Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Although Cypriots traded with Minoans and adopted their Alphabet to some extend to form their own

Yes GR, the Cypriots adopted the Minoan Script to form their own Script. And you know in what language the Cypriot Script was in? Greek. Again from a link you posted:

While the earliest examples dating from as early as 1500 BCE cannot be read, comparisons clearly show that the Cypriot syllabary seemed to have derived from Linear A, and therefore is like a sibling to Linear B. For this reason, sometimes the script at this very early stage is called Cypro-Minoan, to distinguish it from the Cypriot script used for writing Greek after the 12th century BCE.

So I ask you GR: Why did Cypriots developed the Script they adopted from the Minoans into a script for writing Greek?

The answer is that by that time the majority of the people of the island were already Greek, and they naturally developed the cypr-minoan script into a script to write their own language, Greek, and that is how the Cypriot-syllabary was created.

And then we, the Cypriots (=Greek), developed a better way to write our (=Greek) language, and developed the Greek Alphabet. Again from a link you posted:

A classics and linguistics scholar has found a bridge between the pre-alphabetic scripts of the ancient Greeks of Cyprus and the Greek alphabet -- and argues that the Mediterranean island is therefore most likely the place where the Greek alphabet was invented.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 151297.php

What this shows is that not only the Cypriots have been Greek already since then, but also that Cyprus has been an important center of development of the Greek civilization, and not just some forgotten corner of it.

Piratis, if the Cypriots had a 'Greek' alphabet, why would they have a Cypro-Minoan script and not a Greek script.

We developed the Greek Alphabet. How could we have been using a "Greek Alphabet" before we developed it? We took the Minoan script and based on that we developed the Cypriot syllabary to write our own language (Greek). Then when the Phonecians settled in the east part of Cyprus, we realized their way of writing had advantages (we give them credit for that), so we took it from them, we combined it with what we already had from the Cypriot Syllabary, and we created the Greek Alphabet.

I speak English and that does not make me English. So stop calling the then Cypriots Greek.

Is English your native language? Did you adopt the English culture and religion? If you do, then I can guarantee you that your grandchildren will be 100% English.

That is how it works Deniz. Ethnicity is about an identity which is based on language, culture and religion. What did you think? That the world was created with two Turks, two Greeks, two English etc, and each one of us today is the direct descendant of each of those "initial pairs"? Ethnicity is not about a "direct line of blood".

[Piratis]

Yes GR, the Cypriots adopted the Minoan Script to form their own Script. And you know in what language the Cypriot Script was in? Greek. Again from a link you posted:

That would make us more Greek than the mainland Greeks.

Each part of the Greek world played is own important part in creating what everybody knows today to be "Greek".

The Greek civilization was not something that already existed and which we adopted. We were integral parts of creating this civilization right from the very begging.

[Oracle]

This thread exemplifies what is best about this forum and the strengths of the key analysts we have here, Paphitis and Piratis.

GR! does what he does best, pushes the boundaries and goes all out to prove his flaky theories with mind improving results for all.

I'm going to enjoy spending a few hours reading this thread thoroughly ...

Keep up the good work one and all.

(Even Yialousa is coming out trumps ... )

[Get Real!]

GR! does what he does best, pushes the boundaries and goes all out to prove his flaky theories with mind improving results for all.

I haven't done that yet Oracle. Thus far I've been doing nothing more than toying with them. You'll know when I get serious when I present a polished professional dedicated article that leaves no stone unturned and takes no prisoners. Something that still hasn't happened...

Let's play around the surface for the time being and see how things evolve...

[Get Real!]

Yes GR, the Cypriots adopted the Minoan Script to form their own Script. And you know in what language the Cypriot Script was in? Greek. Again from a link you posted:

It’s interesting to observe Piratis’ Greek (or Greek-poisoned) mind not allowing him to give Cypriots a smidgen of credit for anything… he has twisted the invention of the Cypriot syllabic Alphabet around by claiming that Greeks on Cyprus invented it therefore it is Greek!

The constant undermining of Cyprus and incessant elevation of Greece is a centuries-old tactic to break the Cypriot spirit. Such is the ferocity of the war being fought against Cyprus mostly from WITHIN.

[BlackBolt]

GR! does what he does best, pushes the boundaries and goes all out to prove his flaky theories with mind improving results for all.

I haven't done that yet Oracle. Thus far I've been doing nothing more than toying with them. You'll know when I get serious when I present a polished professional dedicated article that leaves no stone unturned and takes no prisoners. Something that still hasn't happened...

Let's play around the surface for the time being and see how things evolve...

When was the last time you did that?

You're so much more fun when you're on a mission

[denizaksulu]

Reminded by the archaelogical artifacts found in Cyprus, I always believed that Cypriot art was unique to Cyprus. Mind ful that I am neautral in this debate, has Crete or the Greek mainland produced anything similar to those pictured.

For Khiroikitia to exist as we see from the excavations there must have been a 'previous history to these settlements. IMO there would have ben more of contemporary settlements of the Khirochitian type/period. What we would see there would be the 'richer' cities as opposed to the poorer sited which disappeared without trace. ( ie: there were more than 300 hundred 'Khirochitians').

Look at the medievel times. The poor lived in wooden houses and only the rich lived in stone/ marble dressed houses which survive till today. I guess there is not much contemporary credible evidence. As for the maps I dont think they would carry much weight. In the uk they found Egyptian and other Mediterranean artifacts. Would a map maker be justified in painting the uk in the same colours as the Levant/Egypt? Just curious.

Denis, nobody questions that pre-historic settlements existed in Cyprus just as they existed everywhere.

Here is a map of pre-historic settlements that existed in Turkey. Some of them far older that Chirokitia (Cyprus is an island, and before boats where invented it was very difficult to get on the island)

http://www.ancientanatolia.com/map01.htm

Such pre-historic settlements existed everywhere.

Now I ask you: Are those pre-historic settlements in Asia Minor Turkish?
The fact that those pre-historic settlements exist, does it make the Turks any less Turks?

Your Ethnicity is not defined by the pre-historic settlements that exist under the land you currently inhabit. Your ethnicity is defined by your identity, your language and your culture.
There is absolutely no question that the vast majority of Cypriots have been Greeks right from the beginning of the creation of Greeks. Cypriots are among those people who created and defined the what it means to be Greek. Without the Cypriots (just as without the Athenians, Cretans, Spartans etc) there would be no such thing such as a "Greek" in the way we know it today. We (along with the other Greeks) created what being Greek means. (just imagine Greeks without the Greek Alphabet for example)

Piratis says:

"Your ethnicity is defined by your identity, your language and your culture. [/color

With a swipe of your 'pen' you have changed thousands of TC and GC's ethnicity.

I am always ready to listen to a good debate. Your statement I am afraid does not fall into this category. Sorry

[Piratis]

Yes GR, the Cypriots adopted the Minoan Script to form their own Script. And you know in what language the Cypriot Script was in? Greek. Again from a link you posted:

It’s interesting to observe Piratis’ Greek (or Greek-poisoned) mind not allowing him to give Cypriots a smidgen of credit for anything… he has twisted the invention of the Cypriot syllabic Alphabet around by claiming that Greeks on Cyprus invented it therefore it is Greek!

The constant undermining of Cyprus and incessant elevation of Greece is a centuries-old tactic to break the Cypriot spirit. Such is the ferocity of the war being fought against Cyprus mostly from WITHIN.

How do I undermine Cyprus when I say that Cypriots are, along with the other Greeks, the creators of the great Greek Civilization which is renowned around the world?

You are the one who is trying to reduce Cypriots to a mere pre-historic settlement and erase all our major achievements and take away the credit we deserve in creating (along with the rest of Greeks) the Greek civilization.

The Greek civilization my friend is not just Athens. There are many other places which help to develop the Greek civilization in its very initials stages at a time when Athens was still nothing, and Cyprus is one of those places.

You can not give the whole credit for the Greek Civilization to only some Greeks, and deny to us our valuable contribution.

[Piratis]

Reminded by the archaelogical artifacts found in Cyprus, I always believed that Cypriot art was unique to Cyprus. Mind ful that I am neautral in this debate, has Crete or the Greek mainland produced anything similar to those pictured.

For Khiroikitia to exist as we see from the excavations there must have been a 'previous history to these settlements. IMO there would have ben more of contemporary settlements of the Khirochitian type/period. What we would see there would be the 'richer' cities as opposed to the poorer sited which disappeared without trace. ( ie: there were more than 300 hundred 'Khirochitians').

Look at the medievel times. The poor lived in wooden houses and only the rich lived in stone/ marble dressed houses which survive till today. I guess there is not much contemporary credible evidence. As for the maps I dont think they would carry much weight. In the uk they found Egyptian and other Mediterranean artifacts. Would a map maker be justified in painting the uk in the same colours as the Levant/Egypt? Just curious.

Denis, nobody questions that pre-historic settlements existed in Cyprus just as they existed everywhere.

Here is a map of pre-historic settlements that existed in Turkey. Some of them far older that Chirokitia (Cyprus is an island, and before boats where invented it was very difficult to get on the island)

http://www.ancientanatolia.com/map01.htm

Such pre-historic settlements existed everywhere.

Now I ask you: Are those pre-historic settlements in Asia Minor Turkish?
The fact that those pre-historic settlements exist, does it make the Turks any less Turks?

Your Ethnicity is not defined by the pre-historic settlements that exist under the land you currently inhabit. Your ethnicity is defined by your identity, your language and your culture.
There is absolutely no question that the vast majority of Cypriots have been Greeks right from the beginning of the creation of Greeks. Cypriots are among those people who created and defined the what it means to be Greek. Without the Cypriots (just as without the Athenians, Cretans, Spartans etc) there would be no such thing such as a "Greek" in the way we know it today. We (along with the other Greeks) created what being Greek means. (just imagine Greeks without the Greek Alphabet for example)

Piratis says:

"Your ethnicity is defined by your identity, your language and your culture. [/color

With a swipe of your 'pen' you have changed thousands of TC and GC's ethnicity.

I am always ready to listen to a good debate. Your statement I am afraid does not fall into this category. Sorry

I say that Ethnicity is about a common identity which is based on things like language, religion and culture. What is your definition of Ethnicity, lets hear it.

Is ethnicity defined by country of origin? If that was the case then each country would have its own unique ethnicity, and everybody that was born in that country would be of the exact same ethnicity. So that is not the case.

Is ethnicity defined by region. So each region which is physically separated, say by water (like an island) or mountains, have its own separate ethnicity? Again, that is not the case.

Is an ethnicity defined by people themselves. Sure. This can be the case. But the vast majority of people define themselves based on their language, culture, religion and traditions. Nobody is forcing you to do that of course. You can define yourself as you wish, and at the same time you have to respect how others define themselves.

Did you know that like in Cyprus we have some "Chirokitians" in the UK they have some "Jedi"?

Here:
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/census2001 ... k/jedi.asp

Nuts exist everywhere. No problem. GR Can think of himself however he wants. But he can not change the ethnicity that Cypriots had for 1000s of years.

[denizaksulu]

The quickest way to get a definition of course was to search the net. With all its faults, this is what Wikipedia comes up with. Defining 'ethnicity' is really difficult for scholars never mind a humble person such as me. The below defintions are more complete than yours, but I need to study it further. But for the moment in the second paragraph, there is the expression'common descent'. I think this is the concept that G and Bafidis are debating. To me this is the sticking point among arguers of the definition. I do not deny any Hellenic culture in Cyprus, as this we were taught at primary school level. (prior to 1958). What concerns me most is not the adopted Greek culture and language, it is the people of Cyprus itself. I accept their will be Hellenic 'blood' on the island but to what extent . Ofcourse they did not wipeout the indigenous people of Cyprus. Lets say they mixed with intermarriage etc. Are they then of the same ethnic background as you claim, simply because they have learnt the 'lingua Franca' of the day which was Greek?


[edit] Definition
Sociologist Max Weber once remarked that "the whole conception of ethnic groups is so complex and so vague that it might be good to abandon it altogether."[9]

In any case, Weber proposed a definition of ethnic group that became accepted by many sociologists[citation needed]:

[T]hose human groups that entertain a subjective belief in their common descent because of similarities of physical type or of customs or both, or because of memories of colonization and migration; this belief must be important for group formation; furthermore it does not matter whether an objective blood relationship exists.[9]

Anthropologist Ronald Cohen, in a review of anthropological and sociological studies of ethnic groups since Weber, claimed that the identification of "ethnic groups" by social scientists often reflected inaccurate labels more than indigenous realities:

... the named ethnic identities we accept, often unthinkingly, as basic givens in the literature are often arbitrarily, or even worse inaccurately, imposed.[10]
Cohen also suggests that claims concerning "ethnic" identity (like earlier claims concerning "tribal" identity) are often colonialist practices and effects of the relations between colonized peoples and nation-states.[10] Harold Isaacs has identified other diacritics (distinguishing markers) of ethnicity, among them physical appearance, name, language, history, and religion;[11] this definition has entered some dictionaries.[12] Social scientists have thus focused on how, when, and why different markers of ethnic identity become salient. Thus, anthropologist Joan Vincent observed that ethnic boundaries often have a mercurial character.[13] Ronald Cohen concluded that ethnicity is "a series of nesting dichotomizations of inclusiveness and exclusiveness".[10] He agrees with Joan Vincent's observation that (in Cohen's paraphrase) "Ethnicity ... can be narrowed or broadened in boundary terms in relation to the specific needs of political mobilization.[10] This may be why descent is sometimes a marker of ethnicity, and sometimes not: which diacritic of ethnicity is salient depends on whether people are scaling ethnic boundaries up or down, and whether they are scaling them up or down depends generally on the political situation.

Christian organizations use a definition for the purpose of church advancement and planning. According to the the Lausanne 1982 conference, people/ethnic group definition is considered as "For evangelization purposes, a people group is the largest group within which the Gospel can spread as a church planting movement without encountering barriers of understanding or acceptance (of the message