypriot identity and who has only their own interest at heart. he has asked for nothing more than a reiteration of what all the global partners have already shown their support for. it is a very difficult battle for him, although it is very easy for these 'foreign' powers to agree.

turkey (through talat this time) has made and continues to make every effort to deny the principal of a State we can identify as an island and its dwellers as a people. the heritance that is being ruined, the toponomy which they have changed and the roadblocks they continue to assert towards good bilateral relations shows a weakness in their cause which in the end reveals an inability to embrace the changes they must make to evolve toward their own betterment as Humans, and to end the stagnation which is the biggest threat to their own survival as Turks.

Which "Cypriot" are you talking about? The one born in 1960 or the one laying six feet under since 1963????????
Since then there has been TCs and GCs.........Poor little fella died young.

why ask me?...

i come from a "mixed" village.

my family stayed, in 1974; you see 'we' are close to the land, Cypriots, because that is how this island's dwellers are best described.

now 'they' are missing.

tears are still shed by our neighbours, you call 'them' what you like.

[humanist]

We will seek solution anywhere we can get it? no more Turkish troops on Cyprus

[Kifeas]

"Not the UN officially"?.... Was it a plan that our leaders happened to outsource to a guy named Kofi because they liked his outfit? Was it an unofficial plan? Was the U.N. seal on the plan just a mere a coincidence? Was it something that Kofi wrote on his own in his spare time on the beach? Get a grip. It is true that the Annan Plan is not on the table at this time, but it is also true that the Annan Plan was a U.N. plan, it embodied a virgin birth, it was supported by many countries, and it was supported by a notable portion of the GC community despite the storm of negative campaigning by your political leaders. And all on this planet.

On the other hand, U.N. Resolutions and the Agreements that they refer to (made between our COMMUNAL LEADERS) in regards to the general principles of a solution are still on the table. The fact of the matter is that your leader is making false accusations that that U.N. resolutions that provide guidelines on the principles of solution and the Agreements that they refer to (in this case 77-79 High Level) state that the solution be based on the evolution of the existing "state". THEY DO NOT. Get it?

Murat, I know perfectly well what you (your side) are trying to promote and achieve, and as I said, “good luck,” but unfortunately for you, you won’t go too far on it! Trust me; you have no case on this issue!

No, the UN did not officially endorse the A-plan, as the ultimate solution of the Cyprus issue; neither the plan bared the official UN seal or its name on it! Don’t you wonder why? What the UN did, was to authorize the SG to offer his offices and services in helping the two sides reach an agreement, as a mediator, and the two sides accepted such a role without this meaning that whatever he would offer would be binding to them, or it would become the official UN position as to how the problem should be solved. It is very simple, really!

We have this in Cyprus, almost every week, when the labor unions and the employer unions negotiate for the renewal of their collective agreements, and when they reach a deadlock they ask the Minister of Labor to play the role of the mediator between them. What ideas he offers in order to overcome the dispute, are his ideas only, and not the official government positions, or that his ideas become the law as to how the two sides will solve their differences. Sometimes, the two sides decide to assign to the minister the role of not just the mediator, but also that of the arbitrator, and they may even go as far as agreeing that his /her arbitration will be a binding for one or both of the two sides in the dispute. In our case, we accepted Kofi Annan not just as a mediator, but also as an arbitrator, but we did not accept that the result of his arbitration will be binding (only that we will put it to a referendum,) nor that his arbitrating result will become the official UN position or law as to how the solution will look like! It so happened that his arbitrating result deviated from what the UN law and the UN resolutions provide, but still it was up to us to accept! Once we rejected it, it became null and void! It would have become the official UN position, had the UN endorsed his plan in the form of a new UN resolution on Cyprus, something which never happened (Kofi Anan did not even try –knowing that he would have failed, to ask for such a resolution,) and which is unlikely to ever happen.

Now, let me refer to another one of your impossible missions, that of trying to convince the world and us that the solution should be based not on the evolution of the RoC, but instead will be one based on a new partnership agreement between two fictitious (non existing for the time being) separate and legitimately existing state entities in Cyprus, which will come together and form a (con)federal government in-between them, and to which they will “delegate” some of their “sovereign” “rights and powers,” so as to function.

It is a joke really, to believe that such an idea has a chance to ever be adopted, not just by us but also by the UN or the EU, or anyone else in the rest of the world, just because in all or our side agreements or UN resolutions there was no mention to the easily meant premise that any agreement to the dispute, will only constitute an evolution of the legally existing UN member RoC.

If one takes the history of the Cyprus dispute, from 1964 and onwards –to this date, the two sides negotiating are not any two leaders or presidents of any two separate state-entities in Cyprus, but it is only the leaders of the two communities in Cyprus. This is also evident in all UN resolutions, be it before or after 1974. The only premise and /or framework explaining or justifying why the two particular communities are negotiating, from an international law perspective, is only due to the fact that they are recognized under the RoC constitution to be the two main components of both the RoC constitutional framework, and the Cypriot society in general. If that was not the basis, then there would have been no reason or framework based on which the two sides (two communities) would ever have started negotiating in the first place. Such a notion existed before 1974, and it never ceased to exist even after 1974. You have no chance in a million convincing anyone outside Turkey and /or your community that this is not the case, but it is a different one instead!

Now, why are the two communities negotiating with each other, since 1964, and up until this date? We are negotiating, not because the RoC collapsed and dissolved as a subject of international law and it no longer exists as a sovereign UN recognized entity; but because there is an internal constitutional dispute between the two component communities as to what each ones rights are or should be, and how they are or should be observed or practiced! The reason why we -the two communities negotiate, both before and after 1974, is only to resolve the internal dispute, within the framework of the RoC, because this is the only basis or framework as to why both of us exist as communal entities in the first place! This is what the international community understands, and this is how every single UN resolution or side agreement between us can possibly be read!

The international personality of the RoC did not collapse due to this internal dispute, as we and the rest of the world know and accept. It is there and continues to be recognized, no matter what one single country on this planet (Turkey) thinks about it, and in that respect, neither we nor anyone else outside Cyprus (except Turkey) feels or thinks that there is anything that needs to be resolved on that level. If it was a different case, neither the UN would have allowed a seat to the same RoC that was admitted in 1960, to continue occupying it with the same rights and /or privileges, nor the CoE would have done the same, nor the EU would have admitted this same RoC as one of its members states, on behalf and representing the whole island.

In that respect, any agreement between the two communities (because these are the ones negotiating and not any two separate states in Cyprus,) will only resolve the internal constitutional dispute between us, and will only be an evolution of the existing (since 1960) international personality and status of the RoC. You are the only people on this planet who think differently. Good luck in your mission impossible! As far as I am concerned, you are trying to beat up a large thorn bush with a roll of a newspaper, in order to make a fox hiding inside to come out and let you catch it (this is what I once did, when I was a child.) The only thing you will achieve is to destroy your only “weapon,” after the first couple of strikes, and frustrated and heartbroken as you will become, will abandon the bush and the fox.

[Kifeas]

Actually it was the U.N. that devised and supported a plan of virgin birth in 2004 and despite the storm of negative campaigning by your politicians a whole 24.17% of GCs were in favour of it at the time. If my memory is not failing me, all of it took place on this very planet.

BANANIOT!!! Do you hear what Murat is saying? He is saying that in 2004, you were one among this diluted 24% of GCs that accepted the abandonment and dissolution of the RoC, and accepted a confederal solution between a "Greek Cyprus" and a "Turkish Cyprus" nation-states, via a virgin birth approach!

This is what you did, Murat verifies!

Murat, please re-explain to him what you think he did, in case he has any doubts!