Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

Rubbish Tim, rubbish!!!

We can and will perfectly veto Turkey's accession, for the simple fact that (a.) it refuses to recognize another EU member state, and (b.) for the continuation of the illegal occupation of another EU member state.

As it is well known, every new member state, in order to accede the EU, must receive the approval of each and every EU member state government, and each and every EU member state parliament. Unless these happen, no new country may accede the EU. What will you do? Will you take the hand of the RoC members of parliament, squeeze it and force it vote or sign Turkey's EU accession? Will you send the British navy and air force to blockade Cyprus? Will you ask Britain to threaten us with a nuclear bombing? Nothing of all these will possibly work, as long as the above situation continues!

What else will Britain do? Will it recognize, or threaten to recognize the "TRNC?" It is illegal and not possible to do so, under the EU aqcui, because it will violate the EU treaty of accession, as well as the UN resolutions! What else? Will Britain try to get the rest of the EU member states to change the treaty of accession? It is not possible because it requires every EU member state's signature, including ours! Will Britain try to pass a new UN SC resolution, eradicating the existing one, in order to facilitate "TRNC" recognition? Not possible either! If the Russians will not veto it, the French will do, and if the French won't, the Chinese will do!

There is nothing that can be done, Tim, and rest sure we will veto Turkey's EU accession, if it doesn't change up its bloody primitive mind!

I beg to differ. It is abundantly clear that Turkey cannot accede to the EU until the Cyprus problem is solved. On the other hand, what can Cyprus veto? Not the 1963 Association Agreement which provides in principle that Turkey may one day become a member. All that is possible is to veto Turkey's accession at any one point in time, but not the general principle that one day, if she meets all the necessary conditions, she may accede. The argument that somehow Cyprus can ensure that Europe firmly slams the door in Turkey's face is ludicrous. Europe will probably continue the policy of keeping Turkey at arms length without entirely dashing all hope of eventual membership. If anything, the Cyprus problem is grist to the mill in this tactic. Furthermore, the suggestion that Turkey, already party to a customs union with the EU, will collapse if rejected by the EU is not borne out by a hard look at the performance of the Turkish economy over the past few decades. I am sorry that you think that I am simply a mouthpiece for British propaganda. Actually I happen to care for the future of this country that I have chosen to make my home and am concerned about the long-term threat that is posed by Turkey, a threat that requires to be countered with more than simple-minded wishful thinking.

Tim, what you are simply doing now, is to split and re-split hairs! If the occupation of Cyprus ends and Turkey recognizes the RoC, then Cyprus has already pledged that it will favor Turkey's accession! Therefore, all this discussion that you have started, is totally and completely meaningless! Furthermore, if you want to know the truth, we (GCs) do not like to see France and Germany put any other obstacles in front of Turkey's accession, and we disagree with Sargozy's and Merkel's attitude! You know why? Because we want Turkey to get the message, round and square, and digest it, that the only obstacle in its EU accession is the Cyprus issue and its illegal occupation of it, plus its own need to reform, become more democratic and stop violating the human and cultural rights of its own people!

[Kifeas]

Remember 1992 when Mitsotakis, for the first time, did not use the Greek veto on Turkish customs union. In an interview he explained his move and said he would no longer allow EU members to hide behind Greece's objections. As soon as the Greek veto was gone all the rest had to reveal themeselves and all kinds of conditions were attached to the deal.

The same holds true here. Cyprus does not have to use its veto. Cyprus has some very specific problems with Turkey, not a general anti Turkish attitude. In contrast, the rest of the EU, even the British who like to pretend they champion Turkish membership, have some very broad ojections to Turkish EU entry.

And???

[Tim Drayton]

Rubbish Tim, rubbish!!!

We can and will perfectly veto Turkey's accession, for the simple fact that (a.) it refuses to recognize another EU member state, and (b.) for the continuation of the illegal occupation of another EU member state.

As it is well known, every new member state, in order to accede the EU, must receive the approval of each and every EU member state government, and each and every EU member state parliament. Unless these happen, no new country may accede the EU. What will you do? Will you take the hand of the RoC members of parliament, squeeze it and force it vote or sign Turkey's EU accession? Will you send the British navy and air force to blockade Cyprus? Will you ask Britain to threaten us with a nuclear bombing? Nothing of all these will possibly work, as long as the above situation continues!

What else will Britain do? Will it recognize, or threaten to recognize the "TRNC?" It is illegal and not possible to do so, under the EU aqcui, because it will violate the EU treaty of accession, as well as the UN resolutions! What else? Will Britain try to get the rest of the EU member states to change the treaty of accession? It is not possible because it requires every EU member state's signature, including ours! Will Britain try to pass a new UN SC resolution, eradicating the existing one, in order to facilitate "TRNC" recognition? Not possible either! If the Russians will not veto it, the French will do, and if the French won't, the Chinese will do!

There is nothing that can be done, Tim, and rest sure we will veto Turkey's EU accession, if it doesn't change up its bloody primitive mind!

I beg to differ. It is abundantly clear that Turkey cannot accede to the EU until the Cyprus problem is solved. On the other hand, what can Cyprus veto? Not the 1963 Association Agreement which provides in principle that Turkey may one day become a member. All that is possible is to veto Turkey's accession at any one point in time, but not the general principle that one day, if she meets all the necessary conditions, she may accede. The argument that somehow Cyprus can ensure that Europe firmly slams the door in Turkey's face is ludicrous. Europe will probably continue the policy of keeping Turkey at arms length without entirely dashing all hope of eventual membership. If anything, the Cyprus problem is grist to the mill in this tactic. Furthermore, the suggestion that Turkey, already party to a customs union with the EU, will collapse if rejected by the EU is not borne out by a hard look at the performance of the Turkish economy over the past few decades. I am sorry that you think that I am simply a mouthpiece for British propaganda. Actually I happen to care for the future of this country that I have chosen to make my home and am concerned about the long-term threat that is posed by Turkey, a threat that requires to be countered with more than simple-minded wishful thinking.

Tim, what you are simply doing now, is to split and re-split hairs! If the occupation of Cyprus ends and Turkey recognizes the RoC, then Cyprus has already pledged that it will favor Turkey's accession! Therefore, all this discussion that you have started, is totally and completely meaningless!

It is also possible that Turkey will be left in limbo for a long time to come, its application neither accepted nor rejected. I think this would suit Europe's interests very well. Of course Cyprus can prevent Turkey's ultimate accession as long as part of Cyprus remains occupied. On the other hand, Cyprus cannot absolutely reject Turkey's status as a candidate member. The status quo on the island could quite conceivably continue indefinitely for as long as Turkey is left waiting in the wings by the EU, and in the meantime Turkey may gain in strength as a regional power and the demographic changes that have been brought about in the north of Cyprus can only work in Turkey's favour. All I am saying is that the power of veto should not be seen as some kind of magic wand which in itself will solve the problem.

[Nikitas]

And?? Kifeas asks

And Cyprus does not have to use its veto because several other EU member states will do so much before it comes down to Cyprus using it.

Germany and France both have stressed their opposition to full membership for Turkey. They are the leading members right now. There is no way on earth that the architects of the EU will allow any incoming state to have the largest number of EU commissioners and MEPs.

[Nikitas]

Tim said:

"Turkey may gain in strength as a regional power and the demographic changes that have been brought about in the north of Cyprus can only work in Turkey's favour. "

By things working out in Turkey's favor would mean that at some point it would officially annexe the north and this would be accepted and recognised by the international community.

This idea is simply NOT going to work. Annexing the north would give Turkey a huge chunk of the easter Mediterranean both as part of its territorial waters and as part of the continental shelf and Exclusive Economic Zone. No neighboring country will sit for that kind of territorial aggrandisement and neither will the Americans who have a psychosis with the freedom of the seas.

We will have to wait and see how the current financial crisis will affect Turkey. The majority of foreign investment in Turkey in recent years was the manufacturing sector in order to capitalise on low wages, no environmental controls and zero worker protection. This kind of investment is quick to quit when the going gets tough. So far there is very little original investment which truly adds value to the Turkish economy.

[Tim Drayton]

Germany and France both have stressed their opposition to full membership for Turkey.

I note with interest that Sarkozy and Merkel, previously staunch opponents of Turkish EU accession, have been strangely silent on the question of Turkey following this summer's events in Georgia, during which time they both came out in support of Sakaashvili. I think these two phenomena are closely related and that concerns over Europe's energy security provide the explanation.

[Nikitas]

Energy security is one thing. Allowing a volatile nation with a myriad of internal problems to have the largest contingent in the European Parliament and the Commission is another matter altogether. For that to happen the new applicant will have to prove that it is European to the core, something that Turkey is not going to be able to do for a long time.

[Tim Drayton]

Energy security is one thing. Allowing a volatile nation with a myriad of internal problems to have the largest contingent in the European Parliament and the Commission is another matter altogether. For that to happen the new applicant will have to prove that it is European to the core, something that Turkey is not going to be able to do for a long time.

Precisely. As I keep saying, it suits Europe fine to keep Turkey at arms length, and the cherished Cyprus veto should be appraised in that light.

[Kifeas]

Rubbish Tim, rubbish!!!

We can and will perfectly veto Turkey's accession, for the simple fact that (a.) it refuses to recognize another EU member state, and (b.) for the continuation of the illegal occupation of another EU member state.

As it is well known, every new member state, in order to accede the EU, must receive the approval of each and every EU member state government, and each and every EU member state parliament. Unless these happen, no new country may accede the EU. What will you do? Will you take the hand of the RoC members of parliament, squeeze it and force it vote or sign Turkey's EU accession? Will you send the British navy and air force to blockade Cyprus? Will you ask Britain to threaten us with a nuclear bombing? Nothing of all these will possibly work, as long as the above situation continues!

What else will Britain do? Will it recognize, or threaten to recognize the "TRNC?" It is illegal and not possible to do so, under the EU aqcui, because it will violate the EU treaty of accession, as well as the UN resolutions! What else? Will Britain try to get the rest of the EU member states to change the treaty of accession? It is not possible because it requires every EU member state's signature, including ours! Will Britain try to pass a new UN SC resolution, eradicating the existing one, in order to facilitate "TRNC" recognition? Not possible either! If the Russians will not veto it, the French will do, and if the French won't, the Chinese will do!

There is nothing that can be done, Tim, and rest sure we will veto Turkey's EU accession, if it doesn't change up its bloody primitive mind!

I beg to differ. It is abundantly clear that Turkey cannot accede to the EU until the Cyprus problem is solved. On the other hand, what can Cyprus veto? Not the 1963 Association Agreement which provides in principle that Turkey may one day become a member. All that is possible is to veto Turkey's accession at any one point in time, but not the general principle that one day, if she meets all the necessary conditions, she may accede. The argument that somehow Cyprus can ensure that Europe firmly slams the door in Turkey's face is ludicrous. Europe will probably continue the policy of keeping Turkey at arms length without entirely dashing all hope of eventual membership. If anything, the Cyprus problem is grist to the mill in this tactic. Furthermore, the suggestion that Turkey, already party to a customs union with the EU, will collapse if rejected by the EU is not borne out by a hard look at the performance of the Turkish economy over the past few decades. I am sorry that you think that I am simply a mouthpiece for British propaganda. Actually I happen to care for the future of this country that I have chosen to make my home and am concerned about the long-term threat that is posed by Turkey, a threat that requires to be countered with more than simple-minded wishful thinking.

Tim, what you are simply doing now, is to split and re-split hairs! If the occupation of Cyprus ends and Turkey recognizes the RoC, then Cyprus has already pledged that it will favor Turkey's accession! Therefore, all this discussion that you have started, is totally and completely meaningless!

It is also possible that Turkey will be left in limbo for a long time to come, its application neither accepted nor rejected. I think this would suit Europe's interests very well. Of course Cyprus can prevent Turkey's ultimate accession as long as part of Cyprus remains occupied. On the other hand, Cyprus cannot absolutely reject Turkey's status as a candidate member. The status quo on the island could quite conceivably continue indefinitely for as long as Turkey is left waiting in the wings by the EU, and in the meantime Turkey may gain in strength as a regional power and the demographic changes that have been brought about in the north of Cyprus can only work in Turkey's favour. All I am saying is that the power of veto should not be seen as some kind of magic wand which in itself will solve the problem.

I tell you a secret, Tim! The only reason Turkey has not become chaotic yet, and the Kemalists are not turning violently against the Islamists and vice versa; or the Kurds and the Alevi that make together 30% of Turkey's population, are not turning against both of the above and starting planting bombs in every city of Turkey in order to turn tourists and foreign investors away; is only because they have ALL placed their hopes in Turkey's eventual EU accession! Once such a hope is gone, I am personally going to pick up the pop-corn and start watching everything unfolding in CNN. Not because I hate the Turkish people as such (I hate no people on earth for this matter,) but because I hate to death the Turkish establishment and its ideological foundations, for they are one of the most fake, arrogant, manipulative and immoral ones this part of the planet has seen in recent decades.

Yes, the TCs have the audacity to want and demand such a country to be our "guarantor," for god’s sake!

[Kifeas]

Germany and France both have stressed their opposition to full membership for Turkey.

I note with interest that Sarkozy and Merkel, previously staunch opponents of Turkish EU accession, have been strangely silent on the question of Turkey following this summer's events in Georgia, during which time they both came out in support of Sakaashvili. I think these two phenomena are closely related and that concerns over Europe's energy security provide the explanation.

It is good news that Sarkozy and Merkel have become silent on the issue of Turkey's acession!