Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

BigOz, since you call the cease-fire line between the area of Cyprus that Turkey illegally occupies and the rest of Cyprus, a “border between the GCs and TCs,” and since you are a man of superior knowledge and wisdom; can you please explain to me how it comes and I, together with another 200,000 Greek Cypriots –a number of people larger than the entire TC community, originated for thousands of years back -and used to live up until 1974, behind the “boarder” separating GCs and TCs?

If it is a “boarder” separating Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots, how it comes and behind this “TC" area there are more than 500 Christian Orthodox Churches –some of which more than 1,500 years old, and only less than 50 mosques –most of which are only a couple of decades old? How it comes and Salamis, a 2000 year old landmark, is full of ancient Greek language engravings around its ruined walls and floors? Is it because the Turkish Cypriot inhabitants north and behind this “boarder,” used to be Christians that once spoke Greek, and then all of suddenly changed their language to Turkish and started converting to Islam, and started building mosques instead of churches? I am only asking to be enlightened by you, because I consider you a “know it all” wise man!

[Viewpoint]

These remnants of the past are scaterred all over the world Cyprus is no different, live with it or be reasonable and accept us as 2 equal communities with rights to demand protection and an effective say in our own future and the running of this country.

[Get Real!]

These remnants of the past are scaterred all over the world Cyprus is no different, live with it or be reasonable and accept us as 2 equal communities with rights to demand protection and an effective say in our own future and the running of this country.

There's nothing in it for the GCs; when you remove all the incentives you're left with bollocks...

[Piratis]

These remnants of the past are scaterred all over the world Cyprus is no different, live with it or be reasonable and accept us as 2 equal communities with rights to demand protection and an effective say in our own future and the running of this country.

You are right VP, the remnants of colonial past are spread all over the world. And nowhere now there is division between remnants and non remnants. Everybody is equal citizen of the free democratic country, one person one vote.

The last division between colonial remnants and native population was the apartheid of South Africa, and it seems you want to bring that system to Cyprus because that would suit you best.

[bigOz]

BigOz, since you call the cease-fire line between the area of Cyprus that Turkey illegally occupies and the rest of Cyprus, a “border between the GCs and TCs,” and since you are a man of superior knowledge and wisdom; can you please explain to me how it comes and I, together with another 200,000 Greek Cypriots –a number of people larger than the entire TC community, originated for thousands of years back -and used to live up until 1974, behind the “boarder” separating GCs and TCs?

If it is a “boarder” separating Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots, how it comes and behind this “TC" area there are more than 500 Christian Orthodox Churches –some of which more than 1,500 years old, and only less than 50 mosques –most of which are only a couple of decades old? How it comes and Salamis, a 2000 year old landmark, is full of ancient Greek language engravings around its ruined walls and floors? Is it because the Turkish Cypriot inhabitants north and behind this “boarder,” used to be Christians that once spoke Greek, and then all of suddenly changed their language to Turkish and started converting to Islam, and started building mosques instead of churches? I am only asking to be enlightened by you, because I consider you a “know it all” wise man!

I have not got a clue as to whether the Byzantines built 50 or 500 churches (Christianity did not exist during the Hellenic era of Cyprus). I do not agree with the use of quotation marks around "know it all" since it implies I stated or claimed any such thing myself! I did say I can back up what I write as the truth, unlike many in this forum who express their feelings or beliefs rather than facts. If that upsets you then ... tough!

Assuming you genuinely do not know the meaning of the "border" and need me to enlighten you, please allow me to do so. The actual description of borders by Encarta Encyclopedia is as follows:
"line dividing two areas: the line that officially separates two countries or regions, or the land on each side of it"
So! Whether we like it or not a border exists between North and South... Not only that we have official "border crossing posts" under police control on both sides, just like any other between two countries. Offensive or not to some, there was no mistake or other motive in the use of the correct term.

Glad to be of service, please feel free to enquire again for free advice!

ADDENDUM:
Your information about the existence of the Orthodox churches in Cyprus is also wrong! Greek Orthodox church came to be in mid 1050s. That would make the oldest orthodox church less than 1000 years old and not 1500. What you claim starts a more interesting argument! Yes there were many churches in Cyprus prior to Byzantine rule, and not all were built by Greeks - at least not by Orthodox Christians. That is why many historians refer to Byzantines as "painting murals" on the walls of churches (beautiful work of art they may well have been), rather than building them. What that tells me is; the Greek Orthodox Church is just as guilty of converting a place of worship to suit their own as did the Ottomans!

[Springsteen]

Well there is only one solution......WAR!
We need an alliance of the willing....start with our Orthodox brothers.Russia,Serbia,Greece(?),and fight the fight,no more Talking.

[Nikitas]

Big OZ said:

"Greek Orthodox church came to be in mid 1050s. : Where on earth do you dig this info from?

Up in the Moutoullas mountains there is a church covered in Greek writing, it was built around 600 AD, and it is not the only one. Who were these pre Orthodox Christians who built these churches up in the mountains and covered them in Greek writing?

Have you not come across the Orthodox - Catholic split which happened way before 1050? Please do not say the Phoenicians!

[bigOz]

Big OZ said:

"Greek Orthodox church came to be in mid 1050s. : Where on earth do you dig this info from?

Up in the Moutoullas mountains there is a church covered in Greek writing, it was built around 600 AD, and it is not the only one. Who were these pre Orthodox Christians who built these churches up in the mountains and covered them in Greek writing?

Have you not come across the Orthodox - Catholic split which happened way before 1050? Please do not say the Phoenicians!

Do you know what nikitas? I shall have to start charging you lot for tuition fees from now on! I do teach privately and I cost a fortune (but my students think Iam worth it )

Look my friend, this is what you''ll see if you link to:
http://creationwiki.org/Eastern_Orthodox_Church

"Christianity began in the Roman Empire in the first century. It flourished especially in the eastern territories of the empire. By the end of the 4th century, it had become the official religion of the empire. By late in the 5th century the Roman Empire in the Latin-speaking West had fallen into political ruin, but it continued in the Greek-speaking eastern Mediterranean region for another thousand years, with a succession of emperors, a powerful army, and a lively Greek Christian culture. The later Roman Empire is commonly known as the Byzantine Empire, with its capital at the “new Rome” of Constantinople (now İstanbul, Turkey). After the 5th century the religious cultures of Greek-speaking and Latin-speaking Christians began increasingly to diverge, and cultural alienation set in. In 1054 the leaders of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christians formally condemned one another for having introduced innovations into Christianity, and the alienation was given formal status as a schism (division). Since that time Christianity in eastern and western Europe has had decidedly different histories."

As I just said in the other post I am a little busy today, hence, this is the quickest quote I could find. I can give you more referneces later if you disagree. Furthermore, it is a widely accepted historic fact that the Byzantines started using and painting murals on all Christian Church walls (including Greek inscriptions). To claim the contrary would mean all the other Christian cultures that came and went before the Byzantines had never built or used a place of worship! Take the Greek Orthodox Churches out and you are left with a handful ion Cyprus that were built (possibly) after the Byzantine rule...

[Kifeas]

BigOz, since you call the cease-fire line between the area of Cyprus that Turkey illegally occupies and the rest of Cyprus, a “border between the GCs and TCs,” and since you are a man of superior knowledge and wisdom; can you please explain to me how it comes and I, together with another 200,000 Greek Cypriots –a number of people larger than the entire TC community, originated for thousands of years back -and used to live up until 1974, behind the “boarder” separating GCs and TCs?

If it is a “boarder” separating Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots, how it comes and behind this “TC" area there are more than 500 Christian Orthodox Churches –some of which more than 1,500 years old, and only less than 50 mosques –most of which are only a couple of decades old? How it comes and Salamis, a 2000 year old landmark, is full of ancient Greek language engravings around its ruined walls and floors? Is it because the Turkish Cypriot inhabitants north and behind this “boarder,” used to be Christians that once spoke Greek, and then all of suddenly changed their language to Turkish and started converting to Islam, and started building mosques instead of churches? I am only asking to be enlightened by you, because I consider you a “know it all” wise man!

I have not got a clue as to whether the Byzantines built 50 or 500 churches (Christianity did not exist during the Hellenic era of Cyprus). I do not agree with the use of quotation marks around "know it all" since it implies I stated or claimed any such thing myself! I did say I can back up what I write as the truth, unlike many in this forum who express their feelings or beliefs rather than facts. If that upsets you then ... tough!

Assuming you genuinely do not know the meaning of the "border" and need me to enlighten you, please allow me to do so. The actual description of borders by Encarta Encyclopedia is as follows:
"line dividing two areas: the line that officially separates two countries or regions, or the land on each side of it"
So! Whether we like it or not a border exists between North and South... Not only that we have official "border crossing posts" under police control on both sides, just like any other between two countries. Offensive or not to some, there was no mistake or other motive in the use of the correct term.

Glad to be of service, please feel free to enquire again for free advice!

ADDENDUM:
Your information about the existence of the Orthodox churches in Cyprus is also wrong! Greek Orthodox church came to be in mid 1050s. That would make the oldest orthodox church less than 1000 years old and not 1500. What you claim starts a more interesting argument! Yes there were many churches in Cyprus prior to Byzantine rule, and not all were built by Greeks - at least not by Orthodox Christians. That is why many historians refer to Byzantines as "painting murals" on the walls of churches (beautiful work of art they may well have been), rather than building them. What that tells me is; the Greek Orthodox Church is just as guilty of converting a place of worship to suit their own as did the Ottomans!

BigOz, I am indeed very grateful to you for the fact that you spend time in this forum to enlighten us all with your advanced thought and superior knowledge; and please do not think for a minute that I have been sarcastic or ironic with you, just because I inserted the fact that you know it all in quotation marks. I only did so, not because I was not literate with what I was saying, but because I stupidly thought for a moment that since the 3 words go together in forming one unique meaning, that it was better to keep them joined with quotation marks. Please accept my apologies if I have accidentally offended you in any way.

I have read very carefully what you have said in your above post, and I must admit you have given me the opportunity to come across very valuable new information that make things much clearer now, as to what the real history of this country is, and how we should all interpret it.

In other words, and to sum up your above very valuable factual analysis, basically those of us calling ourselves as Greek Cypriots nowadays, had actually invaded northern Cyprus, that is the inherent land of those of you calling yourselves as Turkish Cypriots nowadays, and have enslaved your then indigenous ancestors. We then forcefully imposed our Greek language onto your ancestors, during the Hellenic era in which our ancestors invaded your lands in the north. Then, you have managed to liberate yourselves from our yoke and rightfully kicked us out of Cyprus, and then you started building churches (but not Greek orthodox ones,) until the Byzantines invaded Cyprus and started building Byzantines Churches.
Then, in 1050 we (our GC ancestors) invaded Cyprus again, kicked out the Byzantines and enslaved your ancestors once more. It was then that we confiscated both the churches you built before the Byzantines arrived, but also those that the Byzantines themselves built, and converted them all into Greek Orthodox ones. Then, in 1571, your ottoman cousins came to your rescue, and managed to liberate you once more from our yoke. As a gratitude to your liberation by the Ottomans, you begun taking back all the churches your ancestors had previously built, and started converting them into mosques. After all, they were your creations in the first place. Your ancestors, showing their magnanimity, have allowed us to stay in your country -Cyprus, as cohabitants with you, despite the fact that we had previously invaded your lands and had enslaved you at least twice.

However, we (our invader ancestors) had once more showed their ingratitude to you, and in 1878 we conspired with the British in order to enslave you and your country for a 3rd time. We then in the 1950s and 60s cheated our British collaborators and managed to put the whole of Cyprus under our occupation, until 1974 that you have managed to kick us out and liberate the northern part of your country from our (Greek Cypriot) illegitimate occupation of so many hundreds of years. I must admit that only now, after your above well presented historical analysis -backed with full facts too, I begin to understand what you have meant when you so accurately described the current situation as a “border between the GCs and TCs!”

Only now, everything and anything you have been so articulately supporting in this forum, makes full sense with me, and I truly thank you for that! I have finally begun seeing the light, though your eyes, and I only wish the rest of the GCs will also be able to do so! Once more, thanks so much for spending your valuable time, trying to educate all of us here!

[denizaksulu]

Some people are simply splitting hairs. Why is it that some cannot accept the existence of christianity on our island since Peter and Paul. It is obvious as daylight that their places of worship, whether they are called temples , churches, orare Byzantine, pre-Byzantine would be there as well. It was criminal to attempt to wipe these traces of a previous culture out. Perhaps Its wrong to say 'previous' as the current Orthodox rites are descended from the Byzantine liturgy. I hope I am right.