Cyprus-Forum.com

[denizaksulu]

Very brave man Mr Levent.

Persons can be critisized only by history. Lets see what history will prove after 50 years about this Gentleman!!!!

He has been behind prison bars for his views. Doesn't that tell you anything?

It tells me there's no democracy in the occupied areas.

................and?

Levent speaks out against the regime?

[Piratis]

Bir, I have to agree to Get Real that you need to stop presenting the TCs as the innocent victims. They have a big share of responsibility for what happened, and they continue having their share for what continues to happen today.

First of all, the TCs didn't drop from the sky the day that the British took over the island. The TCs were those who benefited during the previous 3+ centuries on the expense of the majority of the Cypriot people, with gross discriminations against us. If you think that 63-74 (a mere decade) was bad for you and therefore everything and anything can be excused because of that, then what can we say that you treated us 100 times worst for 30 times longer period? The question here is: Can past events be used as an excuse? If your answer is yes, then you should apply the same answer always, not only when it suits the TCs.

But the responsibilities of TCs didn't stop there. While the Greek Cypriots have shown an enormous amount of forgiveness and just within a few years after the end of the Ottoman rule, GCs and TCs were living peacefully along with each other, in 1958 (just 80 years after the end of Ottoman rule) the TCs decided to attack the GCs again, and start a new conflict with the excuse that Cypriots dared to ask for their self-determination! So just like on 9th of July 1821 they slaughtered us for daring to ask for our freedom, in 1958 they were again doing the exact same thing by attacking us and helping the British to oppress our revolution.

At the same time they started to demand that Greek Cypriots should be exterminated from the north part of their homeland, so some "Turkish Republic" can be artificially created there on land stolen from us.

All the above happened before any "63-74". In fact those events were the cause of "63-74". So how can you present "63-74" as the reason why the TCs acted the way they did in 1974? The TCs showed their aggression against GCs and their desire to exterminate us from the north part of Cyprus and achieve partition since the 50s. And even before that we had again experienced centuries of oppression and aggression by them which were totally unprovoked.

So please stop trying to excuse the TCs and justify their actions. Just like in the 3+ centuries of Ottoman rule they were happy to benefit on the loss of the vast majority of the Cypriot people, in the years after they were again happy to help foreign rulers so they would again have gains on the loss of the vast majority of the Cypriot people.

So, since the very beginning, the TCs help foreigners impose their rule over Cyprus (or part of it since 1974), and as a reward those foreigners grand to this TC minority unfair and disproportional share of power/land/rights on the expense of the majority of Cypriots.

And while the vast majority of the Cypriot people have been slaughtered by the 1000s and were being discriminated against in the worst kind of ways, the worst time for TCs was 1963 when it was asked from them to drop some of the unfair gains that the foreigners had granted to them on the expense of the Cypriot people! Apparently the TCs were so used in being the privileged people with more rights than anybody else, that asking from them to be just equal with others was something so unacceptable for them that they didn't even discuss it and they started yet another conflict instead!

So the reasons that TCs collaborate with Ottomans/Turks/British is not because of fear but because of self - interests hoping that those foreigners will grand to them unfair gains of land/power/rights on the expense of the rest of Cypriots people, as a reward for helping those foreigners serve their own interests in Cyprus. The only fear that the TCs can have is that they will lose the unfair gains that those foreigners have granted to them.

Piratis your ignorance make me want to cry and laugh at the same time - HAVE YOU BEEN LIVING ON A DIFFERENT PLANET TO EVERYONE ALL YOUR LIFE???

You are a classic example of bad schooling and history in the south. Yeah! sure, the Greeks were so forgiving they murdered and buried TCs in mass graves UNPROVOKED - unless you claim 6 month old babies and 80 year old women were provoking TCs outside their village! Why don't you cross over and I shall personally take you to these villages. There are just as many villages that are now in the South. HOW MANY GREEK VILLAGES DID TCs DESTROY AND BURY THEIR INHABITANTS - answer that if you can before you shove your fanatic propaganda!

If you want to really know about it, I suggest you read and find out about the plight of TCs after the British annexed the island in late 1800s. Yes, in line with their divide and rule policy and also with using their colonial subject to fight their wars British did employ TCs as auxiliary police, and did use them against the EOKA at the time - but whose fault was that?

If you are ignorant about the historical facts, I shall supply you with enough history that will make your eyes fall out of your head. A year ago I did tell many that the best way forward is to leave history to one side unless you learn both sides' stories. History should be used so as not to make the same mistakes and to find a way forward for peaceful existence. NOT to preach hatred or more possible losses to the country's inhabitants.

As for foreigners granting "privilaged rights" to TCs, I guess the Cyprus Republic was created as a direct result of the heroic actions of Greek mainland during 1960, and it meant a Greek Cyprus that was an extension of Greece! Wake up my man and read more history OUTSIDE YOUR BOX!
Even your greatest leader Makarios had realised the facts, and accepted during the beginning of the 74 troubles when he stated publicly "...threat from Turkey is the lesser evil than the threat from Greece"

Lets check the facts BigOz, because you are clueless.

Who made unprovoked attacks were always the Turks and the TCs.

Lets start form the begging:

Throughout the period of Venetian rule, Ottoman Turks raided and attacked at will. In 1489, the first year of Venetian control, Turks attacked the Karpas Peninsula, pillaging and taking captives to be sold into slavery. In 1539 the Turkish fleet attacked and destroyed Limassol. Fearing the ever-expanding Ottoman Empire, the Venetians had fortified Famagusta, Nicosia, and Kyrenia, but most other cities were easy prey.

In the summer of 1570, the Turks struck again, but this time with a full-scale invasion rather than a raid. About 60,000 troops, including cavalry and artillery, under the command of Lala Mustafa Pasha landed unopposed near Limassol on July 2, 1570, and laid siege to Nicosia. In an orgy of victory on the day that the city fell--September 9, 1570--20,000 Nicosians were put to death, and every church, public building, and palace was looted.

So you attacked us, without any provocation. Cypriots never ventured out of their own island to harm anybody.

Then during the Ottoman rule:

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821

Again, the Turks attack us without any provocation. Just the suspicion that we might commit the "crime" of seeking our freedom was enough for them to attack and slaughter many Cypriots.

Then your rule was over in 1878 and yes, the Greek Cypriots forgave you and we lived along each other peacefully, until you decided to attack us again without any provocation, just because, like in 1821, you didn't like the idea of Cypriots having their self determination on their own island:



So not only you attacked and killed 100s and 1000s of innocents in the conflicts you had with us, but it is YOU who always started those conflicts.

Apparently not only you forget the harm you have caused to us in those conflicts, but you also forget the fact that you started them! Keep dreaming that you are the "innocent" ones that were attacked without any provocation and you are the only ones who had casulaties.

The facts are there and show your true actions.

[Piratis]

Bir, I have to agree to Get Real that you need to stop presenting the TCs as the innocent victims. They have a big share of responsibility for what happened, and they continue having their share for what continues to happen today.

First of all, the TCs didn't drop from the sky the day that the British took over the island. The TCs were those who benefited during the previous 3+ centuries on the expense of the majority of the Cypriot people, with gross discriminations against us. If you think that 63-74 (a mere decade) was bad for you and therefore everything and anything can be excused because of that, then what can we say that you treated us 100 times worst for 30 times longer period? The question here is: Can past events be used as an excuse? If your answer is yes, then you should apply the same answer always, not only when it suits the TCs.

But the responsibilities of TCs didn't stop there. While the Greek Cypriots have shown an enormous amount of forgiveness and just within a few years after the end of the Ottoman rule, GCs and TCs were living peacefully along with each other, in 1958 (just 80 years after the end of Ottoman rule) the TCs decided to attack the GCs again, and start a new conflict with the excuse that Cypriots dared to ask for their self-determination! So just like on 9th of July 1821 they slaughtered us for daring to ask for our freedom, in 1958 they were again doing the exact same thing by attacking us and helping the British to oppress our revolution.

At the same time they started to demand that Greek Cypriots should be exterminated from the north part of their homeland, so some "Turkish Republic" can be artificially created there on land stolen from us.

All the above happened before any "63-74". In fact those events were the cause of "63-74". So how can you present "63-74" as the reason why the TCs acted the way they did in 1974? The TCs showed their aggression against GCs and their desire to exterminate us from the north part of Cyprus and achieve partition since the 50s. And even before that we had again experienced centuries of oppression and aggression by them which were totally unprovoked.

So please stop trying to excuse the TCs and justify their actions. Just like in the 3+ centuries of Ottoman rule they were happy to benefit on the loss of the vast majority of the Cypriot people, in the years after they were again happy to help foreign rulers so they would again have gains on the loss of the vast majority of the Cypriot people.

So, since the very beginning, the TCs help foreigners impose their rule over Cyprus (or part of it since 1974), and as a reward those foreigners grand to this TC minority unfair and disproportional share of power/land/rights on the expense of the majority of Cypriots.

And while the vast majority of the Cypriot people have been slaughtered by the 1000s and were being discriminated against in the worst kind of ways, the worst time for TCs was 1963 when it was asked from them to drop some of the unfair gains that the foreigners had granted to them on the expense of the Cypriot people! Apparently the TCs were so used in being the privilaged people with more rights than anybody else, that asking from them to be just equal with others was something so unacceptable for them that they didn't even discuss it and they started yet another conflict instead!

So the reasons that TCs collaborate with Ottomans/Turks/British is not because of fear but because of self - interests hoping that those foreigners will grand to them unfair gains of land/power/rights on the expense of the rest of Cypriots people, as a reward for helping those foreigners serve their own interests in Cyprus. The only fear that the TCs can have is that they will lose the unfair gains that those foreigners have granted to them.

You illiterate bum... (1) The TCs had no influence on the rule of the state, it was a dynasty, i.e. they decided on nothing just as the rest of the people living within the empire; (2) at the time of the Ottoman arrival to the island, GCs were not allowed to own land - all land you owned were given to you by the Ottomans; (3) Ottomans gave you religious and communal autonomy, unprecedented during the era; (4) the Ottomans charged you with higher taxes, true, but the muslims were banned from practicing trade (due to religous law) and obligated to serve in the military upon the calling of the emperor (which was quite frequent and longlasting during those 3+ centuries) - GCs were allowed trade and did not serve in the army.

Memorize this fact: TCs along with the rest of the Turks within the empire got FUCKED forward and backward by the Ottoman dynasty during those 3+ centuries; you got rights and privileges you did not have and you got rich.

The Ottoman Turks invaded Cyprus to help Cypriots and punish their own people? What kind of Turkish propaganda have you been taking lately? The super extra one?

Not only Greek Cypriots were forced to pay double the taxes, but the Turks considered Greek Cypriots as sub-human beings and not even our testimony in courts was accepted. In fact many Christians were forced to change religion and pretend to be Muslims so they would be treated better by the Turkish rulers (e.g. linobambaki). It is totally clear that the Muslims where the ones enjoying the most rights, while the Christians were second category citizens, who would be slaughtered by the 100s or 1000s whenever they dared to ask for some rights.

As far as Cyprus having benefits from the Ottomans, you are again lying to yourself. The Turks split Europe in two, and the part that came under them not only was filled with Muslims, who create problems even to this day, but was kept backwards compared to the rest of Europe.

During the Byzantine empire eastern Europe was the better and most developed part. After the Turks took over this was reversed.

[denizaksulu]

Bir, I have to agree to Get Real that you need to stop presenting the TCs as the innocent victims. They have a big share of responsibility for what happened, and they continue having their share for what continues to happen today.

First of all, the TCs didn't drop from the sky the day that the British took over the island. The TCs were those who benefited during the previous 3+ centuries on the expense of the majority of the Cypriot people, with gross discriminations against us. If you think that 63-74 (a mere decade) was bad for you and therefore everything and anything can be excused because of that, then what can we say that you treated us 100 times worst for 30 times longer period? The question here is: Can past events be used as an excuse? If your answer is yes, then you should apply the same answer always, not only when it suits the TCs.


You are absolutely right Piratis. I will grant you that the Cypriot during the years you mention did not in fact invade the Ottoman Empire or anybody else. It was your then masters the Venetians who were aiding the Christian corsairs, using Cyprus as a safe haven for their ships and attacking the Levantine trade route. Did you expect the Ottomans to sit back and take it up their arses? The Cypriots themselves may or may not have helped the Corsairs or pirates we will never know, but the Venetians were the rivals for the trade in the area and they would do anything to disrupt the Muslim traders. We discussed these last year but you suffer from short memory. Their raids on the Anatolian coast, rapine and pillage is well documented. These are facts you know very well but decide not to mention.

But the responsibilities of TCs didn't stop there. While the Greek Cypriots have shown an enormous amount of forgiveness and just within a few years after the end of the Ottoman rule, GCs and TCs were living peacefully along with each other, in 1958 (just 80 years after the end of Ottoman rule) the TCs decided to attack the GCs again, and start a new conflict with the excuse that Cypriots dared to ask for their self-determination! So just like on 9th of July 1821 they slaughtered us for daring to ask for our freedom, in 1958 they were again doing the exact same thing by attacking us and helping the British to oppress our revolution.

At the same time they started to demand that Greek Cypriots should be exterminated from the north part of their homeland, so some "Turkish Republic" can be artificially created there on land stolen from us.

All the above happened before any "63-74". In fact those events were the cause of "63-74". So how can you present "63-74" as the reason why the TCs acted the way they did in 1974? The TCs showed their aggression against GCs and their desire to exterminate us from the north part of Cyprus and achieve partition since the 50s. And even before that we had again experienced centuries of oppression and aggression by them which were totally unprovoked.

So please stop trying to excuse the TCs and justify their actions. Just like in the 3+ centuries of Ottoman rule they were happy to benefit on the loss of the vast majority of the Cypriot people, in the years after they were again happy to help foreign rulers so they would again have gains on the loss of the vast majority of the Cypriot people.

So, since the very beginning, the TCs help foreigners impose their rule over Cyprus (or part of it since 1974), and as a reward those foreigners grand to this TC minority unfair and disproportional share of power/land/rights on the expense of the majority of Cypriots.

And while the vast majority of the Cypriot people have been slaughtered by the 1000s and were being discriminated against in the worst kind of ways, the worst time for TCs was 1963 when it was asked from them to drop some of the unfair gains that the foreigners had granted to them on the expense of the Cypriot people! Apparently the TCs were so used in being the privileged people with more rights than anybody else, that asking from them to be just equal with others was something so unacceptable for them that they didn't even discuss it and they started yet another conflict instead!

So the reasons that TCs collaborate with Ottomans/Turks/British is not because of fear but because of self - interests hoping that those foreigners will grand to them unfair gains of land/power/rights on the expense of the rest of Cypriots people, as a reward for helping those foreigners serve their own interests in Cyprus. The only fear that the TCs can have is that they will lose the unfair gains that those foreigners have granted to them.

Piratis your ignorance make me want to cry and laugh at the same time - HAVE YOU BEEN LIVING ON A DIFFERENT PLANET TO EVERYONE ALL YOUR LIFE???

You are a classic example of bad schooling and history in the south. Yeah! sure, the Greeks were so forgiving they murdered and buried TCs in mass graves UNPROVOKED - unless you claim 6 month old babies and 80 year old women were provoking TCs outside their village! Why don't you cross over and I shall personally take you to these villages. There are just as many villages that are now in the South. HOW MANY GREEK VILLAGES DID TCs DESTROY AND BURY THEIR INHABITANTS - answer that if you can before you shove your fanatic propaganda!

If you want to really know about it, I suggest you read and find out about the plight of TCs after the British annexed the island in late 1800s. Yes, in line with their divide and rule policy and also with using their colonial subject to fight their wars British did employ TCs as auxiliary police, and did use them against the EOKA at the time - but whose fault was that?

If you are ignorant about the historical facts, I shall supply you with enough history that will make your eyes fall out of your head. A year ago I did tell many that the best way forward is to leave history to one side unless you learn both sides' stories. History should be used so as not to make the same mistakes and to find a way forward for peaceful existence. NOT to preach hatred or more possible losses to the country's inhabitants.

As for foreigners granting "privilaged rights" to TCs, I guess the Cyprus Republic was created as a direct result of the heroic actions of Greek mainland during 1960, and it meant a Greek Cyprus that was an extension of Greece! Wake up my man and read more history OUTSIDE YOUR BOX!
Even your greatest leader Makarios had realised the facts, and accepted during the beginning of the 74 troubles when he stated publicly "...threat from Turkey is the lesser evil than the threat from Greece"

Lets check the facts BigOz, because you are clueless.

Who made unprovoked attacks were always the Turks and the TCs.

Lets start form the begging:

Throughout the period of Venetian rule, Ottoman Turks raided and attacked at will. In 1489, the first year of Venetian control, Turks attacked the Karpas Peninsula, pillaging and taking captives to be sold into slavery. In 1539 the Turkish fleet attacked and destroyed Limassol. Fearing the ever-expanding Ottoman Empire, the Venetians had fortified Famagusta, Nicosia, and Kyrenia, but most other cities were easy prey.

In the summer of 1570, the Turks struck again, but this time with a full-scale invasion rather than a raid. About 60,000 troops, including cavalry and artillery, under the command of Lala Mustafa Pasha landed unopposed near Limassol on July 2, 1570, and laid siege to Nicosia. In an orgy of victory on the day that the city fell--September 9, 1570--20,000 Nicosians were put to death, and every church, public building, and palace was looted.

So you attacked us, without any provocation. Cypriots never ventured out of their own island to harm anybody.

Then during the Ottoman rule:

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821

Again, the Turks attack us without any provocation. Just the suspicion that we might commit the "crime" of seeking our freedom was enough for them to attack and slaughter many Cypriots.

Then your rule was over in 1878 and yes, the Greek Cypriots forgave you and we lived along each other peacefully, until you decided to attack us again without any provocation, just because, like in 1821, you didn't like the idea of Cypriots having their self determination on their own island:



So not only you attacked and killed 100s and 1000s of innocents in the conflicts you had with us, but it is YOU who always started those conflicts.

Apparently not only you forget the harm you have caused to us in those conflicts, but you also forget the fact that you started them! Keep dreaming that you are the "innocent" ones that were attacked without any provocation and you are the only ones who had casulaties.

The facts are there and show your true actions.

[Tim Drayton]

The Ottoman Turks invaded Cyprus to help Cypriots and punish their own people?

The Ottoman Empire had a long and complex history. It is perfectly possible to argue that there existed a very small Ottoman ruling class which exploited the rest of the population of the empire, including the ordinary Turkish people.

[denizaksulu]

You are absolutely right Piratis. I will grant you that the Cypriots during the years you mention did not in fact invade the Ottoman Empire or anybody else. It was your then masters the Venetians who were aiding the Christian corsairs, using Cyprus as a safe haven for their ships and attacking the Levantine trade route. Did you expect the Ottomans to sit back and take it up their arses? The Cypriots themselves may or may not have helped the Corsairs or pirates we will never know, but the Venetians were the rivals for the trade in the area and they would do anything to disrupt the Muslim traders. We discussed these last year but you suffer from short memory. Their raids on the Anatolian coast, rapine and pillage is well documented. These are facts you know very well but decide not to mention.

[Oracle]

You are absolutely right Piratis. I will grant you that the Cypriots during the years you mention did not in fact invade the Ottoman Empire or anybody else. It was your then masters the Venetians who were aiding the Christian corsairs, using Cyprus as a safe haven for their ships and attacking the Levantine trade route. Did you expect the Ottomans to sit back and take it up their arses? The Cypriots themselves may or may not have helped the Corsairs or pirates we will never know, but the Venetians were the rivals for the trade in the area and they would do anything to disrupt the Muslim traders. We discussed these last year but you suffer from short memory. Their raids on the Anatolian coast, rapine and pillage is well documented. These are facts you know very well but decide not to mention.

Cue to go further back in history and as to why the Ottomans (as Mongolians) came this far West to rape and pillage Asia Minor etc

[Get Real!]

(2) at the time of the Ottoman arrival to the island, GCs were not allowed to own land - all land you owned were given to you by the Ottomans;

Really? And where did the Ottomans get the land from Woolworths on a red light special?

(3) Ottomans gave you religious and communal autonomy, unprecedented during the era;

And we more than returned the favor in the 1960 constitution by allowing you to take part in it even though you lost miserably during the 1955..59 independence struggle by siding with the defeated colonialists. You should count your blessings you were not executed for high treason. When do you plan to thank the indigenous Cypriots for their unprecedented compassion?

(4) the Ottomans charged you with higher taxes, true, but the muslims were banned from practicing trade (due to religous law) and obligated to serve in the military upon the calling of the emperor (which was quite frequent and longlasting during those 3+ centuries) - GCs were allowed trade and did not serve in the army.

And we allowed you to withdraw to enclaves and create mini Turkic communities so you would feel much more at home like you did in Anatolia, so when do you plan to thank the indigenous Cypriots for all these privileges?

Memorize this fact: TCs along with the rest of the Turks within the empire got FUCKED forward and backward by the Ottoman dynasty during those 3+ centuries; you got rights and privileges you did not have and you got rich.

Well that should explain the first 400 years of wealth! What about 1974 onwards... how did the GCs get rich a second time do you think?

[Piratis]

The Ottoman Turks invaded Cyprus to help Cypriots and punish their own people?

The Ottoman Empire had a long and complex history. It is perfectly possible to argue that there existed a very small Ottoman ruling class which exploited the rest of the population of the empire, including the ordinary Turkish people.

Of course the ruling elite would exploit everybody they can. Isn't this always the case? Even in democracies this can happen, let alone in monarchies.

Still, it is clear that when it came to ordinary people, the Ottomans favored their own. There was the Ottoman ruling elite at the top, the Muslim citizens after, and at the bottom the second category citizens, the Christians.

[karma]

The Ottoman Turks invaded Cyprus to help Cypriots and punish their own people?

The Ottoman Empire had a long and complex history. It is perfectly possible to argue that there existed a very small Ottoman ruling class which exploited the rest of the population of the empire, including the ordinary Turkish people.

Of course the ruling elite would exploit everybody they can. Isn't this always the case? Even in democracies this can happen, let alone in monarchies.

Still, it is clear that when it came to ordinary people, the Ottomans favored their own. There was the Ottoman ruling elite at the top, the Muslim citizens after, and at the bottom the second category citizens, the Christians.

The order is totally wrong, there was the Ottoman Non Muslim ruling Elite at the top (including Sultans), the Christians and Jews after, and at the bottom the second category citizens, the poor muslims of Anatolia who had to fight here and there and did nothing else for at least 500 years in weird Ottoman History