Cyprus-Forum.com

[Paphitis]

France can do one simple thing to cinvince Greece of her sincerity regarding the oustanding issues in Greek-Turkish relations:

announce that France recognises a 12 mile limit for Greek territorial waters. Nothing more.

But like times past the EU wants Greece to be the front man and thus attribute keeping Turkey out of the EU to Greece's policy. This was stopped by Greece in 1992 and it will not happen again.

Greece has asked for solidarity from EU partners in something far simpler- the smuggling of people from the Turkish coast to the nearby Greek islands like Lesbos and Chios, but so far no substantial help has come in what is a humanitarian issue which has consequences in all EU countries.

Perhaps Prime Minister Karamanlis should talk to France about these issues. I predict that France is going to want to have a wider influence in the East Mediterranean. So if Greece actually discusses the issue of extending her territorial waters out to 12 miles, then France may be willing to assist and actually permanently station a couple of naval vessels in the Aegean. Turkey would need to think twice about the Casus Belli.

France has also signed a Defence Pact with Cyprus which effectively gives France the right to use Cypriot Military installations at Paphos Airport. To me this indicates that France may wish to have an increased role in the Middle East and so there is no telling what France may be willing to do in order to retain a strategic forward deployment post.

[Paphitis]

The worry is if Turkey senses France (and Germany) would not give it its prize of EU entry, even if it did withdraw from Cyprus, because of their anti Muslim/huge impoverished population stance against Turkey.

These concerns that France and Germany have can be alleviated be having slight deviations from the full EU Acquis. The right of free and unrestricted migration can be denied until Turkey closes towards EU benchmarks as far as economy, development and living standards are concerned.

So I think Greece, may be more willing to sacrifice EU "face" for the ultimate goal of allowing Cyprus to regain freedom from the Turks, but it is something that France would not.

So what you are saying is that Greece is willing to self sacrifice some "face" within the EU as well as abandon her right to extend her territorial seas out to 12 miles to assist Cyprus to gain freedom from Turkish occupation. This is very interesting point you make, and if this is true then we should all be pleased. Only time will tell.

However, what France is actually saying is that our goodwill gestures are bearing absolutely no results. Do you think this may change as Turkey realises that EU accession is impossible without a solution to the Cyprus Problem? Or do you believe that Greece should adopt the French position towards Turkey?

[Nikitas]

Paphitis said:

"I predict that France is going to want to have a wider influence in the East Mediterranean. "

Too little too late. Mediterranean powers, and that basically means France and to a lesser extent Italy, have allowed the US 6th fleet to rule the Med for decades.

I once interviewed two 6th fleet pilots and asked them if they felt vulnerable when so many Mediterranean nations have large air forces, ie Turkey has 200 F16s. Their response is telling:

"Nothing flies in a 1200 mile radius around the fleet unless we say so".

As to the use of Greece as the "bad guy" against Turkey, this is bullshit and Sarkozy knows it. IT takes a unanimous decision to allow Turkey to join. Any ONE negative vote and Turkey does not get in. The Greek vote is irrelevant if the goal is to keep Turkey out, any nation can veto the process alone, so can France.

[Paphitis]

"Nothing flies in a 1200 mile radius around the fleet unless we say so".

This particular statement that these US pilots made is a bit odd.

The reality is that the US has unreal expectations of their capabilities and depend on technology far too much. They really think that they are indestructible, but not every nation is like Iraq. Many other countries can cause their 6th Fleet a great deal of damage and even destroy it.

Australian Collins Class submarines have been within 1000m of every US Aircraft Carrier without being detected. The Royal Australian Navy is forever sending the Pentagon postcard pictures of USN Aircraft Carriers that have been shadowed. This is done to confirm a mock kill.

American capabilities are not what they are cracked up to be I am afraid.

[Nikitas]

Paphitis,

As an expert do you think that the Americans would be so dumb as to sell every Tom Dick and Harry weapons that can conceivably be used against Americans?

Can the F16s of countries like Greece, Turkey, Israel and others be used against American forces without some form of cancelling devices being used against them?

I have been on the Saratoga and seen the readiness of their flight deck. They can have planes in the air in a matter of seconds. Much faster than any other air force I know of and their planes were in top notch condition, which cannot be said for other forces in the area.

[Paphitis]

Paphitis,

As an expert do you think that the Americans would be so dumb as to sell every Tom Dick and Harry weapons that can conceivably be used against Americans?

Can the F16s of countries like Greece, Turkey, Israel and others be used against American forces without some form of cancelling devices being used against them?

I have been on the Saratoga and seen the readiness of their flight deck. They can have planes in the air in a matter of seconds. Much faster than any other air force I know of and their planes were in top notch condition, which cannot be said for other forces in the area.

That would depend on the type of alliance you have with the Americans. Greece and Turkey are given top shelf hardware but perhaps the Americans may have more advance avionics. Your must understand that the F16 can almost be deemed obsolete as the F22 and JSF are about to enter service, and Turkey has become a JSF partner nation.

However, when you talk about countries such as Australia, I can definitely vouch the the very best America has is always on offer. This includes F22 Raptor and it even included nuclear weapons in the past, when Australia had atomic ambitions. The same thing can be said about other nations such as Israel, Canade, UK etc etc..

The Americans also are buying a lot of Australian Technologies such all their night vision equipment which is of Australian design.

As for the Saratoga, how do you think they would cope with an enemy submaine attack? As a said earlier, these Aircraft Carriers have been shadowed in the past. All it takes is 2-3 torpedoes and a couple of Sub Harpoon hits and the Saratoga would make a good reef.

[Get Real!]

Can the F16s of countries like Greece, Turkey, Israel and others be used against American forces without some form of cancelling devices being used against them?

Those who purchase US military hardware may well discover one day that it's useless against US forces...

[Paphitis]

Can the F16s of countries like Greece, Turkey, Israel and others be used against American forces without some form of cancelling devices being used against them?

Those who purchase US military hardware may well discover one day that it's useless against US forces...

That would be true unless you have a stockpile of spare parts and develop the maintenance support.

It is not just about purchasing the aircraft, but you need to develop an ordnance and spare parts inventory. This is what Greece and Turkey lack.

America's biggest advantage would be their ability to place in built errors into the GPS Satellite Constellation, which gives innacurate triangulation. This could deem all GPS Guided Weapons ineffective against US Forces.

[Get Real!]

Can the F16s of countries like Greece, Turkey, Israel and others be used against American forces without some form of cancelling devices being used against them?

Those who purchase US military hardware may well discover one day that it's useless against US forces...

That would be true unless you have a stockpile of spare parts and develop the maintenance support.

It is not just about purchasing the aircraft, but you need to develop an ordnance and spare parts inventory. This is what Greece and Turkey lack.

America's biggest advantage would be their ability to place in built errors into the GPS Satellite Constellation, which gives innacurate triangulation. This could deem all GPS Guided Weapons ineffective against US Forces.

I was talking about security chips (ICs) on the motherboards of surface to air missile systems and even on fighter aircraft that make logical "decisions" on what's friendly and what's not.

I suspect there's a huge difference between what is exported to other countries by the US and what is manufactured for themselves; the Americans can never be trusted...

Pakistan is currently getting a dose of that from their inability to counter US incursions on their mountain ranges bordering Afghanistan. The Pakistani American-made air defense systems are not picking up US drones and aircraft let alone respond to them!

[Paphitis]

Protest over Turkish warships
By Jean Christou

TURKISH warships forced two exploratory foreign-flagged vessels working for the government to withdraw back into Cyprus` territorial waters in an incident ten days ago, it emerged yesterday.

According to reports from New York yesterday President Demetris Christofias has sent a letter to UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon to protest the Turkish actions 27 miles off the south coast and inside Cyprus exclusive economic zone (EEZ).

The Cyprus News Agency report said that on November 13 two ships operating under a foreign flag were conducting an exploratory survey related to oil and gas when they were approached by a Turkish warship and told to cease operations and withdraw back to Cyprus` waters.

The letter said the two vessels complied because they feared for their lives.

“It becomes apparent that Turkey continues its unacceptable policy of questioning the sovereign right of the Republic of Cyprus, as a State Member of the United Nations, to exploit the natural resources within its EEZ, in accordance with international law and in particular the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea,” Christofias said in his letter to the UN Secretary General.

“The gravity of this incident cannot be overstated. Turkey has chosen, once more, to ignore the calls of the international community to actively support the efforts for a (Cyprus) solution and, on the contrary, it continues to do all in its power to undermine such efforts by demonstrating aggressive behaviour.”

Christofias said Turkey’s actions would not stop Cyprus from acting within its legal rights under international law. The letter was sent the day after the incident.

“The incident itself, as well as its timing, gives rise to grave concerns. The hostile and threatening character of the incident points to the increasingly aggressive nature of Turkey’s actions in the maritime area of Cyprus, while its timing, in the midst of a process aiming to reunify the island, serves only to undermine the process and to raise doubts as to Turkey’s commitment to it,” an accompanying letter said.

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=42677

The above is an interesting article. Turkey is challenging our right to explore for oil and natural gas.