Cyprus-Forum.com

[Tim Drayton]

I tell you a secret, Tim! The only reason Turkey has not become chaotic yet, and the Kemalists are not turning violently against the Islamists and vice versa; or the Kurds and the Alevi that make together 30% of Turkey's population, are not turning against both of the above and starting planting bombs in every city of Turkey in order to turn tourists and foreign investors away; is only because they have ALL placed their hopes in Turkey's eventual EU accession! Once such a hope is gone, I am personally going to pick up the pop-corn and start watching everything unfolding in CNN. Not because I hate the Turkish people as such (I hate no people on earth for this matter,) but because I hate to death the Turkish establishment and its ideological foundations, for they are one of the most fake, arrogant, manipulative and immoral ones this part of the planet has seen in recent decades.

Yes, the TCs have the audacity to want and demand such a country to be our "guarantor," for god’s sake!

I wonder why Goldman Sachs, not an organisation with any kind of ideological axe to grind, takes such a different view of the long-term future of Turkey. Doesn't it at least make sense to have a game plan ready just in case they may be right, and your above wishful thinking does not come to fruition?

[DT.]

I tell you a secret, Tim! The only reason Turkey has not become chaotic yet, and the Kemalists are not turning violently against the Islamists and vice versa; or the Kurds and the Alevi that make together 30% of Turkey's population, are not turning against both of the above and starting planting bombs in every city of Turkey in order to turn tourists and foreign investors away; is only because they have ALL placed their hopes in Turkey's eventual EU accession! Once such a hope is gone, I am personally going to pick up the pop-corn and start watching everything unfolding in CNN. Not because I hate the Turkish people as such (I hate no people on earth for this matter,) but because I hate to death the Turkish establishment and its ideological foundations, for they are one of the most fake, arrogant, manipulative and immoral ones this part of the planet has seen in recent decades.

Yes, the TCs have the audacity to want and demand such a country to be our "guarantor," for god’s sake!

I wonder why Goldman Sachs, not an organisation with any kind of ideological axe to grind, takes such a different view of the long-term future of Turkey. Doesn't it at least make sense to have a game plan ready just in case they may be right, and your above wishful thinking does not come to fruition?

Not sure about their interests in Turkey but saying Goldman Sachs has no ideological axe to grind when the US Treasury Secretary is the former CEO and was instrumental in ensuring GS's survival in this crisis maybe a little farfetched. Goldman Sachs was following US govt instructions for the past 2 years to help in maintaining a weak dollar.

[Kikapu]

I tell you a secret, Tim! The only reason Turkey has not become chaotic yet, and the Kemalists are not turning violently against the Islamists and vice versa; or the Kurds and the Alevi that make together 30% of Turkey's population, are not turning against both of the above and starting planting bombs in every city of Turkey in order to turn tourists and foreign investors away; is only because they have ALL placed their hopes in Turkey's eventual EU accession! Once such a hope is gone, I am personally going to pick up the pop-corn and start watching everything unfolding in CNN. Not because I hate the Turkish people as such (I hate no people on earth for this matter,) but because I hate to death the Turkish establishment and its ideological foundations, for they are one of the most fake, arrogant, manipulative and immoral ones this part of the planet has seen in recent decades.

Yes, the TCs have the audacity to want and demand such a country to be our "guarantor," for god’s sake!

I wonder why Goldman Sachs, not an organisation with any kind of ideological axe to grind, takes such a different view of the long-term future of Turkey. Doesn't it at least make sense to have a game plan ready just in case they may be right, and your above wishful thinking does not come to fruition?

Tim,

The reality is that Turkey is a fast developing country. At the time of the invasion in 1974 it had a per-capita GDP of 928 dollars; the equivalent figure for 2006 was 7,500. That is an eight-fold increase in just over thirty years.

I am sure that most people are familiar with the predictions made in a recent report by Goldman Sachs that, by 2050, Turkey will have a per capita GDP of 60,000 dollars

These figures you gave are hardly anything to write home about. From 1974 to 2006, the inflation factor in Turkey was anywhere from 80% to about 12% today, therefore the purchasing power of the $928 GDP US Dollars in 1974 has not increased too much and it will barely keep in pace in 2050 at $60,000 GDP Dollars with today's $7,500 GDP Dollars at today's 12% inflation rate.

The most expensive petrol I have ever bought in the world so far, was in Turkey 4 years ago at $10 US Dollars a gallon. When my sister and her husband drove up from Ankara to Antalya to visit me 3 years ago in their family car, it cost them $200 US Dollars in petrol to make the round trip of about 500 miles / 800 kilometers.

[Tim Drayton]

I tell you a secret, Tim! The only reason Turkey has not become chaotic yet, and the Kemalists are not turning violently against the Islamists and vice versa; or the Kurds and the Alevi that make together 30% of Turkey's population, are not turning against both of the above and starting planting bombs in every city of Turkey in order to turn tourists and foreign investors away; is only because they have ALL placed their hopes in Turkey's eventual EU accession! Once such a hope is gone, I am personally going to pick up the pop-corn and start watching everything unfolding in CNN. Not because I hate the Turkish people as such (I hate no people on earth for this matter,) but because I hate to death the Turkish establishment and its ideological foundations, for they are one of the most fake, arrogant, manipulative and immoral ones this part of the planet has seen in recent decades.

Yes, the TCs have the audacity to want and demand such a country to be our "guarantor," for god’s sake!

I wonder why Goldman Sachs, not an organisation with any kind of ideological axe to grind, takes such a different view of the long-term future of Turkey. Doesn't it at least make sense to have a game plan ready just in case they may be right, and your above wishful thinking does not come to fruition?

Tim,

The reality is that Turkey is a fast developing country. At the time of the invasion in 1974 it had a per-capita GDP of 928 dollars; the equivalent figure for 2006 was 7,500. That is an eight-fold increase in just over thirty years.

I am sure that most people are familiar with the predictions made in a recent report by Goldman Sachs that, by 2050, Turkey will have a per capita GDP of 60,000 dollars

These figures you gave are hardly anything to write home about. From 1974 to 2006, the inflation factor in Turkey was anywhere from 80% to about 12% today, therefore the purchasing power of the $928 GDP US Dollars in 1974 has not increased too much and it will barely keep in pace in 2050 at $60,000 GDP Dollars with today's $7,500 GDP Dollars at today's 12% inflation rate.

The most expensive petrol I have ever bought in the world so far, was in Turkey 4 years ago at $10 US Dollars a gallon. When my sister and her husband drove up from Ankara to Antalya to visit me 3 years ago in their family car, it cost them $200 US Dollars in petrol to make the round trip of about 500 miles / 800 kilometers.

These figures are in US dollars not Turkish lira, so inflation in Turkish lira terms is irrelevant. Are you seriously telling me that you did not notice a huge difference in living standards in Turkey when you went there three years ago compared to what you witnessed in the sixties?

[Paphitis]

There is absolutely no way Cyprus will veto Turkey's accession to the EU. Turkey knows this too but it showed willingness back in 2003 to revise her approach to the Cyprus issue and call for solution to a problem which undoubtedly would make the path of Turkey to the EU easier.

So we should thank Turkey for her willingness to solve the Cyprus Issue? We must see the writing on the wall and accept whatever the "big players" are willing to give us. How dare we have the audacity to expect EQUALITY in a just society, and reject partition and Apartheid.

The Annan Plan offered us nothing, and hence was rejected the plan. Even some TCs who have read the plan, have now admitted that they themselves would have rejected it if they were in GC shoes.

Anyone could see that the process of Turkey's accession offered a good opportunity to get our problem moving and after an impass that lasted for three decades, we saw light at the end of the channel.

The Annan Plan was democratically rejected by 76% of the population. The electorate saw absolutely no light, but total darkness.

Yet, we could not exploit the opportunity that was staring us in the face. We showed incredible fear in dealing with the events as they unfolded. Our inherent phobias, coupled with our conservatism blinded us and here we are now, instead of learning from our mistakes we are looking for excuses to make more mistakes.

You keep saying that our past struggles for self determination were a mistake. Even today you claim that our insistence on demanding conventional Democratic and Human Rights, such as 1 man 1 vote, and a strong centrally unified state, is also a mistake. According to you, accepting all of Turkey's demands is the smartest thing we can do. After all, we must be grateful should the Turks decide to give us anything. Wee Cyprus is way too small to veto Turkey. Is that right Bananiot?

The question now is, will we allow the likes of Kifeas and Paphitis to set the tune or have the people finally woken up to the reality. Will people lend a helpful ear to the absurdities of Kifeas who claims in all earnesty that little wee Cyprus can hault the stragetic plannings of the big fish or say "enough, you have caused all the problems you could cause, we now need to move forward and secure as much as possible"?

You are hallucinating to believe the wee Cyprus will not veto Turkey should the Cyprus Problem not be solved for any reason.

France and Germany are also prepared to veto Turkey, and as Kifeas has previously stated, it would be better if they did not, as Turkey will finally realise that the biggest obstacle between her and EU membership is Cyprus.

Wee Cyprus will use its veto. There is no other choice. If Cyprus does not, then the game is up. As a member of the EU, Cyprus does have unilateral veto powers, and there will be no repercussions for exercising this right against a nation that occupies EU territory. You will also find that Cyprus has ample backing from some very big "strategic players" as well. Cyprus is not alone.

[DT.]

There is absolutely no way Cyprus will veto Turkey's accession to the EU. Turkey knows this too but it showed willingness back in 2003 to revise her approach to the Cyprus issue and call for solution to a problem which undoubtedly would make the path of Turkey to the EU easier.

So we should thank Turkey for her willingness to solve the Cyprus Issue? We must see the writing on the wall and accept whatever the "big players" are willing to give us. How dare we have the audacity to expect EQUALITY in a just society, and reject partition and Apartheid.

The Annan Plan offered us nothing, and hence was rejected the plan. Even some TCs who have read the plan, have now admitted that they themselves would have rejected it if they were in GC shoes.

Anyone could see that the process of Turkey's accession offered a good opportunity to get our problem moving and after an impass that lasted for three decades, we saw light at the end of the channel.

The Annan Plan was democratically rejected by 76% of the population. The electorate saw absolutely no light, but total darkness.

Yet, we could not exploit the opportunity that was staring us in the face. We showed incredible fear in dealing with the events as they unfolded. Our inherent phobias, coupled with our conservatism blinded us and here we are now, instead of learning from our mistakes we are looking for excuses to make more mistakes.

You keep saying that our past struggles for self determination were a mistake. Even today you claim that our insistence on demanding conventional Democratic and Human Rights, such as 1 man 1 vote, and a strong centrally unified state, is also a mistake. According to you, accepting all of Turkey's demands is the smartest thing we can do. After all, we must be grateful should the Turks decide to give us anything. Wee Cyprus is way too small to veto Turkey. Is that right Bananiot?

The question now is, will we allow the likes of Kifeas and Paphitis to set the tune or have the people finally woken up to the reality. Will people lend a helpful ear to the absurdities of Kifeas who claims in all earnesty that little wee Cyprus can hault the stragetic plannings of the big fish or say "enough, you have caused all the problems you could cause, we now need to move forward and secure as much as possible"?

You are hallucinating to believe the wee Cyprus will not veto Turkey should the Cyprus Problem not be solved for any reason.

France and Germany are also prepared to veto Turkey, and as Kifeas has previously stated, it would be better if they did not, as Turkey will finally realise that the biggest obstacle between her and EU membership is Cyprus.

Wee Cyprus will use its veto. There is no other choice. If Cyprus does not, then the game is up. As a member of the EU, Cyprus does have unilateral veto powers, and there will be no repercussions for exercising this right against a nation that occupies EU territory. You will also find that Cyprus has ample backing from some very big "strategic players" as well. Cyprus is not alone.

Even today you claim that our insistence on demanding conventional Democratic and Human Rights, such as 1 man 1 vote,

Unfortunately Paphiti, we (the president) are no longer demanding that at the talks.

[Paphitis]

There is absolutely no way Cyprus will veto Turkey's accession to the EU. Turkey knows this too but it showed willingness back in 2003 to revise her approach to the Cyprus issue and call for solution to a problem which undoubtedly would make the path of Turkey to the EU easier.

So we should thank Turkey for her willingness to solve the Cyprus Issue? We must see the writing on the wall and accept whatever the "big players" are willing to give us. How dare we have the audacity to expect EQUALITY in a just society, and reject partition and Apartheid.

The Annan Plan offered us nothing, and hence was rejected the plan. Even some TCs who have read the plan, have now admitted that they themselves would have rejected it if they were in GC shoes.

Anyone could see that the process of Turkey's accession offered a good opportunity to get our problem moving and after an impass that lasted for three decades, we saw light at the end of the channel.

The Annan Plan was democratically rejected by 76% of the population. The electorate saw absolutely no light, but total darkness.

Yet, we could not exploit the opportunity that was staring us in the face. We showed incredible fear in dealing with the events as they unfolded. Our inherent phobias, coupled with our conservatism blinded us and here we are now, instead of learning from our mistakes we are looking for excuses to make more mistakes.

You keep saying that our past struggles for self determination were a mistake. Even today you claim that our insistence on demanding conventional Democratic and Human Rights, such as 1 man 1 vote, and a strong centrally unified state, is also a mistake. According to you, accepting all of Turkey's demands is the smartest thing we can do. After all, we must be grateful should the Turks decide to give us anything. Wee Cyprus is way too small to veto Turkey. Is that right Bananiot?

The question now is, will we allow the likes of Kifeas and Paphitis to set the tune or have the people finally woken up to the reality. Will people lend a helpful ear to the absurdities of Kifeas who claims in all earnesty that little wee Cyprus can hault the stragetic plannings of the big fish or say "enough, you have caused all the problems you could cause, we now need to move forward and secure as much as possible"?

You are hallucinating to believe the wee Cyprus will not veto Turkey should the Cyprus Problem not be solved for any reason.

France and Germany are also prepared to veto Turkey, and as Kifeas has previously stated, it would be better if they did not, as Turkey will finally realise that the biggest obstacle between her and EU membership is Cyprus.

Wee Cyprus will use its veto. There is no other choice. If Cyprus does not, then the game is up. As a member of the EU, Cyprus does have unilateral veto powers, and there will be no repercussions for exercising this right against a nation that occupies EU territory. You will also find that Cyprus has ample backing from some very big "strategic players" as well. Cyprus is not alone.

Even today you claim that our insistence on demanding conventional Democratic and Human Rights, such as 1 man 1 vote,

Unfortunately Paphiti, we (the president) are no longer demanding that at the talks.

This may be true.

What is certain is that any proposed peace plan will be put to a referendum, and YOU the voter will have your say. Assuming it will get that far and the talks do not collapse. If they do collapse, then anything that has been agreed to in principle, will become null and void. I am pretty certain President X stated this some time ago.

[Tim Drayton]

A FAIRY STORY

Little Cyprus waves her magic wand (veto) and the big bad wolf (Turkey) disappears in a puff of smoke. Everybody lives happily ever after.

THE END

[Bananiot]

Kifeas wrote

You know why we wanted Turkey to obtain an EU accession date? Because in this way we would have allowed Turkey to enter into the “anteroom” of the EU, and become encouraged to believe and hope that once it becomes a normal civilized nation that will respect human rights and international law, its EU accession may possibly become a reality. It is easier to control Turkey, once it has entered EU’s front yard, rather than having it completely shut out! Once this occurred, there was no need for such a remark to be included in any future progress reports, that is why we made sure it was taken out!

The above is the silliest piece of writing I have ever seen. I think it deserves a Darwin Award. I think Oracle, who might agree with this but now has problems of a different nature with the author, can put forward the name of Kifeas to the Darwin Awards Committee. He will win hands down and he will make us bananiots very proud indeed.

[Paphitis]

A FAIRY STORY

Little Cyprus waves her magic wand (veto) and the big bad wolf (Turkey) disappears in a puff of smoke. Everybody lives happily ever after.

THE END

Tim, you are being very silly.

Cyprus will reserve the right to veto Turkey's EU entry, if Turkey does not behave like a reformed international citizen, and change her policy on Cyprus which would lead to a just and viable solution.

Perhaps you could explain to us all, how it is possible for Turkey to be admitted into the EU, whilst still illegally occupying EU territory and ignoring countless UN resolutions calling for the withdrawal of Turkish Troops?

You can also explain to us how it can be possible for Turkey to be admitted into the EU, whilst still not bilaterally recognising an existing EU member or allowing for the free movement of Cypriot registered vessels and aircraft into her ports and airspace?

To think that Turkey will achieve EU entry whilst contravening all of the above is ludicrous, and you need to get serious.

You should also read the Turkey's progress report that was posted earlier by Kifeas.

The veto is a fundamental right of each and every EU member, and this right can not be compromised. Even Malta can veto Turkey if it wanted to. You may also be surprised as to who else will be backing Cyprus and her stance should we choose to veto Turkey's entry.

http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/pdf/pre ... ort_en.pdf