Cyprus-Forum.com

[denizaksulu]

The Minoans, Mycenaeans, and Cypriots are consummated.



Ans the Europeans map of Ethnicity (thanks Piratis).



http://www.anesi.com/rmap2.jpg

I am following the above exchanges with interest. Most of the evidence,(archaelogical, pottery etc) produced are then interpreted by historians and other scholars. There will always be arguments and counter arguments. Various traders will leave their 'wares' all over the place. It will be difficult to interpret these findings. Is any written evidence which could be indisputable?. Often enough classical Greek scholars turn out to be 'legend writers', like Omer (-os)/ok ok I do mean Homer. I too did like the idea of Atlantis being just south-east of Cyprus. Do either of you believe in the legend of 'Atlantis'?

Please do carry on the Mycenian.Minoan debate. It is fascinating. The name calling we could do without, but I think it also adds to the humour.

I am glad they found no Phoenician artifacts in Greenland. Imagine Greenland in Piratis maps.

[Get Real!]

Paphiti,

Although Cypriots traded with Minoans and adopted their Alphabet to some extend to form their own you won’t find any decent website to claim that Cypriots descended from Minoans as you claimed so don’t get confused about their relationship.

The blurred blue map you produced here is useless as we can’t read what it says so what’s the point of posting it? It may well be referring to the “Hellenistic period” which came much later (300BC..50BC?) and close to Christ’s birth.

You've posted many links but not a single one claims that "Cypriots descended from Minoans" by any measure. You just don't have an argument.

[Paphitis]

Paphiti,

Although Cypriots traded with Minoans and adopted their Alphabet to some extend to form their own you won’t find any decent website to claim that Cypriots descended from Minoans as you claimed so don’t get confused about their relationship.

The blurred blue map you produced here is useless as we can’t read what it says so what’s the point of posting it? It may well be referring to the “Hellenistic period” which came much later (300BC..50BC?) and close to Christ’s birth.

You've posted many links but not a single one claims that "Cypriots descended from Minoans" by any measure. You just don't have an argument.

All I am saying is you should read this link very carefully.

http://www.therafoundation.org/articles ... yrevisited

It gives clear evidence of Minoan settlements in Cyprus and also explains the origins of the Cypro-Minoan Script.

The following map also indicates that Greece and Cyprus share a similar common ethnicity.

Given that we share the same language, customs, culture and religion, I fail to see how you could possibly argue against this.



http://www.anesi.com/rmap2.jpg

Another link that you provided also supports the evidence in the first link of this post. It states the following:

Late Bronze Age (1650-1050 BC)

During the Late Bronze Age, Cyprus came into its own as a major centre of copper production, supplying the entire Eastern Mediterranean. Settlements with urban organization grew up close to the harbours from which copper ingots and bronze artifacts were shipped to the Aegean, the Middle East, and Egypt, to be bartered or exchanged for various products and luxury goods. In the larger cities, buildings for administrative functions were erected, while a system of writing was adopted from Crete (Cypro-Minoan script), which enabled the Cypriots to cope with the increased bureaucratic need for inventories and archives. The arts flourished and the wealth that flowed into the island led to social inequalities. In the late 13th c. BC, the upheavals sweeping the Eastern Mediterranean, which are usually attributed to the so-called “Sea Peoples”, also affected Cyprus. Several cities were destroyed and waves of refugees arrived from the Aegean. Even so, the island quickly recovered from the dramatic disturbances and regained its role as an important mercantile centre.

http://www.cycladic.gr/frontoffice/port ... E&cnode=64

[Piratis]

Although Cypriots traded with Minoans and adopted their Alphabet to some extend to form their own

Yes GR, the Cypriots adopted the Minoan Script to form their own Script. And you know in what language the Cypriot Script was in? Greek. Again from a link you posted:

While the earliest examples dating from as early as 1500 BCE cannot be read, comparisons clearly show that the Cypriot syllabary seemed to have derived from Linear A, and therefore is like a sibling to Linear B. For this reason, sometimes the script at this very early stage is called Cypro-Minoan, to distinguish it from the Cypriot script used for writing Greek after the 12th century BCE.

So I ask you GR: Why did Cypriots developed the Script they adopted from the Minoans into a script for writing Greek?

The answer is that by that time the majority of the people of the island were already Greek, and they naturally developed the cypr-minoan script into a script to write their own language, Greek, and that is how the Cypriot-syllabary was created.

And then we, the Cypriots (=Greek), developed a better way to write our (=Greek) language, and developed the Greek Alphabet. Again from a link you posted:

A classics and linguistics scholar has found a bridge between the pre-alphabetic scripts of the ancient Greeks of Cyprus and the Greek alphabet -- and argues that the Mediterranean island is therefore most likely the place where the Greek alphabet was invented.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 151297.php

What this shows is that not only the Cypriots have been Greek already since then, but also that Cyprus has been an important center of development of the Greek civilization, and not just some forgotten corner of it.

[denizaksulu]

Reminded by the archaelogical artifacts found in Cyprus, I always believed that Cypriot art was unique to Cyprus. Mind ful that I am neautral in this debate, has Crete or the Greek mainland produced anything similar to those pictured.

For Khiroikitia to exist as we see from the excavations there must have been a 'previous history to these settlements. IMO there would have ben more of contemporary settlements of the Khirochitian type/period. What we would see there would be the 'richer' cities as opposed to the poorer sited which disappeared without trace. ( ie: there were more than 300 hundred 'Khirochitians').

Look at the medievel times. The poor lived in wooden houses and only the rich lived in stone/ marble dressed houses which survive till today. I guess there is not much contemporary credible evidence. As for the maps I dont think they would carry much weight. In the uk they found Egyptian and other Mediterranean artifacts. Would a map maker be justified in painting the uk in the same colours as the Levant/Egypt? Just curious.

[denizaksulu]

Although Cypriots traded with Minoans and adopted their Alphabet to some extend to form their own

Yes GR, the Cypriots adopted the Minoan Script to form their own Script. And you know in what language the Cypriot Script was in? Greek. Again from a link you posted:

While the earliest examples dating from as early as 1500 BCE cannot be read, comparisons clearly show that the Cypriot syllabary seemed to have derived from Linear A, and therefore is like a sibling to Linear B. For this reason, sometimes the script at this very early stage is called Cypro-Minoan, to distinguish it from the Cypriot script used for writing Greek after the 12th century BCE.

So I ask you GR: Why did Cypriots developed the Script they adopted from the Minoans into a script for writing Greek?

The answer is that by that time the majority of the people of the island were already Greek, and they naturally developed the cypr-minoan script into a script to write their own language, Greek, and that is how the Cypriot-syllabary was created.

And then we, the Cypriots (=Greek), developed a better way to write our (=Greek) language, and developed the Greek Alphabet. Again from a link you posted:

A classics and linguistics scholar has found a bridge between the pre-alphabetic scripts of the ancient Greeks of Cyprus and the Greek alphabet -- and argues that the Mediterranean island is therefore most likely the place where the Greek alphabet was invented.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 151297.php

What this shows is that not only the Cypriots have been Greek already since then, but also that Cyprus has been an important center of development of the Greek civilization, and not just some forgotten corner of it.

Piratis, if the Cypriots had a 'Greek' alphabet, why would they have a Cypro-Minoan script and not a Greek script. I speak English and that does not make me English. So stop calling the then Cypriots Greek.

[Paphitis]

Although Cypriots traded with Minoans and adopted their Alphabet to some extend to form their own

Yes GR, the Cypriots adopted the Minoan Script to form their own Script. And you know in what language the Cypriot Script was in? Greek. Again from a link you posted:

While the earliest examples dating from as early as 1500 BCE cannot be read, comparisons clearly show that the Cypriot syllabary seemed to have derived from Linear A, and therefore is like a sibling to Linear B. For this reason, sometimes the script at this very early stage is called Cypro-Minoan, to distinguish it from the Cypriot script used for writing Greek after the 12th century BCE.

So I ask you GR: Why did Cypriots developed the Script they adopted from the Minoans into a script for writing Greek?

The answer is that by that time the majority of the people of the island were already Greek, and they naturally developed the cypr-minoan script into a script to write their own language, Greek, and that is how the Cypriot-syllabary was created.

And then we, the Cypriots (=Greek), developed a better way to write our (=Greek) language, and developed the Greek Alphabet. Again from a link you posted:

A classics and linguistics scholar has found a bridge between the pre-alphabetic scripts of the ancient Greeks of Cyprus and the Greek alphabet -- and argues that the Mediterranean island is therefore most likely the place where the Greek alphabet was invented.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 151297.php

What this shows is that not only the Cypriots have been Greek already since then, but also that Cyprus has been an important center of development of the Greek civilization, and not just some forgotten corner of it.

Piratis, if the Cypriots had a 'Greek' alphabet, why would they have a Cypro-Minoan script and not a Greek script. I speak English and that does not make me English. So stop calling the then Cypriots Greek.

If you want undisputable evidence of Hellenic influence and settlement in Cyprus, then please visit Salamina, which is currently under Turkish occupation.

You could also accept the word of 80% of Cypriots who would tell you that they are of Greek descent. They did not just wake up 1 morning and decide to be Hellenes for no apparent reason.

[denizaksulu]

Although Cypriots traded with Minoans and adopted their Alphabet to some extend to form their own

Yes GR, the Cypriots adopted the Minoan Script to form their own Script. And you know in what language the Cypriot Script was in? Greek. Again from a link you posted:

While the earliest examples dating from as early as 1500 BCE cannot be read, comparisons clearly show that the Cypriot syllabary seemed to have derived from Linear A, and therefore is like a sibling to Linear B. For this reason, sometimes the script at this very early stage is called Cypro-Minoan, to distinguish it from the Cypriot script used for writing Greek after the 12th century BCE.

So I ask you GR: Why did Cypriots developed the Script they adopted from the Minoans into a script for writing Greek?

The answer is that by that time the majority of the people of the island were already Greek, and they naturally developed the cypr-minoan script into a script to write their own language, Greek, and that is how the Cypriot-syllabary was created.

And then we, the Cypriots (=Greek), developed a better way to write our (=Greek) language, and developed the Greek Alphabet. Again from a link you posted:

A classics and linguistics scholar has found a bridge between the pre-alphabetic scripts of the ancient Greeks of Cyprus and the Greek alphabet -- and argues that the Mediterranean island is therefore most likely the place where the Greek alphabet was invented.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 151297.php

What this shows is that not only the Cypriots have been Greek already since then, but also that Cyprus has been an important center of development of the Greek civilization, and not just some forgotten corner of it.

Piratis, if the Cypriots had a 'Greek' alphabet, why would they have a Cypro-Minoan script and not a Greek script. I speak English and that does not make me English. So stop calling the then Cypriots Greek.

If you want undisputable evidence of Hellenic influence and settlement in Cyprus, then please visit Salamina, which is currently under Turkish occupation.

You could also accept the word of 80% of Cypriots who would tell you that they are of Greek descent. They did not just wake up 1 morning and decide to be Hellenes for no apparent reason.

I am not disputing Salamina and dont get hot under the collar. I refer to the Minoan/Mycenean periods you are debating with GR.

[Piratis]

Reminded by the archaelogical artifacts found in Cyprus, I always believed that Cypriot art was unique to Cyprus. Mind ful that I am neautral in this debate, has Crete or the Greek mainland produced anything similar to those pictured.

For Khiroikitia to exist as we see from the excavations there must have been a 'previous history to these settlements. IMO there would have ben more of contemporary settlements of the Khirochitian type/period. What we would see there would be the 'richer' cities as opposed to the poorer sited which disappeared without trace. ( ie: there were more than 300 hundred 'Khirochitians').

Look at the medievel times. The poor lived in wooden houses and only the rich lived in stone/ marble dressed houses which survive till today. I guess there is not much contemporary credible evidence. As for the maps I dont think they would carry much weight. In the uk they found Egyptian and other Mediterranean artifacts. Would a map maker be justified in painting the uk in the same colours as the Levant/Egypt? Just curious.

Denis, nobody questions that pre-historic settlements existed in Cyprus just as they existed everywhere.

Here is a map of pre-historic settlements that existed in Turkey. Some of them far older that Chirokitia (Cyprus is an island, and before boats where invented it was very difficult to get on the island)

http://www.ancientanatolia.com/map01.htm

Such pre-historic settlements existed everywhere.

Now I ask you: Are those pre-historic settlements in Asia Minor Turkish?
The fact that those pre-historic settlements exist, does it make the Turks any less Turks?

Your Ethnicity is not defined by the pre-historic settlements that exist under the land you currently inhabit. Your ethnicity is defined by your identity, your language and your culture.

There is absolutely no question that the vast majority of Cypriots have been Greeks right from the beginning of the creation of Greeks. Cypriots are among those people who created and defined the what it means to be Greek. Without the Cypriots (just as without the Athenians, Cretans, Spartans etc) there would be no such thing such as a "Greek" in the way we know it today. We (along with the other Greeks) created what being Greek means. (just imagine Greeks without the Greek Alphabet for example)

[Paphitis]

Yes GR, the Cypriots adopted the Minoan Script to form their own Script. And you know in what language the Cypriot Script was in? Greek. Again from a link you posted:

That would make us more Greek than the mainland Greeks.