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Halting Turkey's EU Bid

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Viewpoint » Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:07 am

humanist wrote:VP
becasue you are not being very clear, how would you have the balance in the upper house? and how would the TC community have any chance of getting in a TC president when 80% of the population is GC?


Whilst the TC's and their current representatives are proposing a division of Cyprus and Cypriot people you don't stand a chance. However in a united unitary Federal republic of Cyprus where there is a united socialist party, liberal party, right wing party, left wing party, Republican party to give some examples where members of those aprties comprise of both TC's and GC's alike I think that people will vote for the party that best represents their interests and ideologies and in that case you will find that one day a TC will be voted in at the presidential level and then we can all say that Cyprus is a truly united nation.

However, I cannot see any visionary TC's and not Talat at all who are able to bring people together.


neither community will today vote for a mixed party because we do not have that political maturity, people will still vote along ethnic lines, this can only happen after a number of years where we all learn to trust each other by our actions and living the results. Plus can ou ban political parties becuase of their etnic origins, I believe you cannot and for that reason a GC political party can easily be formed and the GC pulic will vote for them, there is noway you can stop this from happening. For a TC leader to elected he would first have to be elected by hisparty which would be mixed and then an electorate which is 80% GC, a toss between a mixed party and one purely GC with similar political views I am 100% certain the GCs would vote for the later which would put us in a position of no representation and great danger.
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Postby Get Real! » Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:11 am

Viewpoint wrote:I am 100% certain the GCs would vote for the later which would put us in a position of no representation and great danger.

For Pete's sake what difference does it make who the president is if its the number of seats in parliament that pass laws. :roll:
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Postby Viewpoint » Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:14 am

Get Real! wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:I am 100% certain the GCs would vote for the later which would put us in a position of no representation and great danger.

For Pete's sake what difference does it make who the president is if its the number of seats in parliament that pass laws. :roll:


So you would vote for a TC? would the general GC public? doubt it some how this cannot be left to chance thats why a rotating system is being discussed as neither side trusts the other.
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Postby Get Real! » Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:20 am

Viewpoint wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:I am 100% certain the GCs would vote for the later which would put us in a position of no representation and great danger.

For Pete's sake what difference does it make who the president is if its the number of seats in parliament that pass laws. :roll:


So you would vote for a TC? would the general GC public? doubt it some how this cannot be left to chance thats why a rotating system is being discussed as neither side trusts the other.

I'd vote for a decent guy in the center who preserves old fashioned values without hampering progress and I couldn't care less what his name is. ie: Karoyian the Armenian will definitely get my vote if he runs against Marcos Kyprianou a GC, and Christofias a GC, at the next election.
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Postby Viewpoint » Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:24 am

Get Real! wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:I am 100% certain the GCs would vote for the later which would put us in a position of no representation and great danger.

For Pete's sake what difference does it make who the president is if its the number of seats in parliament that pass laws. :roll:


So you would vote for a TC? would the general GC public? doubt it some how this cannot be left to chance thats why a rotating system is being discussed as neither side trusts the other.

I'd vote for a decent guy in the center who preserves old fashioned values without hampering progress and I couldn't care less what his name is. ie: Karoyian the Armenian will definitely get my vote if he runs against Marcos Kyprianou a GC, and Christofias a GC, at the next election.


Good to hear but I still do not trust the GC general public that why safeguards are required.
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Postby humanist » Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:24 am

VP
neither community will today vote for a mixed party because we do not have that political maturity, people will still vote along ethnic lines, this can only happen after a number of years where we all learn to trust each other by our actions and living the results. Plus can ou ban political parties becuase of their etnic origins, I believe you cannot and for that reason a GC political party can easily be formed and the GC pulic will vote for them, there is noway you can stop this from happening. For a TC leader to elected he would first have to be elected by hisparty which would be mixed and then an electorate which is 80% GC, a toss between a mixed party and one purely GC with similar political views I am 100% certain the GCs would vote for the later which would put us in a position of no representation and great danger.


VP I disagree, I think if educated people with the willingess to unite their country come together we will have the political maturity. There is no other country in the world that I can think of at this moment that has political parties based on ethnic lines. Sure there are many that would have parties that are primarily made up of certain ethnic groups that others.

Perhaps we can achieve a place in our thinking that within the party lines we have policies to ensure that TC's get a fair go and are given opportunties to stand for Pesidency.
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Postby Viewpoint » Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:26 am

humanist wrote:VP
neither community will today vote for a mixed party because we do not have that political maturity, people will still vote along ethnic lines, this can only happen after a number of years where we all learn to trust each other by our actions and living the results. Plus can ou ban political parties becuase of their etnic origins, I believe you cannot and for that reason a GC political party can easily be formed and the GC pulic will vote for them, there is noway you can stop this from happening. For a TC leader to elected he would first have to be elected by hisparty which would be mixed and then an electorate which is 80% GC, a toss between a mixed party and one purely GC with similar political views I am 100% certain the GCs would vote for the later which would put us in a position of no representation and great danger.


VP I disagree, I think if educated people with the willingess to unite their country come together we will have the political maturity. There is no other country in the world that I can think of at this moment that has political parties based on ethnic lines. Sure there are many that would have parties that are primarily made up of certain ethnic groups that others.

Perhaps we can achieve a place in our thinking that within the party lines we have policies to ensure that TC's get a fair go and are given opportunties to stand for Pesidency.


The utopia you talk about is but a dream for most Cypriots as this political maturity has not developedand things cannot be left to chance especially for us as we are the community that can lose out heavily.
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Postby humanist » Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:50 am

It's difficult to take TC's seriously when they say one thing to the UN and another with Turkey. I do not trust TC's administration.


Cicek says Cyprus national cause of Turkey
Prime Minister Ferdi Sabit Soyer of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC) said on Thursday that TRNC was willing for a solution in Cyprus problem.
Friday, 14 November 2008 07:45
"Turkish Cypriot people will never retreat from its equality and Turkey's guarantor status," Soyer said while speaking at a meeting with Turkish State Minister & Deputy Prime Minister Cemil Cicek.

Soyer said Cicek's visit was an indication of support of Turkey to Turkish Cypriots in its struggle to exist.

TRNC Prime Minister said Turkish state was advocating a solution including equality of the Turkish Cypriot people under the roof of a partnership state.

He said Greek Cypriot political leadership should act being aware of these facts.

Cicek pointed to TRNC's success achieved in many areas, noting that there was a functioning democracy in TRNC.

Referring to ongoing talks in Cyprus, Cicek said, "Cyprus is a national cause for Turkey. Whichever government comes to power in Turkey, this point of view will not change."

Hope

Also, Parliament Speaker Fatma Ekenoglu of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC) said on Thursday Turkish Cypriots were endeavoring for a bi-zonal, bi-federal and a lasting solution based on political equality.

Speaking at a meeting with Cicek, Ekenoglu said Turkish Cypriots were also trying to prepare an economy that stands on its feet.

Ekenoglu said Turkey's election as a non-permanent member of UN Security Council boosted hopes in TRNC.

Cicek is visiting TRNC to attend ceremonies to mark the 25th anniversary of foundation of TRNC.

Cyprus issue

Cyprus joined the EU as a divided island when Greek Cypriots in the South rejected the UN reunification plan in twin referendums in 2004 even though the Turkish Cypriots in the north overwhelmingly supported it. The promise made by EU foreign ministers before the referendums to end the isolation of the Turkish Cypriots and establish direct trade with North Cyprus remains unfulfilled.

Gaining independence from the UK in 1960, Cyprus became a bi-communal Republic where Greek and Turkish Cypriot constituent communities would share power guaranteed by the UK, Turkey and Greece. However, reluctant to share power and pursuing a policy of Enosis (Union) with Greece, Greek Cypriots soon expelled Turkish Cypriots from power and terrorised and ghettoised them.

Decades long armed attacks on the defenseless Turkish Cypriots culminated in 1974 when an Athens-backed Greek Cypriot military coup on the island led to Turkey's military intervention. Although the Republic of Cyprus as described in the 1959 agreements is no longer there, Greek Cypriots continue to enjoy this title and international recognition while the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, a fully democratic government representing Turkish Cypriots, still suffers under an unfair political and economic blockade.
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Postby Tim Drayton » Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:40 pm

The image of David defeating Goliath is an enduring one. How nice to dream that one day Cyprus will exercise its veto and Europe will shut its doors on Turkey, reducing that nation to starvation and thus bringing about its extinction. With Turkey removed from the scene, the Cyprus problem will resolve itself.

Dream on. The reality is that Turkey is a fast developing country. At the time of the invasion in 1974 it had a per-capita GDP of 928 dollars; the equivalent figure for 2006 was 7,500. That is an eight-fold increase in just over thirty years. This is a country which is developing fast. Sure, Turkey is seriously in debt and will be hit hard by the current global crisis. However, I well remember the financial crisis that hit Turkey in January/February 1994. In a period of about three weeks the stock exchange index fell from 20,000 to 4,000 and the currency was devalued by over 300%. Overnight interest rates shot up to several thousand percent on an annual basis, and this was the longest period that anybody was prepared to lend in the local currency. This appeared to be a crisis of a magnitude that would ruin the country. Yet a few months down the line everything was back on track and growth had resumed. I concluded then that Turkey was an unsinkable ship and, if anything, the country is resting on much more secure economic foundations than it was then. When the world economy picks up again, Turkey will be back bigger and stronger than ever. I am sure that most people are familiar with the predictions made in a recent report by Goldman Sachs that, by 2050, Turkey will have a per capita GDP of 60,000 dollars and will have the third-largest economy in Europe after Russia and Britain. I find some of the methodology in this report suspect – it is based on extrapolating current trends and on the assumption that having a youthful population is one of the key motors of economic development. Even so, anybody who really cares about the future of Cyprus had better at least factor in the possibility that one day the island’s largest neighbour will have an economy larger than that of Italy or France.

Coming to the power of veto, what actually is tiny Cyprus going to veto? Can Cyprus veto the 1963 Association Agreement envisaging close cooperation between Turkey and the then EEC leading up to an eventual customs union and the prospect of full membership, provided that the necessary conditions are met? The agreement introducing such a customs union in 1995? I don’t think so. Close cooperation between the EU and Turkey is a fact, underpinned by agreements that were signed long before Cyprus acceded. Europe cannot and will not shut her door on such a geopolitically important neighbour. The best that Europe can do, if she has no stomach for admitting Turkey, is to play for time and keep the latter waiting. All that tiny Cyprus can do is put a little stick in the spokes and slow the process down slightly. Turkey will then either keep trying to get in, or give up and turn its attentions elsewhere. I do not think that EU membership is the huge deal for Turkey that some would like to make out. While the majority of Turks still support EU membership, public opinion surveys show that this support is declining. Turkey will do fine on the fringes of the EU benefiting from the degree of integration afforded by the customs union.

It is time that people stopped putting their heads in the sand and engaging in wishful thinking. The probability is that over the next few decades Cyprus’s closest geographic neighbour will grow in strength and exercise greater clout in the region. This poses both opportunities and threats for Cyprus. A continuation of the status quo will enable Turkey to consolidate and exploit the foothold that it has on the island. On the other hand, a united Cyprus that is able to develop good relations with Turkey could benefit greatly from the industrial expansion that is taking place there. There is no reason, for example, why a portion of Turkish imports and exports could not pass through Limassol container port or be carried on Cyprus-flagged ships.
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Postby Kifeas » Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:09 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:The image of David defeating Goliath is an enduring one. How nice to dream that one day Cyprus will exercise its veto and Europe will shut its doors on Turkey, reducing that nation to starvation and thus bringing about its extinction. With Turkey removed from the scene, the Cyprus problem will resolve itself.

Dream on. The reality is that Turkey is a fast developing country. At the time of the invasion in 1974 it had a per-capita GDP of 928 dollars; the equivalent figure for 2006 was 7,500. That is an eight-fold increase in just over thirty years. This is a country which is developing fast. Sure, Turkey is seriously in debt and will be hit hard by the current global crisis. However, I well remember the financial crisis that hit Turkey in January/February 1994. In a period of about three weeks the stock exchange index fell from 20,000 to 4,000 and the currency was devalued by over 300%. Overnight interest rates shot up to several thousand percent on an annual basis, and this was the longest period that anybody was prepared to lend in the local currency. This appeared to be a crisis of a magnitude that would ruin the country. Yet a few months down the line everything was back on track and growth had resumed. I concluded then that Turkey was an unsinkable ship and, if anything, the country is resting on much more secure economic foundations than it was then. When the world economy picks up again, Turkey will be back bigger and stronger than ever. I am sure that most people are familiar with the predictions made in a recent report by Goldman Sachs that, by 2050, Turkey will have a per capita GDP of 60,000 dollars and will have the third-largest economy in Europe after Russia and Britain. I find some of the methodology in this report suspect – it is based on extrapolating current trends and on the assumption that having a youthful population is one of the key motors of economic development. Even so, anybody who really cares about the future of Cyprus had better at least factor in the possibility that one day the island’s largest neighbour will have an economy larger than that of Italy or France.

Coming to the power of veto, what actually is tiny Cyprus going to veto? Can Cyprus veto the 1963 Association Agreement envisaging close cooperation between Turkey and the then EEC leading up to an eventual customs union and the prospect of full membership, provided that the necessary conditions are met? The agreement introducing such a customs union in 1995? I don’t think so. Close cooperation between the EU and Turkey is a fact, underpinned by agreements that were signed long before Cyprus acceded. Europe cannot and will not shut her door on such a geopolitically important neighbour. The best that Europe can do, if she has no stomach for admitting Turkey, is to play for time and keep the latter waiting. All that tiny Cyprus can do is put a little stick in the spokes and slow the process down slightly. Turkey will then either keep trying to get in, or give up and turn its attentions elsewhere. I do not think that EU membership is the huge deal for Turkey that some would like to make out. While the majority of Turks still support EU membership, public opinion surveys show that this support is declining. Turkey will do fine on the fringes of the EU benefiting from the degree of integration afforded by the customs union.

It is time that people stopped putting their heads in the sand and engaging in wishful thinking. The probability is that over the next few decades Cyprus’s closest geographic neighbour will grow in strength and exercise greater clout in the region. This poses both opportunities and threats for Cyprus. A continuation of the status quo will enable Turkey to consolidate and exploit the foothold that it has on the island. On the other hand, a united Cyprus that is able to develop good relations with Turkey could benefit greatly from the industrial expansion that is taking place there. There is no reason, for example, why a portion of Turkish imports and exports could not pass through Limassol container port or be carried on Cyprus-flagged ships.


Rubbish Tim, rubbish!!!

We can and will perfectly veto Turkey's accession, for the simple fact that (a.) it refuses to recognize another EU member state, and (b.) for the continuation of the illegal occupation of another EU member state.

As it is well known, every new member state, in order to accede the EU, must receive the approval of each and every EU member state government, and each and every EU member state parliament. Unless these happen, no new country may accede the EU. What will you do? Will you take the hand of the RoC members of parliament, squeeze it and force it vote or sign Turkey's EU accession? Will you send the British navy and air force to blockade Cyprus? Will you ask Britain to threaten us with a nuclear bombing? Nothing of all these will possibly work, as long as the above situation continues!

What else will Britain do? Will it recognize, or threaten to recognize the "TRNC?" It is illegal and not possible to do so, under the EU aqcui, because it will violate the EU treaty of accession, as well as the UN resolutions! What else? Will Britain try to get the rest of the EU member states to change the treaty of accession? It is not possible because it requires every EU member state's signature, including ours! Will Britain try to pass a new UN SC resolution, eradicating the existing one, in order to facilitate "TRNC" recognition? Not possible either! If the Russians will not veto it, the French will do, and if the French won't, the Chinese will do!

There is nothing that can be done, Tim, and rest sure we will veto Turkey's EU accession, if it doesn't change up its bloody primitive mind!
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