Cyprus-Forum.com

[MrH]

D.T

Typically, this guy who wrote the article believes the KKTC is seriously hampering Turkey's EU aspirations, and he seriously believes that our Republic is a waste of time - then why has it lasted, unopposed, for soo long? It's people like him who fail to use the bloody events of our history to fight for Self Determination, but rather choses to mock them! He simply needs to visit the many Graves stones since the 1960s in order to see that we have lived in peace since 1974, and even more since 1983!

Zan, your point is very valid and I also believe that, if Turkey had left at such a critical time recently after the Greek Coup of 1974, the blood shed like the Yugoslavian affair in the 1990s would have indeed returned. If inter-communal bloodshed could happen in the former Yugoslavian state in the 1990s where it was located smack in the middle of the so-called powerful and unified EU, what chance would we have had in front of the so-called Majority Greek Cypriot nationalist in Cyprus?

The declaration as the TRNC was the best thing that could have happened. We now just need to work hard in proving to the Greek Cypriots that it is a reality, a two-state solution is the only way forward and they are not the only Majority owners of the island. Like Talat rightly said, we need to seek a basis on "TWO MAJORITIES".

It's hard for the Greek Cypriot, I know - but we didn't start it.

[Nikitas]

"why can’t the Greek Cypriots accept such a model? "

Becaue DENKTASH and Makarios in 1977 agreed on a BIREGIONAL federation and not on a Binational Confederation. The agreement was reaffirmed in two more agreements.

And because we choose leaders who keep their word, and not protitutes who cannot keep their panties on, we proceed along what was agreed and signed. Are you getting it now Mr H?

[Kifeas]

Hi Denizaksulu,

Thanks for your civilised response.

Okay Deniz, I see your point, and understand your reasons for not agreeing to Partition. However, my main point is primarily based on “Trust” and the recent models(s) adopted by the European Union themselves with Countries in Conflict. Look at the former Yugoslavian Federal Republic State for instance. Look at how the EU felt it Right to Recognise Kosovo due to the uncompromising attitude of some, and the will for Self Determination of others. Look at the UK, with its Northern Ireland and the Falklands, and with how it has chosen to recognise Wales and Scotland as two separate Countries within a United Kingdom – why can’t the Greek Cypriots accept such a model?

I strongly believe that the island would best benefit under a “Step” resolution process. A Process that Gradually conditions all peoples of the island of Cyprus, as the ultra nationalists on either side will always, ultimately trigger off another conflict at this moment in time if we are FORCED to live together without a unanimous solution. In other words, getting a Majority vote of 51% from both sides on a UN Federal Plan does not REALLY mean that it’s the correct course. What happen to the rest of the 49% of people? What if one of those 49% who voted “Yok” or “OXI” decides to take “Political” action via their own means? Answer: Bloodshed! As you’ve rightly mentioned, the Greek Cypriot will obviously say “OXI” to any power sharing BBF plan.

As a result, where does that really leave the situation? I would prefer it if the EU adopted a Cyprus resolution process by example. Recognised two states and allowed them both to establish close links, work side by side, where perhaps one day, we could share the island when the European Union itself is ready to manage and contain such situations of conflict. In my view, I have always believed that we can live side by side, peacefully, but the Greek Cypriots need to realise that we have sensitivities too. We have a lack of Trust towards them too. And, this will take time. Meanwhile, perhaps we could agree to keep both Republic states “Cypriot”, and that could only be achieved if the Greek Cypriots would let down their “Ownership” and “Majority” guard and recognise a Turkish Cypriot Entity. Whether, it’s in the form of two Constituent, Republic or Federated states, I don’t care – it just need to be resolved.

I look forward to your response.

MrH, I feel and “sympathize” with your agony to invent and ‘establish” a thesis which will allow your community of only the 18% of the people, to grab and usurp twice as much territory from Cyprus, claim it as their own and become able to run away with it. However, MrH, unfortunately for you and your cause, you are not the only clever ones in this country and planet; and fortunately there are many that are at least as clever as you are.

[Nikitas]

Mr H, would you be happy to have the same status within Cyprus as Wales and Scotland have within the UK? Are you sure you know how these two areas are governed?

[MrH]

Nikitas,

Thanks for your reply.

Interesting point! But, where does that leave us? How long do you expect the Turkish Cypriots to wait? In my view, if this BBF plan fails flat on its face, paritition is inevitable without a doubt. We are proud of our TRNC state, but we will soon demand international recognition by REJECTING any future UN call for more fruitless BBF plans.

A BBF plan is only acceptable to us if ALL of our sensitivities are met - this is why the former Yugoslavian states have gone their seperate ways! A Federal BBF plan is just not practical in this day and age of Self-Determination and Equal Rights. Clearly, due to the vast population different between the Turkish and Greek Cypriots, us Turkish Cypriots will always be out-numbered!

[Nikitas]

Mr H,

The challenge of all modern organisations, whether they are states, commercial companies or simple social clubs, is the safegurding of minorities. In the case of Cyprus this has been settled in principle by the UN resolutions and the initial statements to all negotiations that the two sides are politically equal. So at the level of the federation the two regions are equal, regardless of their population and relative size.

This is how federations with much longer history than ours function. In the USA each state is equal to any other state, as proven by the senate allocation of seats.

Simultaneously there is the implementation of democratic principles, the one man on vote principle, in the allocation of seats in the house of representatives where seats are allocated according to the population of each state.

Others have gone down the same road we are on and they succeded, so can we, unless you think that Cypriots as a whole have some genetic defect which makes them dumber than Americans, Swiss, Canadians, Australians, Germans and other federal nations.

You talk about partition but serious TC commentators oppose it because it would mean the total extinciton of TCs.

[halil]

"why can’t the Greek Cypriots accept such a model? "

Becaue DENKTASH and Makarios in 1977 agreed on a BIREGIONAL federation and not on a Binational Confederation. The agreement was reaffirmed in two more agreements.

And because we choose leaders who keep their word, and not protitutes who cannot keep their panties on, we proceed along what was agreed and signed. Are you getting it now Mr H?

Denktash - Makarios agreement
4 Points High Level Agreement (1977)1. We are seeking an independent, non-aligned, bi-communal Federal Republic.
2. The territory under the administration of each community should be discussed in the light
of economic viability or productivity and land ownership.
3. Questions of principles like freedom of movement, freedom of settlement, the right of
property and other specific matters, are open for discussion taking into consideration the
fundamental basis of a bi-communal federal system and certain practical difficulties
which may arise for the Turkish Cypriot community.
4. The powers and functions of the Central Federal Government will be such as to
safeguard the unity of the country, having regard to the bi-communal character of the
State.
10 Points High Level Agreement (1979)1. It was agreed to resume the intercommunal talks on 15 June 1979.
2. The basis for the talks will be the Makarios/Denktash guidelines of 12 February 1977 and
the United Nations resolutions relevant to the Cyprus question.
3. There should be respect for human rights and fundamental freedom of all citizens of the
Republic.
4. The talks will deal with all territorial and constitutional aspects.
5. Priority will be given to reaching agreement on the resettlement of Varosha under United
Nations auspices simultaneously with the beginning of the consideration by the
interlocutors of the constitutional and territorial aspects of a canprehensive settlement.
After agreement on Varosha has been reached, it will be implemented without waiting the
outcome of the discussion on other aspects of the Cyprus problem.
6. It ws agreed to abstain from any action which might jeopardize the outcome of the talks,
and special importance will be given to initial practical measures by both sides to
promote goodwill, mutual confidence and the return to normal conditions.
7. The demilitarization of the Republic of Cyprus is envisaged, and matters relating thereto
will be discussed.
8. The independence, sovereignty, territorial integrity, and non-alignment of the Republic
should be adequately guaranteed against union in whole or in part with any other country
and against any form of partition or secession.
9. The intercommunal talks will be carried out in a continuing and sustained manner,
avoiding any delay.
10. The intercommunal talks will take plax in Nicosia.



25th July agreement Talat - Demetris Christofias
Joint Statement
By Greek Cypriot Leader Demetris Christofias And Turkish Cypriot Leader Mehmet Ali Talat
25 July 2008
“Today the Leaders undertook the final review of the work of the Working Groups and Technical Committees. They noted the results achieved and commended their members for all their efforts.
Having made their final review, the Leaders decided to start their full-fledged negotiations on 3 September 2008, under the good offices mission of the United Nations Secretary-General.
The aim of the full-fledged negotiations is to find a mutually acceptable solution to the Cyprus problem, which will safeguard the fundamental and legitimate rights and interests of Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots. The agreed solution will be put to separate simultaneous referanda.
Regarding the Technical Committees, the Leaders today approved sixteen more measures in the areas of environment, cultural heritage, crisis management, crime and criminal matters, and gave instructions for their immediate and full implementation.
As a reflection of their heightened engagement, the Leaders have agreed to establish a secure hotline to facilitate direct contact between them.
The Leaders welcome the appointment of Mr. Alexander Downer as the Secretary-General’s Special Adviser for Cyprus, and look forward to working with him and the UN team in the coming period.
They also instructed their Representatives to take up the issue of Limnitis/Yeşilırmak and other crossings.”


23rd Agreement Talat -Demetris Christofias

23 May Agreement
The Leaders today had genuine and fruitful discussions, and reviewed the results achieved pursuant to the 21
March agreement.
They reaffirmed their commitment to a bi-zonal, bi-communal federation with political equality, as defined by relevant Security Council resolutions. This partnership will have a Federal Government with a single international personality, as well as a Turkish Cypriot Constituent State and a Greek Cypriot Constituent State, which will be of equal status.
They instructed their Representatives to examine, within 15 days, the results of the technical committees.
The Representatives will consider civilian and military confidence-building measures. They will also pursue the opening of Limnitis/Yeşilırmak and other crossing points.
The Leaders decided to come together again in the second half of June to make a new assessment.

[halil]

Draft Framework Agreement on Cyprus, 29 March
1986
Recognising with satisfaction that the initiative of the Secretary-General, which
bore in mind the relevant United Nations resolutions and which began in August
1984 in Vienna and continued through the high-level proximity talks from
September to December 1984 and the joint high- level meeting of January 1985
held in New York, has now resulted in an important step towards a just and lasting
settlement of the Cyprus problem; The parties agree on the following matters
which are to be viewed as an integrated whole:
I.1 The Parties:
(a) Recommit themselves to the high-level agreements of 1977 and 1979;
(b) Indicate their determination to proceed, at the date referred to in paragraph
15.1 below, to the establishment of a Federal Republic that will be independent
and non-aligned, bi-communal as regards the federal constitutional aspect and bizonal
as regards the territorial aspect;
(c) Reaffirm their acceptance of those introductory constitutional provisions that
were agreed upon at the intercommunal talks in 1981-82;
(i) The Federal Republic of Cyprus shall have international personality. The federal
government shall exercise sovereignty in respect of all of the territory. The
attributes of international personality shall be exercised by the federal government
in accordance with the federal constitution. The provinces or federated states may
act in their areas of competence in accordance with the federal constitution and in
a manner that would not duplicate the powers and functions of the federal
government as defined in the federal constitution.
(ii) The people of the Federal Republic shall comprise the Greek Cypriot community
and the Turkish Cypriot community. There shall be a single citizenship of the
Federal Republic of Cyprus regulated by federal law.
(iii) The territory of the Federal Republic shall comprise the two provinces or
federated states.
(iv) The official languages of the Federal Republic shall be Greek and Turkish. The
English language may also be used.
(v) The Federal Republic shall have a neutral flag and anthem to be agreed. Each
province or federated state may have its own flag using mainly elements of the
federal flag. The federal flag shall be flown on federal buildings and federal
locations to the exclusion of any other flag.
(vi) The federal government shall observe the holidays of the Federal Republic.
Each province or federated state shall observe the federal holidays as well as those
established by it.

(vii) The parties reaffirm all other points that were agreed upon during the course
of the intercommunal talks as contained in the 'revision' dated 18 May 1982
concerning general provisions. Part I, fundamental rights and liberties. Part H, as
well as Parts III and IV.
2.1 The powers and functions to be vested in the federal government of the
Federal Republic shall comprise:
(a) Foreign affairs.
(b) Federal financial affairs (including federal budget, taxation, customs and excise
duties).
(c) Monetary and banking affairs.
(d) Federal economic affairs (including trade and tourism).
(e) Posts and telecommunications.
(f) International transport.
(g) Natural resources (including water supply, environment).
(h) Federal health and veterinary affairs.
(i) Standard setting: weights and measures, patents, trademarks,
copyrights.
(j) Federal judiciary.
(k) Appointment of federal officers.
(1) Defence (to be discussed also in connection with the treaties of guarantee and
of alliance); security (as it pertains to federal responsibility).
2.2 Additional powers and functions may be vested in the federal government by
common agreement of both sides. Accordingly, the residual powers shall rest with
the provinces or federated states. Federal legislation may be executed either by
authorities of the federal government or by
way of coordination between the competent authorities of the federal government
and of the two provinces or federated states.
3.1 The legislature of the Federal Republic will be composed of two chambers: a
lower chamber with a 70-30 Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot representation, and
an upper chamber with a 50-50 representation. Federal legislation will be enacted
with regard to the matters of federal competence as referred to in paragraph 2.1
above. The adoption of legislation on major matters, as for instance on ten of the
twelve functions referred to in paragraph 2.1 above, will require separatemajorities in both chambers. The adoption of legislation on other matters will
require majorities of the membership in each chamber.
3.2 Appropriate constitutional safeguards and deadlock resolving machinery
including special provisions to facilitate action on matters necessary for the
continued functioning of the federal government (e.g. on budgetary questions) will
be incorporated in the federal constitution. In case of deadlock in the legislature,
the proposed legislation may be submitted in the first instance to a conciliation
committee of the legislature composed of three Greek Cypriots and two Turkish
Cypriots, whose decision will be taken on the basis of majority vote including at
least one Turkish Cypriot. If the deadlock persists, the president and vice-president
of the Federal Republic will, upon request, appoint on an ad hoc basis one persons
each, selected for their knowledge of the subject involved, who, with the
assistance of experts as needed, including from outside the Federal Republic of
Cyprus, will advise the legislature on ways the deadlock could be resolved. The
matter may also be submitted to a referendum among the population of the
community which opposed the draft legislation. Legislation adopted by the
legislature may be taken to the Constitutional Court for ruling as to whether it
violates the constitution or is discriminatory against either community.
4.1 The Federal Republic will have a presidential system of government. The
president and the vice-president will symbolise the unity of the country and the
equal political status of the two communities. In addition, the executive will
reflect the functional requirements of an effective federal government.
4.2 The president will be a Greek Cypriot and the vice-president will be a Turkish
Cypriot. The president and the vice-president will, separately or conjointly, have
the right to veto any law or decision of the legislature and the Council of Ministers
in areas to be agreed upon, it being understood that the scope will exceed that
covered by the 1960 constitution. The president and the vice-president will have
the right, separately or conjointly, to return any law or decision of the legislature
or any decision of the Council of Ministers for reconsideration.
4.3 The Council of Ministers will be composed of Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot
ministers on a 7 to 3 ratio. One major ministry will be headed by a Turkish Cypriot,
it being understood that the parties agree to discuss that the Minister for Foreign
Affairs will be a Turkish Cypriot. The Council of Ministers will take decisions by
weighted voting, that is a simple majority including at least one Turkish Cypriot
minister. It is understood that the parties agree to discuss that weighted voting will
apply to all matters of special concern to the Turkish Cypriot community to be
agreed upon.
4.4 Appropriate constitutional safeguards and deadlock resolving machinery related
to decisions by the Council of Ministers, including special provisions to facilitate
action on matters necessary for the continued functioning of the federal
government, will be incorporated in the federal constitution. In case of deadlock,
the president and vice- president of the Federal Republic will, upon request,
appoint on an ad hoc basis one person each, selected for their knowledge of the
subject involved, who, with the assistance of experts as needed, including from
outside the Federal Republic of Cyprus, will advise the Council of Ministers on ways .
the deadlock could be resolved. The matter may also be submitted to a referendum
among the population of the community which opposed the draft decision. A
decision by the Council of Ministers may be taken to the Constitutional Court for
ruling as to whether it violates the constitution or is discriminatory against either
community.
5.1 The Constitutional Court, when ruling on disputes relating to the distribution of
powers and functions between the federal government and the provinces or
federated states and on such other matters as may be assigned to it by the parties
in accordance with the federal constitution, will be composed of one Greek
Cypriot, one Turkish Cypriot and one non-Cypriot voting member,
6.1 As regards freedom of movement, freedom of settlement and right to property,
a working group will discuss the exercise of these rights, including time-frames,
practical regulations and possible compensation arrangements, taking into account
guideline 3 of the 1977 agreement.
7.1 Territorial adjustments, in addition to the areas already referred to in the 5
August 1981 Turkish Cypriot proposals, will be agreed upon. These territorial
adjustments will result in the Turkish Cypriot province or federated state
comprising in the order of 29 plus per cent of the territory of the Federal Republic.
It is understood that when discussing the actual territorial adjustments the two
sides will have in mind the 1977 high-level agreement including 'certain practical
difficulties which may arise for the Turkish Cypriot community' and the questions
related to resettlement. Both sides agree to suggest special status areas adjacent
to each other for the purpose of enhancing trust between the sides. These areas
will remain under their respective civilian jurisdictions.
8.1 A timetable for the withdrawal of non-Cypriot military troops and elements, as
well as adequate guarantees, will be agreed upon prior to the establishment of a
transitional federal government. In the meantime, military deconfrontation
measures will be pursued by both sides, using the good offices and assistance of
UNFICYP.
8.2 The two sides undertake to discuss these issues in good faith and to consider
each other's concerns on them.
9.1 A Fund for Development of the Turkish Cypriot province or federated state shall
be established with a view to achieving an economic equilibrium between the two
provinces or federated states. A fund will also be established to facilitate the
resettlement of the Greek Cypriot displaced persons, and for the Turkish Cypriots
displaced as a consequence of the implementation of paragraph 7.1. The federal
government shall contribute to these funds. Foreign governments and international
organisations shall be invited to contribute to the funds.
10.1 The Varosha area and the six additional areas delineated in the Turkish
Cypriot map of 5 August 1981 will be placed under United Nations interim
administration as part of the UNFICYP buffer zone for resettlement by....

11.1 Both parties agree not to take any action tending to prejudice the process
outlined in this agreement, both on the international scene and internally.
12.1 The Nicosia international airport will be reopened under interim United
Nations administration with free access from both sides. The United Nations will
conclude the arrangements to that effect by....
13.1 Adequate machinery for considering allegations of non-implementation of
confidence-building measures will be agreed upon. The Secretary-General will
make appropriate recommendations to both sides in this regard.
14.1 The parties to agree to establish working groups to work out the detailed
agreements on the matters referred to in this agreement, whose elements are
inter-related and constitute an integrated whole. The working groups will carry out
their work under the direction of joint high-level
meetings. These joint high-level meetings will take place every three to four
months, on the basis of an agenda prepared by the Secretary-General, to discuss
the issues which remain to be negotiated under this agreement, to review the work
and provide guidance to the working groups. The joint high-level meetings will be
convened by the Secretary-General after adequate preparation.
14.2 Each working group will be composed of delegations from the two sides and
will be chaired by a representative of the Secretary-General. The working groups
will begin their meetings at the United Nations premises in Nicosia on.... Each
working group will prepare a programme of work and will submit it for approval
and guidance to the joint high-level meeting which will take place at the United
Nations premises in Nicosia on....
14.3 The representative of the Secretary-General chairing each working group will
every three months prepare an assessment of the progress made by the working
group, which will be presented to the next joint high-level meeting together with
the views of the Secretary-General.
15.1 The parties agree that, the required working groups having completed their
work and having obtained the approval of the two sides, the transitional federal
government of the Federal Republic of Cyprus will be set up on....
16.1 The Secretary-General will remain at the disposal of the parties to assist in
the elaboration of this agreement, and, if required, in its interpretation.

[Get Real!]

Your answers were all TYPICAL and OBVIOUS, which is why I thought you'd all pass the test.

Ayse, what can I say? On the one hand I feel sorry for you because you’re as daft as a tree sloth and on the other I can’t allow you to propagate rubbish and risk infesting people’s minds with your drivel that totally ignores facts and international law.

I advised you on many occasions to stick to your kitchen, forget politics, and leave it to those who are willing & able to read and learn because you are clearly NOT one of them, and the CF is not ATCA where one can take people for a free tour of their fantasies without being scrutinized.

I rest my case!

NEXT SUBJECT.

You need to have a case before you rest it... Look, if you plan to stick around the Bubbles can take you under their umbrella with whom you can discuss cooking recipes, fashion, games, jokes, etc, and in six months time maybe we can look at your case again about advancing to Oracle’s dungeon of mental preparation in debate.

[MrH]

Get Real!

Thank you for the comments!

I remember once seeing a photograph of you and your Mrs! Many years ago? Please don't try and mock me, especially on a site where many are listening! Otherwise those photos may soon re-appear!!!!!!

Meanwhile, please cut the rubbish and engage in some real politics, not the kind that you are obviously used to.

Regarding Cyprus - a new Prospective, in my view is simply out of the question GR - we need a formula based on the realities, based on a two State agreement, otherwise you may just wake up to find Northern Cyprus as a recognised state similar to Kosovo - and you know it. Why can't you be like D.T and discuss within polite parameters your reasoning instead of resorting to Childish remarks!

Turkey is clearly a nation the EU, U.S and Asia regard as more important than Greece our the small GC Controlled Cyprus. The TRNC has not been forcefully disbanded, and nor has Turkey been forced to abandon its recognition of it. Judging by how the EU seriously mocked Greece and the GC Controlled ROC with the recognition of Kosovo, I wouldn't be surprised if the EU are soon forced to recognise us!

You can be as sarcastic as much as you want, it's only your outlook which is made to look daft - and everyone knows it.

Engage in proper Dialogue GR and not wasted text.

Blah Blah Blah!!!!