Cyprus-Forum.com

[T_C]

And what about the uprisings against the Ottomans?

Doesn't that count for anything?

Don't some of you just wish you could go back in time??

[Oracle]

The Ottoman Turks invaded Cyprus to help Cypriots and punish their own people?

The Ottoman Empire had a long and complex history. It is perfectly possible to argue that there existed a very small Ottoman ruling class which exploited the rest of the population of the empire, including the ordinary Turkish people.

Of course the ruling elite would exploit everybody they can. Isn't this always the case? Even in democracies this can happen, let alone in monarchies.

Still, it is clear that when it came to ordinary people, the Ottomans favored their own. There was the Ottoman ruling elite at the top, the Muslim citizens after, and at the bottom the second category citizens, the Christians.

The order is totally wrong, there was the Ottoman Non Muslim ruling Elite at the top (including Sultans), the Christians and Jews after, and at the bottom the second category citizens, the poor muslims of Anatolia who had to fight here and there and did nothing else for at least 500 years in weird Ottoman History

It's only weird because of the historical revisionists and the games the Turks play with time-lines

Dujzings’ observations are pretty straight foreword. The ex-Muslim nationalist elites are exposed as liars, deliberately ignoring the historical record to create the illusion of peaceful and equal co-existence when, instead, the Albanian Muslim converts were living a life of privilege within the Ottoman hierarchy while Albanian, Greek and Serb Christians were kept under heavy taxation.

[humanist]

I want a bank account in Lichnestein don't you>

[Bananiot]

Birkibrisli, you see how difficult it is to talk to thick bigots? They are heartlress misanthropists and if they happened to be Turkish they would be beyond the Grey Wolves. They exist in every society but nowdays they tend to thrive in what we euphemistically call third workd countries because their "patriotic " jargon is not properly filtered by people without culture.

[Nikitas]

Whatever the historical facts are, the present facts are that TCs belong in Cyprus. If you dispute this fact then the logical conclusion is that at some point you intend to kick them off the island. This is nonsense.

More important are the views which come out through leaks from the ongoing talks. Again we are indulging in xecret diplomacy in an island where everyone know everyone and leaks and distortions are bound to happen.

But that aside, if half of what is leaked out about the TC positions is true then we have a huge problem. Talat is pushing for a thinly veiled partition, with Turkey as a major player over the whole of the island. His goals are not countered by any corresponding desire on the GC side to give Greece equal say in Cyprus, and therefore his views can be interpreted as a one sided partitionist and therefore anti CYpriot approach.

In case you think this is a GC take, then read again the article by Levent and othr TC commentators.

This is the problem, not what happened in 1571.

And for those that think that Levent has ulterior motives, they should look up the threats, attacks, fines, jail terms, he had to suffer because of his views. He is one of the few reliable voices in Cyprus.

[BirKibrisli]

Birkibrisli, you see how difficult it is to talk to thick bigots? They are heartlress misanthropists and if they happened to be Turkish they would be beyond the Grey Wolves. They exist in every society but nowdays they tend to thrive in what we euphemistically call third workd countries because their "patriotic " jargon is not properly filtered by people without culture.

It is indeed very disheartening,dear Bananiot,to see that we have learned nothing from the past 50 odd years...Now I can understand better how they were able to manage to divide and rule us like this...Sure we are also responsible as Cypriots for our fate,but what chance did we have against such inherent prejudice and ignorance which made us easy pray for the nationalism virus...It is totally bewildering for me that intelligent GCs like GR and Piratis cannot see the TCs could not in any way fight the coupists on the side of Makarios supporters...
The history books they have read must've been so biased they are totally unaware of the real situation the TCs were in then...And obviously the words or those like you and I who lived through those times counts for NOTHING..
Very sad indeed...

[Kifeas]

Birkibrisli, you see how difficult it is to talk to thick bigots? They are heartlress misanthropists and if they happened to be Turkish they would be beyond the Grey Wolves. They exist in every society but nowdays they tend to thrive in what we euphemistically call third workd countries because their "patriotic " jargon is not properly filtered by people without culture.

It is indeed very disheartening,dear Bananiot,to see that we have learned nothing from the past 50 odd years...Now I can understand better how they were able to manage to divide and rule us like this...Sure we are also responsible as Cypriots for our fate,but what chance did we have against such inherent prejudice and ignorance which made us easy pray for the nationalism virus...It is totally bewildering for me that intelligent GCs like GR and Piratis cannot see the TCs could not in any way fight the coupists on the side of Makarios supporters...
The history books they have read must've been so biased they are totally unaware of the real situation the TCs were in then...And obviously the words or those like you and I who lived through those times counts for NOTHING..
Very sad indeed...

Of course it is a joke for someone to claim that the TCs should have fought the coupists in 1974, or that they should have confronted the Turkish invasion, along with the GCs; and this is definitely not a view shared by anyone serious GC, nor by any significant percentage among the GC public. However, what the TCs should not have done was to aid and facilitate the Turkish invasion in such a profound and critical to its success way. Of course, it was in advance a well known fact that the TCs would have supported a potential Turkish invasion, and would have acted as bridgehead anywhere this would have been possible, and that is also why a critical number of GC NG forces were concentrated outside and around the TC areas or enclaves; forces that could have otherwise been used in confronting the Turkish invading forces more effectively. The stretching of GC forces all across and along Cyprus, due to the existence of fortified TC enclaves destined to facilitate a Turkish invasion, was what has decided the successful outcome of an otherwise destined to fail (badly organized and poorly executed) Turkish invasion.

[Piratis]

Birkibrisli, you see how difficult it is to talk to thick bigots? They are heartlress misanthropists and if they happened to be Turkish they would be beyond the Grey Wolves. They exist in every society but nowdays they tend to thrive in what we euphemistically call third workd countries because their "patriotic " jargon is not properly filtered by people without culture.

It is indeed very disheartening,dear Bananiot,to see that we have learned nothing from the past 50 odd years...Now I can understand better how they were able to manage to divide and rule us like this...Sure we are also responsible as Cypriots for our fate,but what chance did we have against such inherent prejudice and ignorance which made us easy pray for the nationalism virus...It is totally bewildering for me that intelligent GCs like GR and Piratis cannot see the TCs could not in any way fight the coupists on the side of Makarios supporters...
The history books they have read must've been so biased they are totally unaware of the real situation the TCs were in then...And obviously the words or those like you and I who lived through those times counts for NOTHING..
Very sad indeed...

Bir, I didn't expect from the TCs to fight against the coupists. The problem is that in 1974 the TCs fought on the side of the invading Turks against Cyprus, just as previously they fought on the side of the British against Cypriots, and just as previously they fought on the side of the Ottoman Turks against the Cypriots.

Yes, the Turks/British/Ottomans all gave rewards to the TC minority in order to take them on their side and against the Cypriot people who were asking for nothing more than their right for self-determination on their own island. But the guilty ones are not only the ones giving such reward/bribe, but also the ones who accept it.

So why is it "disheartening" to listen about the responsibility of your own community? As you say we need to learn from the past. Did the TCs learn their lesson? Did they learn that they should not cooperate with foreign powers to help them impose their rule over Cyprus, so they can get the rewards of land/power/privileges that those foreigners give to them on our expense? I don't think they learned this lesson because they continue doing this exact same thing today.

[Piratis]

The Ottoman Turks invaded Cyprus to help Cypriots and punish their own people?

The Ottoman Empire had a long and complex history. It is perfectly possible to argue that there existed a very small Ottoman ruling class which exploited the rest of the population of the empire, including the ordinary Turkish people.

Of course the ruling elite would exploit everybody they can. Isn't this always the case? Even in democracies this can happen, let alone in monarchies.

Still, it is clear that when it came to ordinary people, the Ottomans favored their own. There was the Ottoman ruling elite at the top, the Muslim citizens after, and at the bottom the second category citizens, the Christians.

The order is totally wrong, there was the Ottoman Non Muslim ruling Elite at the top (including Sultans), the Christians and Jews after, and at the bottom the second category citizens, the poor muslims of Anatolia who had to fight here and there and did nothing else for at least 500 years in weird Ottoman History

bollocks If that was the case then Christians would not convert to Islam, but the opposite would happen, meaning that in Cyprus and in Balkans there would be no Muslims. Some of those Christians that converted to Islam became crypto-Christians. One kind of crypto-Christians in Cyprus were known as "Linobambaki", but there are other kinds in Cyprus and elsewhere. Here is some info:

What is Crypto-Christianity?: Crypto-Christianity was called "double faith" by the Southeastern Slavic peoples. It was the outward conversion to Islam while privately practicing the Christian faith. Publicly, Crypto-Christians were Muslims, and, in a world overtaken by Ottomans, this offered them some benefits.

Privately, however, these same people held Catholic or Orthodox Christian beliefs. The gradual expansion of the Ottomans during the 14th century caused the people of Southeastern Europe to convert under duress or for preservation of wealth and power.

Crypto-Christianity in Bulgaria: Because the Bulgarians were defeated in war by the Ottomans, they faced forced conversion to Islam. Certain populations converted to Islam first. Any members of the nobility who remained converted quickly to this new religion in order to maintain possessions and authority. The Bogomils also found conversion relatively easy due to being ostracized for their heretical religious beliefs and practices.

Crypto-Christianity in Albania: Albanians, because they were not conquered by the Ottomans in wartime, were first permitted to practice any faith they wished. After battles broke out, however, pressure was put on them to convert from Christianity to Islam.

This pressure may not have been the sole purpose for Albanians' willing conversion. The Ottomans in power looked upon converts to Islam favorably, so, like the Bulgarian nobility, Albanians probably became Crypto-Christians due to the desire to take advantage of fewer taxes and other material gain.

Crypto-Christians could also be found in Serbia, though there is less evidence of their existence than of the Crypto-Christians of Bulgaria and Albania. Some pockets of Crypto-Christians were still practicing at the turn of the 20th century.

http://eeuropeanhistory.suite101.com/ar ... ristianity

It is a fact that the Muslims ("TCs") were the ones who benefited on the loss of every other Cypriot during the 3+ centuries of Ottoman rule. Probably this is when they got the mentality that they should always cooperate with foreign rulers in order to screw the rest of the population and take for themselves way more than their fair share.

[Bananiot]

Nikitas, are you saying that double union is okay, under the circumstances? Previously you said that you do not support double union but your incistence on this, albeit in an idirect way, in your last post, makes me wonder. Please clarify.

Regarding the stance of Talat I think it is to be expected. Christofias, prior to referendum in 2004, asked for a short postponement so that the details of the Annan plan could be properly explained to the people. On two occasions he spoke in favour of the plan and furthermore he called for some minor changes in order to accept it fully.

Before his round of negotiatiations with Talat he totally rejected the Plan and this, in my opinion, forced Talat to harden his stance. Talat did the right thing, from his point of view. Eventually he will most probably fall back to the Annan Plan, which the Turkish side accepted and no one will accuse him of being negative. Christofias in effect can only negotiate the Annan Plan and he probably knows this but he is held back by his nationalist partners who have daemonised the plan and made it synonymous to a dirty word.

Where does this leave us? Well, we are staring partition in the face and as Turkey is taking her seat in the G20 summit, some light headed people are calling for agreed partition while others who live in the clouds are calling for patience until the balance of power changes.