Cyprus-Forum.com

[Tim Drayton]

Whatever the historical facts are, the present facts are that TCs belong in Cyprus. If you dispute this fact then the logical conclusion is that at some point you intend to kick them off the island. This is nonsense.

More important are the views which come out through leaks from the ongoing talks. Again we are indulging in xecret diplomacy in an island where everyone know everyone and leaks and distortions are bound to happen.

But that aside, if half of what is leaked out about the TC positions is true then we have a huge problem. Talat is pushing for a thinly veiled partition, with Turkey as a major player over the whole of the island. His goals are not countered by any corresponding desire on the GC side to give Greece equal say in Cyprus, and therefore his views can be interpreted as a one sided partitionist and therefore anti CYpriot approach.

In case you think this is a GC take, then read again the article by Levent and othr TC commentators.

This is the problem, not what happened in 1571.

And for those that think that Levent has ulterior motives, they should look up the threats, attacks, fines, jail terms, he had to suffer because of his views. He is one of the few reliable voices in Cyprus.

In a sense, does it matter that much what the leaders do in the talks? After all, they are only producing the blueprint of a settlement that will have to be approved in a referendum by both communities. If this blueprint contains anything that is blatantly unacceptable to one of the communities, then it will be rejected.

[MrH]

Get Real!

The present situation regarding the TRNC, through the eyes of us Turkish Cypriots, is that it is better to live under an unrecognised state than to live under a Greek Cypriot controlled ROC as a minority! The TRNC is real, perhaps not internationally recognised as a formal country/state of the United Nations, similarly to Taiwan, but it is a "Functioning" entity. And, the area "Northern Cyprus" is recognised by the 56 nation block OIC as the "Turkish Cypriot State". If you still won't agree with that, it's recognised by Turkey and we do have certain international representatives! Like HSBC, can fly there direct via Turkey, can fly to Azer'bjn and take a Direct boat tripe to Syria. We do have Foreign offices in many countries around the world, regardless of them being recognised as formal embassies or not, and we are gaining huge ground based on your failure to endorse the 2004 Annan Plan.

And, if I may and, we'll probably either be internationally recognised as the "Turkish Cypriot State" independently after you Greek Cypriots say no again to yet another future UN Cyprus plan, or we'll be recognised as a Constituent "Founding" state of a future Federal Cyprus Constitution. Either way, we are sure to gain our independence, formally, in some way or another.

[karma]

The Ottoman Turks invaded Cyprus to help Cypriots and punish their own people?

The Ottoman Empire had a long and complex history. It is perfectly possible to argue that there existed a very small Ottoman ruling class which exploited the rest of the population of the empire, including the ordinary Turkish people.

Of course the ruling elite would exploit everybody they can. Isn't this always the case? Even in democracies this can happen, let alone in monarchies.

Still, it is clear that when it came to ordinary people, the Ottomans favored their own. There was the Ottoman ruling elite at the top, the Muslim citizens after, and at the bottom the second category citizens, the Christians.

I am puzzled by the statement "the Ottomans favoured their own". Who were "their own"? The extent to which even the earliest Ottoman Sultans were pure-blooded Turks is debatable. As the years passed, and princesses from European royal families joined the harem to cement various tactical alliances, the Ottoman ruling lineage became more and more hybrid. Over the millenia, real power increasingly moved away from the throne to the vezirs and top layers of the bureaucracy behind the throne. These people had for the most part moved up through the ranks of the Janissaries, and as such were forcible converts to Islam who had their origins in the non-Muslim population of the empire. The Ottoman empire eventually engendered a small, inward-looking ruling elite that had nothing in common with the rest of the population. The only interests they were looking after were their own narrow self-interests.

The ideology of spreading Islam by conquest underpinned Ottoman imperialist expansion. In accordance with this ideology, the population was divided into the Muslim "millet-i hakime" (ruling people) and the non-Muslim "millet-i mahkume" (ruled people), and it is true that the former enjoyed privileges over the latter. However, all the Muslim inhabitants of the empire fell within this category. Indeed, there existed no concept of Turkishness or Turkish nationalism at that time. In fact, the Turks were the last people in the Ottoman empire to develop a national consciousness. Turkish-speaking Muslims were simply considered to be Muslim inhabitants of the empire along with Arab, Kurdish, Caucasian and other Muslims.

When the Ottoman Empire finally collapsed, Anatolia was the poorest and most backward part of the empire. Yet the Turkish speaking population was concentrated in this region. Surely this is proof enough that ordinary Turkish people did not enjoy any particular privileges in the empire.

thx for replying Piratis for me too, it would be very difficult for me to write all these real stuff in English

[Paphitis]

And, if I may and, we'll probably either be internationally recognised as the "Turkish Cypriot State" independently after you Greek Cypriots say no again to yet another future UN Cyprus plan, or we'll be recognised as a Constituent "Founding" state of a future Federal Cyprus Constitution. Either way, we are sure to gain our independence, formally, in some way or another.

And how do you propose to achieve this after so many UN resolutions denouncing the occupation and declaring the "trnc" a non entity?

How can the world legitimise an illegal invasion and occupation?

You would have to be very stupid to believe that The Cyprus Government will be willing to put to a referendum a plan that it knows the GC electorate can never accept. The peace talks will just stall, with no consensus being reached. Hence, no referendum either!

[Piratis]

The Ottoman Turks invaded Cyprus to help Cypriots and punish their own people?

The Ottoman Empire had a long and complex history. It is perfectly possible to argue that there existed a very small Ottoman ruling class which exploited the rest of the population of the empire, including the ordinary Turkish people.

Of course the ruling elite would exploit everybody they can. Isn't this always the case? Even in democracies this can happen, let alone in monarchies.

Still, it is clear that when it came to ordinary people, the Ottomans favored their own. There was the Ottoman ruling elite at the top, the Muslim citizens after, and at the bottom the second category citizens, the Christians.

I am puzzled by the statement "the Ottomans favoured their own". Who were "their own"? The extent to which even the earliest Ottoman Sultans were pure-blooded Turks is debatable. As the years passed, and princesses from European royal families joined the harem to cement various tactical alliances, the Ottoman ruling lineage became more and more hybrid. Over the millenia, real power increasingly moved away from the throne to the vezirs and top layers of the bureaucracy behind the throne. These people had for the most part moved up through the ranks of the Janissaries, and as such were forcible converts to Islam who had their origins in the non-Muslim population of the empire. The Ottoman empire eventually engendered a small, inward-looking ruling elite that had nothing in common with the rest of the population. The only interests they were looking after were their own narrow self-interests.

The ideology of spreading Islam by conquest underpinned Ottoman imperialist expansion. In accordance with this ideology, the population was divided into the Muslim "millet-i hakime" (ruling people) and the non-Muslim "millet-i mahkume" (ruled people), and it is true that the former enjoyed privileges over the latter. However, all the Muslim inhabitants of the empire fell within this category. Indeed, there existed no concept of Turkishness or Turkish nationalism at that time. In fact, the Turks were the last people in the Ottoman empire to develop a national consciousness. Turkish-speaking Muslims were simply considered to be Muslim inhabitants of the empire along with Arab, Kurdish, Caucasian and other Muslims.

When the Ottoman Empire finally collapsed, Anatolia was the poorest and most backward part of the empire. Yet the Turkish speaking population was concentrated in this region. Surely this is proof enough that ordinary Turkish people did not enjoy any particular privileges in the empire.

You answered your own question Tim. Their own are the Muslims and as you correctly said they were the privileged ones while the rest were second category citizens who paid double the taxes and not even their testimony in courts was accepted. This is exactly what I said in my previous posts.

I often use the term "Turks" to describe these Muslims because this is how these people want to be called in Turkey, Greece, Cyprus, Bulgaria etc. If you ask me, non of them has much to do with the real original Turks, who were Asian Mongolian people, not Caucasian, Mediterranean or Middle Eastern. In fact in Greece they use the more accurate term "Muslim minority" to describe this minority. However personally I think it is their right to determine their own identity, and if they want to be called "Turks" or "Turkish Cypriots", that is fine with me.

[Bananiot]

You are so generous this morning Piratis!

[Get Real!]

Of course it is a joke for someone to claim that the TCs should have fought the coupists in 1974, ……and this is definitely not a view shared by anyone serious GC, nor by any significant percentage among the GC public.

That’s because the “serious GCs” you are referring to have never looked at the “Turkish Cypriots” as anything other than Turks so their loyalty is never expected anyway!

How sad that these “serious GCs” are today pretending to be “negotiating with the "Turkish Cypriots” when in actual fact they are doing nothing more than toying with their enemy to appease Europe.

If and when these “serious GCs” start DEMANDING that those people who want to call themselves “Turkish Cypriots” start behaving like Cypriots, I and all the other “non-serious GCs” will be convinced that YOU are serious and the “Turkish Cypriots” are serious about the wellbeing of Cyprus.

Promoting "Turkish Cypriot" irresponsibility can only yield and breed "Turkish Cypriot" delinquents.

[Get Real!]

Whatever the historical facts are, the present facts are that TCs belong in Cyprus. If you dispute this fact then the logical conclusion is that at some point you intend to kick them off the island. This is nonsense.

They themselves dispute their Cypriotness (they don’t even recognize it) with words and through their actions, and for as long as this remains true the desire to kick them off the island will run parallel.

[Oracle]

I am the most serious Greek Cypriot of all because my Greek half saw the "TC"s as just Turkish, and my Cypriot half saw them as just "Turkish Cypriots". So I saw them as mostly Turkish!

Of course now they occupy our country alongside the Turks, we ALL have to accept the "TCs" were always just Turkish Cryptoes.

I wonder if they want to have a second go at becoming serious TCs, and try harder next time with the Cypriot element.

[BlackBolt]

Neo-Turkish Cypriots just don’t cut it with me…

What makes me angry is that most of those Turkish Cypriots against the “TRNC” and what it has evolved into over the decades, are not anti-“TRNC” for the RIGHT reasons such as…

“It was and still is illegal of Turkey to occupy and violate the sovereignty of Cyprus as confirmed by the UN, and it is unethical for Turkey/TCs to forcefully hold onto Cypriot land & properties some three times that of what the Turkish Cypriots actually owned, at the expense of the rightful GC owners.”

…but for purely SELFISH reasons such as:

“Turkish settlers are overrunning the Turkish Cypriots in the north to the point of extinction.”

“Nobody has recognized the “TRNC” thus far and probably nobody ever will so there’s no point…”

“The “TRNC” economy has been mismanaged to the point of bankruptcy so it hasn’t worked out…”

“There are too many foreign criminals and a thriving underworld making me not want to live there…”

Etc, etc, etc…

If moral values are NOT part of the Turkish Cypriot psyche then why the hell would the Greek Cypriots want to bail them out of their predicament which came about as a result of their LOOTING and PILLAGING of GC land, houses, goods, and even GC cultural heritage, abandoned due to the Turkish military invasion THEY ORDERED?

Clearly they don't give a toss if they 'cut it' with you or not. Either they don't think you're important or they've seen some of your posts licking Turkish arse (when are you and that Denizaksulu guy getting married?) and arguing with people who are supposed to be on the same 'side' as you.