Phaphitis, thanks for your kind comments about Scotland. However, as a Scot and also a Brit it is important not to always divorce oneself from responsibiity for the actions of the UK government by solely blaming the English. I hate that attitude in the Scots who use it - when the UK acts in a certain way all it's citizens bear some responsibility. Scotland is fully represented in the UK parliament, so there is little point in hiding behind the excuse that the English bear sole responsibilty either due to their values and attitudes (which are subtly different to the Scots - got to be careful here - this is a major generalisation but having spent approximately the same length of time in my life in both countries I think I can make a judgement on that one), or through the fact the vast majority of MPs represent English constituencies.
You are absolutely right. The Scots are as responsible as the English are for the actions of the UK Government. Australians can also be held accountable for the actions of their Government. I do not begrudge anyone from having a dig against Australia, as long as the criticisms are logically put.
I only differentiate between Scots and English on a cultural level, as there are differences between the 2 people. Scots are a proud people and they have a colourful history and culture. This is what I like about Scotland.
Many Scots also have chosen to live in Cyprus, and have shown a much closer kinship to Cypriots than what the English have. They generally embrace our culture and accept us whilst many English do not and are known for berating everything Cypriot. Scots do not have the supremacist attitude that the English are renowned for.
As far as the Miltiades issue goes I think anyone who gets themseves permanently banned from this forum bears the responsibility for that. However, it is a shame he can't post his views, particuarly on the Cypriot political situation, as he provided a different perspective on many issues to some of the other GCs. Franky, I noticed a tendency amongst some of the GCs to 'gang up' on Miltiades, and you were one of the key players there. Debate is desirable, but often the debates descend into personal attacks and abuse - to my mind an immature attitude which certainly will not assist clarifying the way forward for GCs in reaching a satisfactory political settlement for the island. Don't you realise - the TCs must love it when you GCs descend to this level - have the political debate, including input from all interested forumers, but cut out the personal abuse. In fact it is high time this thread was resurrected:
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=14608 as I don't feel it has yet been answered.
I also think it is a shame that he is not here to post what some consider a more moderate approach. However, it was not that anyone ganged up on him at all. He got himself all worked up and found it very difficult to express his view in a calm manner. He did not fit in, and people responded to his arrogance in the same tone and manner as his. It was not pretty, but he is responsible for much of what has happened.
There is a poster here who has gotten on my nerves much more than Miltiades ever did. Bananiot's opinions are like chalk and cheese to mine and many others. However, he expresses himself in a calm style and tone, and so most of us respond in similar fashion. If there was ever a member we would gang up on, it would be Bananiot, but there is absolutely no need for this as he is entitled to his opinions and we are entitled to ours. His intensity is always the same, so there is no need for us to do anything else apart from counter his argument with the same courtesy, style and tone.
Thanks for posting that link. It looks like an interesting thread, and so I shall read it.
You just can't help yourself can you? The Brits have turned Cyprus into a resort have they? Paphitis, I think the Cypriots might bear some responsibility there!!!!!!!! Reviewing the development I've noted over the near 25 years I've been visiting Cyprus, I've been appalled at what the planning authorities have allowed to happen to some towns, but don't blame the Brits! The Cypriots were happy to sell and develop (and vice versa) the land - and could have controlled the rate and type of development that has occurred. They chose to take the profitable route, and have irreversibly destroyed some parts of the island. This is a harsh but, I think, a fair analogy - who should be prosecuted - the drug dealer or the drug user? Yup, the dealer is the one to stop, and in my opinion the Cypriots have only themselves to blame for the damage they have done to their own environment in chasing the big bucks (or UK pounds) available from the relatively wealthy who wish to move to Cyprus. And your claim that we, the Brits, have destroyed your 'beautiful old villages and traditional homes' is ridiculous - Brits are just as likely to renovate old, delapidated property, usually in the traditional style, as they are to desire a villa or apartment - the glut of new properties available and market forces however probably make it much cheaper and easier to buy new than to renovate. In fact, Brits have a long tradition of renovating old buildings for reuse - some of us like 'old' and 'traditional'- and have been doing this in many countries throughout Europe for decades. Come on, give me an example of a Brit moving to Cyprus, demanding an old, traditional property be razed to the ground, and replaced by a modern villa - if that is allowed to happen I suggest the Cypriots are as likely to do this...........
Yes, I blame the Cypriot developers as well. Their developments are usually low quality and in poor taste, They do nothing to the landscape apart from creating many eyesores. They have chosen greed and have little respect to the aesthetics and beauty of the island. And the Cypriot authorities need to also accept some responsibility as they have allowed all this to happen.
However, the Cypriot developers are catering to market demand. They are catering to exactly what the Brit market desires. And so Paphos is now turning into a mini English province and is losing all its former charm.
Another huge generalisation Paphitis. A tiny number of the UK's very large military force has disgraced themselves and our nation in Iraq. Do not extrapolate this to mean our forces are undisciplined, and less so than the Australians. Perhaps the UK soldiers have been operating in a more dangerous environment in Iraq and that explains our higher casualties (as well as our proportionally higher numbers there). Certainly in Afghanistan the UK soldiers have been assigned to the most dangerous province. And yes, of course our soldiers are provided with training in local culture. In fact, the selection process is more rigorous for the forces than it was in the 1970s (the period I was describing for selection during my school days in another post). I have no wish to berate Australia in any way, read my sentence again, and indeed I accept that Britain started the issues regarding the aborigines. I was making a point that no nation is perfect......
I shall heed your advice and not make these generalisations. But it is very interesting to note your casualty rate and compare it to ours. The US for example has lost well over 4,000 men in Iraq, whilst you have lost 176, and Australia has lost 1 soldier. For Australia to be on an equal footing to the US Army, then we should have lost about 50 soldiers. Australia was on the front line during the initial invasion, but are now concentrating on peace keeping roles and other non combat areas.
In Afghanistan however, Australia has deployed their SAS as has Britain, and these units are assigned the most dangerous missions. Once again, our casualty rate is miniscule when compared to the US Army.
Even here, Australian Army is not known for committing any atrocities but are well regarded for their professionalism and low footprint within civilian areas. To me, this raises some important issues as to the methods employed by the US Army in recruitment and training of their soldiers. And since Britain does not have an unblemished record, perhaps the same questions can be asked of you. However, it is a well known fact that there is a vast difference between you and the Yanks. The Yanks are well known for their idiocy. They seem to think they are indestructible, and the Australian Army has always hated fighting shoulder to shoulder with them.
Without meaning to sound at all patronising, you are clearly an intelligent guy, Paphitis, with passionate views about Cyprus. But there is little point in linking the current British expat population in Cyprus to the decisions of the UK government in the 1950s to 1970s. Much better would be to accept that the UK was only one of several nations that made unfortunate decisions that led to the 1974 division of the island. It is interesting, indeed fascinating, to review history and try to understand why this event occurred. But I believe it is now more important for Cypriots to rationally debate, without resort to personal insults, the means to obtaining a just political settlement for the reunification of the island, and with your intellect and passion you could undoubtedly play an important role in any forum discussion on this.
And finally - I would like the UK to give back the land currently occupied by the bases - if you have an issue with the current UK government then that would be a relevant one on which to focus.
Thanks for sounding patronising.
But I consider the Brits to bring all of this upon themselves. If they want to come and live in Cyprus, then they could all show a bit of respect to Cypriot insecurities. They can stop being so overly sensitive when we express our political views in a Cypriot way and stop accusing us of Brit Bashing the minute someone makes an unsavoury remark about their supremacist attitudes, foreign policies, or about The Cyprus Emergency (55-59). Perhaps then we would give them more of a break. Please also note that there are many wonderful Brits in Cyprus, and we accept them even as our own. We love them as they love and accept our country and us. As for the rest, it will all depend on their approach. It is evident that many have a chip on their shoulder going back to the 55-59 period, as do the Cypriots.
If they want to get on their high horses, then they should expect that some of us may tear strips of them as we do to some Turkish Cypriot Forumers. The difference between some Brits and the TCs, is that the TCs usually take it all in their stride and usually hit back, whilst some Brits just whinge continuously about our foul Brit Bashing. IMHO!
