Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

The cause of the Cyprus problem is nothing more than the Expansionist policy of the Ottoman-Turkish groups of people.

Cause and effect .... Cypriots left un-invaded would not have THE Cyprus problems (others yes, but not this).

Anyone who tries to remove or negate the 100% cause as being the presence of an unwanted invader ... The Turks .... is just trying to complete the cycle of invasion and conquering by advancing on to offer Cyprus to the Turks because they have established some kind of self-imposed right to be here from their invasion, and our inability to remove them yet!

[halil]

Very good Piratis, but your simple world has no place in the real world. The Bananiots of 1897 and 1919 were warning of the dangers but the great patriots were not listening at the time. The Bananiots were warning in 1963 but the great patriots were calling us defeatists. The great patriots were asking us to throw the Turks into the sea in 1974 but while the Bananiots were at the front, the great patriots were holidaying at Troodos, for they cannot stand the hot Cyprus summer. Michalis Papapetrou, the bash defeatist, has a great story to tell you, if you are interested Piratis.

Nikitas, I am sure you know that going to war is not a business for the emotionally ustable. The Greek army was well prepared for the Balkan wars and the timing was also perfect to attempt to liberate the northenr parts of Greece. The Greek navy achieved superiority over the Ottoman navy thanks to the British officers who undertook to educate and train their Greek counterparts. Of course nobody knows of this small detail because our school history books teach us that it as the Greek "leventia" that triumphed, fuelling the ignorance that spreads aboundant in our sleepy society.

I hope that was not addressed to me either?

Just too easy to nullify your angle. Not challenging enough to offer any stimulation.

Paphidis,
Lets see if you will find my post any more challenging...
You seem to believe that the only cause of our present problem is that Turkey woke up one day in 1974 and decided her army needed some entertainment...And they are still finding it amusing to invade a neighbouring relatively weaker country so they will not go away...Is that it??? I often ask those who hold your opinions to self-reflect and tell me some things that the GCs did wrong to bring about the invasion and the occupation...I am still waiting for one GC apart from Bananiot to be objective and honest about the causes of the Cyprob...

You know what??? Burying your head in the sand and accusing only the Turkish side for everything under the sun, will not help find a just solution acceptable to both sides which will finally liberate Turkey from the burden of Cyprus...Speaking out objectively and without fear or favour,as Bananiot does, will help...

Do you want to help solve the problem...???Tell me 3 things that the GCs did wrong since 1950 which allowed the present situation to evolve???
If it is not too boring for you that is...

Niyazi Kizilyurek
'The unwanted child' … part 1

Neo-Nationalism and the transition of the Republic of Cyprus towards a Greek Cypriot State
“In the past 150 years the former Ottoman lands have been divided and left their place to nation-states with a different mosaic. Now each of these states have one ethnical group that is the ‘man of the house’. There is deep enmity between communities that once lived together. The nationalist ideology of the Exotic West is very strong. Setting governments and regimes based on the former Ottoman dominions in Lebanon and Cyprus are just pushy. As a matter of fact the Lebanese Civil War has made it crystal clear.
It is an utopia to believe that the lions and lambs in Cyprus could live together and be managed by a little child. The truth is that there were no lambs within the former Ottoman dominions. The former Ottoman dominions were mostly either lions or tigers.”
Arno Toynbee

The establishment of the Republic of Cyprus and the disappointment of the Greek Cypriots
Glafcos Clerides claims that the establishment of an independent Cyprus Government on the island was similar to the birth of an unwanted child. The government that was established without a ‘National Anthem’ had a flag that no-one seemed to accept as their own with no intentions of sacrificing their life for it. Clerides said, “The psychological conditions that the fragile young Republic of Cyprus was born into were as such.” Adding the following: “The Greek Cypriot community was disappointed that Enosis was not achieved and the rights, which were thought to be extravagant, given to the Turkish Cypriot community through the 1960 constitution caused feelings of rage and grudge.” According to Clerides the reasons behind the “unwise and fast” constitutional changes tried by the Greek Cypriot Leaders were these two facts; disappointment and rage.
As a matter of fact the Greek Cypriot community did indeed feel deep division with the establishment of the Republic of Cyprus and was dragged into the belonging and identity crisis. Although the Cyprus Government and the bodies of the government covered all the needs of practical day-to-day life, the newly established government did not let the Greek Cypriots feel themselves as an organic part of the Helene nation so did not mean much symbolically and emotionally. The establishment of the Republic of Cyprus brought the two notions, defined as being “unacceptable”, along: 1) The efforts for Enosis which has been ongoing for many years – this is not just a political struggle, this was a Major-Statement that gave meaning to all aspects of life – and was about to end; 2) Turkish Cypriots were the Constituent State of the Government. The Republic of Cyprus government was regarded as a structure that was “against Hellenism” and thought that it would erode the Hellenic Identity. For instance the Kyrenia Metropolitan published a declaration right after the Zurich and London agreements condemning the agreements and saying that the establishment of the Republic of Cyprus was threatening the 'Hellenic Identity of the island greatly.”
The Greek Cypriot politicians and eclectics that regarded Enosis as a ‘birthright’ felt such disappointment and rage about the bicommunal Cyprus Government that the amendments planned by Makarios on the Cyprus Constitution – that wanted to degrade the Turkish Cypriots to a minority group rather than a politically equal community – and the beginning of the ethnic fights in December 1963 was no surprise to anyone.

The London Conference and the attempt to turn the Republic of Cyprus to a Greek Cypriot Nation-State
Along with the 1963-64 ethnic violence the Greek Cypriot side ‘annulled’ the London and Zurich Agreements that helped establish the Cyprus State and started to talk about the right of the majority to ‘self determination’. The Turkish Cypriot side on the other hand defended that there was need for “a new political framework based on geographical division.” As a matter of fact at the January 1964, London meeting between the two sides suggestions were made based on these ideas. The Greek Cypriot side wanted the Guarantee and Alliance agreements to be ended immediately and the system of ‘single citizenship, single vote’ should be applied with the Greek Cypriots, who formed the majority, having the right to form the Cyprus Government administration. The Greek Cypriot delegation suggested that the Turkish Cypriots settle for ‘minority’ rights, aiming to turn the Republic of Cyprus into a nation-state governed by the Greek Cypriots suggesting that the “amount of extravagant minority rights” prevented the system from operating properly.
The evaluation by Rauf Denktas at the London Conference successfully summarises how the Greek Cypriot community was dragged into a ‘paradox’ with the establishment of the Republic of Cyprus: “On the one hand the Greek Cypriots wanted to feel, think and act the Hellenes in Greece openly claiming that Cyprus was not a nation, however on the other hand when the relations with the Turkish Cypriots and the Turkish Cypriot community’s rights were in question they claimed that Cyprus was a nation and the group with the advantage of higher population had the right to govern the minority group. The whole problem is caused by this selfish and paradoxical situation.”
In the London Conference the Turkish Cypriot side suggested that the two communities were completely separated from each other adding that the Turkish Cypriots could be located in “one or may be two dedicated areas.” They even calculated the population that would be moved to the dedicated areas. According to this 45,000 Turkish Cypriots and 35,000 Greek Cypriots would have to be moved from their current locations. The Turkish side also demanded that the political coverage to be found would have to be “based on a geographical base” adding that the Guarantee and Alliance Agreements should continue as is.
As you can see, the Greek Cypriot side defended the formation of a ‘Greek Cypriot nation-state’ changing the Cyprus State dramatically. The Turkish Cypriot leaders predicted “a federal state model based on geographical division.” These two separate visions prevented any kind of agreement which is why the London Conference was unsuccessful.

'The unwanted child' … part 2Niyazi Kizilyurek

Fully concentrated, pure Enosis’
Due to the 1964 fights the Turkish Cypriot side was drawn back/sacked from government positions and the bicommunal Republic of Cyprus was left in the hands of Greek Cypriots and slowly began to act as a Greek Cypriot nation-state. As a matter of fact, in the 1965 dated ‘goodwill’ letter sent to the UN by Makarios, it was stated that the Turkish Cypriots would be given enlarged minority rights. The same year AKEL sent a letter to the communist parties worldwide asking for support for Makarios and denying the government model based on two ethnic communities. According to AKEL the fundamental element of the Republic of Cyprus, the bicommunal element was an “artificial result created by imperialism.”
Following the end of the London Conference, when in no positive results being achieved, the bloody fights in Cyprus continued for a while and the Greek Cypriot side tended openly towards Enosis. Greek Cypriots declared to the entire world that they “disregarded” the Zurich and London Agreements and started to look for ways to achieve Enosis through mutual talks with Greece.
All the while there were diplomatic initiatives by the UN, the US and NATO to find a solution to the Cyprus Problem. For example the US assigned Dean Acheson as the Private Representative of President Johnson. Acheson presented a ‘solution plan’ that was based on dissolving the Republic of Cyprus and was presented to both parties in July 1964. However Makarios officially announced that they rejected to the plan on 12 August 1964.
Makarios, who was determined not to accept any suggestion which did not involve the idea of ‘Self-Determination/Enosis’, was also very cautious towards the ‘coup-based-Enosis’ plan prepared by Greek Minister of Defence Karafulyas and accepted by Prime Minister Papandreou and King Constantine in August 1964. According to that plan the Greek Parliament and the Cyprus House of Representatives would assemble at the same time and the Greek Parliament would approve of the unilateral Greek Cypriot decision on Enosis. According to Karafulyas, the possibility of Turkey declaring war in such a case would go beyond 10%. Karafulyas, who wanted to explain the plan in detail, came to Cyprus and they had long debates with Makarios and tried to dissolve the worries of the Greek Cypriots. For example the Greek Cypriots were worried that once Enosis was achieved their living standards would regress. Karafulyas informed that there would be economic offers for Greek Cypriots and tax reduction would be made. For those with worries related to their political careers, he specifically emphasised that the current Greek Cypriots MPs would be Greek MPs and the Ministers would take their place next to the Greek Ministers at the Greek Cabinet. Makarios was convinced and asked: “This is ok in principle, however I have one question, will I be the assistant-King in the Greek Kingdom?”
In truth Makarios was not happy with the offer. According to information leaked from Prime Minister Papandreou’s court, it was speculated that following the achievement of Enosis Papandreou would give Turkey a military base on Cyprus (*The source of information was widely speculated to be George Papandreou’s son Andreas Papandreou – N.K.) Makarios had two conditions to agree: The Greek Cypriot House of Representatives would not be dissolved until 6 months after Enosis was achieved and the Cyprus Government would continue to be in power. Karafulyas could not relay his thoughts on the conditions as he was urgently called back to Greece.
During this period ‘Atofia-Enosis’ (concentrated pure Enosis) was brought forward by both Makarios and AKEL. They kept emphasising that even a minor compromise to Turkey would mean ‘Double-Enosis’ and this was “unacceptable.” As a matter of fact on 31 January 1966, in a meeting attended by Makarios and Greek Government officials, Makarios made the following statement to the Greek Government: “There can be no compromises in exchange for Enosis in Cyprus. The compromises to be made by Greece are the business of the Greek Government.” As a matter of fact Greece was enthusiastic to call most of Cyprus within their borders in exchange for minor ‘compromises’ to Turkey. In fact a statement by George Papandreou clearly reflects the Greek tensions back in those days: “If they present you with apartment building you can give a flat to someone else.” However, Makarios was surely not in favour of giving away any “flats” which kept him from delivering the “title deeds of the apartment building.”

The Republic of Cyprus changed to a Greek Cypriot Government
The conversion of the Republic of Cyprus into the Greek Cypriot Government, despite all that happened in that era, is a result of the policies followed by Makarios during the period. He brought such conditions to get attached to Greece that he seemed to be “willing” for Enosis yet making it impossible with the conditions needed to be achieved. On the other hand, he was dissolving one-by-one all the elements based on the bicommunal nature of the Republic of Cyprus. For instance he ended the Community Council and founded the Ministry of Education and Culture although it was not mentioned in the constitution as one of the government bodies.
He invited Turkish Cypriots to be the minority within the Greek Cypriot nation-state clearly announcing that he would not consider any suggestion other than that. As a matter of fact the response by then Parliament Speaker Glafcos Clerides to the 3 Turkish Cypriot MPs in the House of Representatives who wanted to attend the meeting regarding the electoral law amendment in 1965 was the proof which officially showed that the 1960 Republic of Cyprus had dissolved: “In order for you to attend the House of Representatives meeting you have to declare that you accept the Makarios Government as the only official government. You also need to know that there is no more need for the separate majority vote. Your votes will be equal to that of other MPs.”
This statement meant that the Republic of Cyprus, which was based on partnership, had ended. The Republic of Cyprus was now replaced by the Greek Cypriot Government and the Turkish Cypriots could take their place as the ‘minority’ if they wished to be there.

Routing of the Greek Cypriot Government
In 1967 there were heated fights once again in Cyprus. The Greek Cypriot National Guards Army, under the command of Grivas, attacked Kofunye (Gecitkale) village and killed 24 Turkish Cypriots. Turkey once again began war preparations. Following US mediation the Greek Cypriot side accepted Turkey’s conditions and sent the Greek soldiers, that had entered the island illegally, and Grivas to Greece and the danger of war was eliminated.
After the 1967 Kofunye crisis there were important steps taken towards the conversion of the Republic of Cyprus into a Greek Cypriot Republic. Makarios made a deep-rooted change in the policy he had been pursuing until then distinguishing ‘efkteo’/ ‘efikton’ (What is achievable and what is longed for) and throwing it in the political scene. According to this Enosis was an “ideal that has been longed for” however is was not “achievable” under these circumstances. Independence on the other hand was “not wanted” but then again it was “achievable.” This meant that: Enosis policies have been hand-in-hand with the efforts to get the Republic of Cyprus to continue to function although converted into a Greek Cypriot Republic by then. However, from then on they would focus only on continuing the Republic of Cyprus. As a matter of fact in 1968 at the solution process for the Cyprus Problem it was said that there would be amendments to the constitution of the Republic of Cyprus and the negotiations would be “better” than the Zurich and London Agreements.
The main goal of the Greek Cypriot side at the 1968 negotiations process was to get the Turkish Cypriots described as a “minority” within the Republic of Cyprus and to convert the system to a Greek Cypriot nation-state.
The Turkish Cypriot side had to attend the negotiations on this basis and took on the role of being the side to stay silent as their rights pending from the 1960 constitution were being decreased. Despite all, Makarios “wanted more than that” at the negotiations so that there was no agreement. In a time when the Turkish side stepped back accepting 13 constitutional amendments however just insisting on autonomy in local authorities and administration, showed no flexibility, in the words of Pavlos Dinglis; “He wanted a Greek Cypriot State to rule over the Turkish Cypriots.”
The words of Dekleriz, Greek constitution expert, who came to the island to attend the Extended Meetings during the time and who was in close relations with Makarios; left no reason to doubt about Makarios’ intentions: “For him (meaning Makarios N.K.) the ideal and most probable solution was to continue the government which was formed of only Greek Cypriots offering Turkish Cypriots limited access to government. During the time we spent working together the thing that impressed me most was his belief that Hellenism would not be harmed as long as the ‘de facto’ situation continued.” As a matter of fact Makarios was in no real hurry to achieve a solution and believed that one day the Turkish side would accept all the conditions. In fact, following the Greek Coup and the Turkish Interference, at the 30th November 1974 Leaders’ summit in Athens he made the following statement: “The meetings were being handled in a comfortable medium. We could have achieved more.”

Post 1974 and Neo-Nationalism
The effort to continue the Republic of Cyprus, which came up in the 60s unintentionally just because Enosis could not be achieved, gained more importance after 1974 and caused a new political awareness within the Greek Cypriots. As a result of the campaign which was started to protect and strengthen the existence of the Republic of Cyprus the Greek Cypriot Government gained symbolic importance other than practical importance in the eyes of the Greek Cypriot Community. Independence Day - chosen randomly to be October 1 - was first celebrated after 1974 being one of the most important indicators that ‘citizenship awareness’ had developed by the Greek Cypriot Republic’s Government. Until then the emphasis was on the fact that the island was a ‘Hellenic island’ but the focus now shifted towards there being a Republic of Cyprus. The message delivered to all schools by the Ministry of Education on the first Independence Day celebrations in 1979 clearly showed the transition. The message said: “All students and Teachers should protect and help strengthen the Cypriot Government. In no condition would we allow the State symbols, offices and bodies be abused as they have been abused in the past with several excuses.”
This transition certainly affected the Greek Cypriot Communities perception of ‘Identity’. The Greek Cypriot majority, that defined themselves as ‘Hellenic’ above all other now defined themselves as ‘Greek Cypriot’. In the political arena the Greek Cypriots who could not cope with the identity of the Republic of Cyprus due to expectations of uniting with Greece were now proud to be citizens of the Republic of Cyprus.
The ‘paradoxical situation’ which was defined by Rauf Denktas in 1964 at the London Conference is now out of the scene. There is certainly a change in the theory. Today a Greek Cypriot can easily relate to the idea of being a Greek Cypriot however also a cultural part of the Hellenic culture. However, this is not the question that needs to be answered today. The question to be asked is: Would the Greek Cypriots that count the Republic of Cyprus as “their own” want to get together with the Turkish Cypriot as political equals? The same question is also valid for Turkish Cypriots - however that is the topic for another column.

[BirKibrisli]

Very good Piratis, but your simple world has no place in the real world. The Bananiots of 1897 and 1919 were warning of the dangers but the great patriots were not listening at the time. The Bananiots were warning in 1963 but the great patriots were calling us defeatists. The great patriots were asking us to throw the Turks into the sea in 1974 but while the Bananiots were at the front, the great patriots were holidaying at Troodos, for they cannot stand the hot Cyprus summer. Michalis Papapetrou, the bash defeatist, has a great story to tell you, if you are interested Piratis.

Nikitas, I am sure you know that going to war is not a business for the emotionally ustable. The Greek army was well prepared for the Balkan wars and the timing was also perfect to attempt to liberate the northenr parts of Greece. The Greek navy achieved superiority over the Ottoman navy thanks to the British officers who undertook to educate and train their Greek counterparts. Of course nobody knows of this small detail because our school history books teach us that it as the Greek "leventia" that triumphed, fuelling the ignorance that spreads aboundant in our sleepy society.

I hope that was not addressed to me either?

Just too easy to nullify your angle. Not challenging enough to offer any stimulation.

Paphidis,
Lets see if you will find my post any more challenging...
You seem to believe that the only cause of our present problem is that Turkey woke up one day in 1974 and decided her army needed some entertainment...And they are still finding it amusing to invade a neighbouring relatively weaker country so they will not go away...Is that it??? I often ask those who hold your opinions to self-reflect and tell me some things that the GCs did wrong to bring about the invasion and the occupation...I am still waiting for one GC apart from Bananiot to be objective and honest about the causes of the Cyprob...

You know what??? Burying your head in the sand and accusing only the Turkish side for everything under the sun, will not help find a just solution acceptable to both sides which will finally liberate Turkey from the burden of Cyprus...Speaking out objectively and without fear or favour,as Bananiot does, will help...

Do you want to help solve the problem...???Tell me 3 things that the GCs did wrong since 1950 which allowed the present situation to evolve???
If it is not too boring for you that is...

I could tell you many things that all sides did wrong. Starting with the British, who instigated the whole disaster by not allowing self determination and creating divisions amongst the GCs and TCs. Self determination was the fundamental right of the Cypriot people and you chose to impede us, hence it was only natural that you would have some casualties.

But this does not change the fact that Turkey is a nation that is still occupying Cyprus for 34 years whilst snubbing her nose to countless UN resolutions. It does not change the fact that it is Turkey which to this very day is contravening the 1960 Treaty of Guarantee with 40,000 troops and scoffing at her obligations under this treaty to respect the territorial integrity and sovereignty of the Republic.

It is Turkey that has ethnically cleansed 200,000 refugees, Turkified the occupied North. And now you want to negotiate a solution to legalise your plunder. It will NOT happen! Because we will not sign over control of our country to Turkey. We will never accept a solution which will render us as second class citizens.

You cannot justify your plunder by continuously reminding us of the past, when at the same time YOUR past was even more chequered as you have now realised your 55 year dream of TAKSIM.

Bananiot does not help at all. All he does is infuriate many people like myself. Because there is no way that some of us can ever accept living under Turkey's thumb. This may be OK for Bananiot, but not the majority of GCs. So I ask you, what do you think is going to happen if the Bananiots succeed in selling our democratic and human rights? Do you think selling these rights are worth your measly 7% of land?

I certainly hope that soon you will see the writing on the wall. Your unfair and illegitimate demands will fall by the wayside. Take note, because this is how the majority of GCs feel.

Talat is not serious about a solution. He is nothing but an imposter and very soon he will be exposed for the whole world to see.

As I suspected,Paphidis,you couldn't bring yourself to talk about even One thing the GCs did wrong in the past to bring about the present situation..It could be that you are truly brainwashed to believe that this is a simple issue of Turkish occupation...Once the occupation ends all will be well...The problem is the occupation will not end if people are not prepared to see why the majority of TCs would rather assimilate with the Turkish society and culture and lose their own unique identity,rather than risk their fate in GC hands...People do not chose suicide,Paphidis,unless they see it as the only option worth pursuing...The sooner you realise this the better...

Democracy does not equal the tyranny of the majority...
That is the experience of most of the TCs during the 64-74 period...
And human rights cuts both ways...The 1960 agreement which brought about the Republic and the Treaty of Guarantee has been violated since 1963...You cannot look at the events of 1974 without taking in the TC plight between 1964-74 and the Sampson coup of 74...Nobody particularly worried about the democratic and human rights of the TCs after the events of 1963...Nobody still worries about their rights today...You turn this conflict into a GC-Turkey conflict at your peril,Paphidis...The TCs are at the verge of extinction in Cyprus,spare a thought for them sometimes...Sure they made their own bad mistakes in the past,but do they deserve to disappear from the face of the earth..??? If you say "yes,they brought it on themselves",then you leave yourself open to the same assertion....The GCs did as much as the TCs to bring about the present situation...If you are not prepared to face this truth your cries of democracy and human rights will fall on deaf ears...Bananiot is trying to wake you up to this reality..As I said elsewhere,you should kiss his hand every day and twice on Sundays...

[Paphitis]

As I suspected,Paphidis,you couldn't bring yourself to talk about even One thing the GCs did wrong in the past to bring about the present situation..

I have mentioned many things and in detail, including the intercommunal violence.

Please research my posts, because I am not going to oblige you.

The problem is the occupation will not end if people are not prepared to see why the majority of TCs would rather assimilate with the Turkish society and culture and lose their own unique identity

Assimilation has already happened. So your fear campaign has no effect on me.

rather than risk their fate in GC hands...People do not chose suicide,Paphidis,unless they see it as the only option worth pursuing...The sooner you realise this the better...

It is the TCs that have chosen suicide, and all we can do for the time being is watch.

We will not sign over the northern parts of Cyprus. Your loyalties have never been to Cyprus. You are loyal to Turkey, and soon you will be extinct.

Democracy does not equal the tyranny of the majority...

Your type of democracy is the tyranny of the majority. And we will not allow this to happen.

That is the experience of most of the TCs during the 64-74 period...
And human rights cuts both ways...The 1960 agreement which brought about the Republic and the Treaty of Guarantee has been violated since 1963...You cannot look at the events of 1974 without taking in the TC plight between 1964-74 and the Sampson coup of 74...Nobody particularly worried about the democratic and human rights of the TCs after the events of 1963...Nobody still worries about their rights today...

I have mentioned all of the above on numerous occasions. Look at my posts. But you fail to mention that it was the TMT that in actual fact forced the TCs to withdraw into enclaves. All because we wanted to address the issue of inneffective Governance since 18% of the population controlled the whole Government through their veto power.

You turn this conflict into a GC-Turkey conflict at your peril,Paphidis...The TCs are at the verge of extinction in Cyprus,spare a thought for them sometimes...Sure they made their own bad mistakes in the past,but do they deserve to disappear from the face of the earth..??? If you say "yes,they brought it on themselves",then you leave yourself open to the same assertion....The GCs did as much as the TCs to bring about the present situation...If you are not prepared to face this truth your cries of democracy and human rights will fall on deaf ears...Bananiot is trying to wake you up to this reality..As I said elsewhere,you should kiss his hand every day and twice on Sundays..

I think it is you that needs to face up to the truth. Save your argument and energy, for it is futile. We will not legitimise your plunder. Justice is on our side and we will just wait for our opportunity.

If you are serious about a loose BBF solution, then you would propose a 82-18% land split.

I do not have the time to analyse and respond in more detail. I will be away until Friday.

Good night!

[BirKibrisli]

As I suspected,Paphidis,you couldn't bring yourself to talk about even One thing the GCs did wrong in the past to bring about the present situation..

I have mentioned many things and in detail, including the intercommunal violence.

Please research my posts, because I am not going to oblige you.

The problem is the occupation will not end if people are not prepared to see why the majority of TCs would rather assimilate with the Turkish society and culture and lose their own unique identity

Assimilation has already happened. So your fear campaign has no effect on me.

rather than risk their fate in GC hands...People do not chose suicide,Paphidis,unless they see it as the only option worth pursuing...The sooner you realise this the better...

It is the TCs that have chosen suicide, and all we can do for the time being is watch.

We will not sign over the northern parts of Cyprus. Your loyalties have never been to Cyprus. You are loyal to Turkey, and soon you will be extinct.

Democracy does not equal the tyranny of the majority...

Your type of democracy is the tyranny of the majority. And we will not allow this to happen.

That is the experience of most of the TCs during the 64-74 period...
And human rights cuts both ways...The 1960 agreement which brought about the Republic and the Treaty of Guarantee has been violated since 1963...You cannot look at the events of 1974 without taking in the TC plight between 1964-74 and the Sampson coup of 74...Nobody particularly worried about the democratic and human rights of the TCs after the events of 1963...Nobody still worries about their rights today...

I have mentioned all of the above on numerous occasions. Look at my posts. But you fail to mention that it was the TMT that in actual fact forced the TCs to withdraw into enclaves. All because we wanted to address the issue of inneffective Governance since 18% of the population controlled the whole Government through their veto power.

You turn this conflict into a GC-Turkey conflict at your peril,Paphidis...The TCs are at the verge of extinction in Cyprus,spare a thought for them sometimes...Sure they made their own bad mistakes in the past,but do they deserve to disappear from the face of the earth..??? If you say "yes,they brought it on themselves",then you leave yourself open to the same assertion....The GCs did as much as the TCs to bring about the present situation...If you are not prepared to face this truth your cries of democracy and human rights will fall on deaf ears...Bananiot is trying to wake you up to this reality..As I said elsewhere,you should kiss his hand every day and twice on Sundays..

I think it is you that needs to face up to the truth. Save your argument and energy, for it is futile. We will not legitimise your plunder. Justice is on our side and we will just wait for our opportunity.

If you are serious about a loose BBF solution, then you would propose a 82-18% land split.

I do not have the time to analyse and respond in more detail. I will be away until Friday.

Good night!

I do not want a lose or tight BBF...I want a Unitary state based on our Cypriotness,one vote one value,true democracy and respect for human rights,and the rule of law...You want Partition because you are not prepared to give up the dream and the glory of Hellenism....On your head be it...Good night...

[Piratis]

The Cyprus problem is the problem of foreign powers trying to impose their will on the Cypriot people by force. This is a problem we had for centuries.

After WWII and the creation of UN, colonization and empire building went out of fashion. Those that wanted to continue to impose their will on Cyprus had to find some excuse to do it. The TCs were their excuse.

There would be no 1974, no 1963, no 1960, no 1958 and no 1955 if those foreigners allowed the Cypriot people to peacefully and democratically decide the destiny of their own island.

This is the root of the problem. Everything after that is the direct result.

And nothing very unique happened in Cyprus by the way. This kind of power politics was nothing unusual. This was not the first time that ethnic minorities where used in such a way.

[Bananiot]

Turkey will only leave Cyprus if a solution is found. There is no other way to get rid of the occupation and the army. Neither legalistic battles in world fora nor waiting for the balance of power to change can help us. Working towards bulding friendship between the Greek and Turkish Cypriots, mutual respect and cooperation are the means to move to the right direction.

[Nikitas]

Bananiot lectures me that:

"Nikitas, I am sure you know that going to war is not a business for the emotionally ustable. The Greek army was well prepared for the Balkan wars and the timing was also perfect to attempt to liberate the northenr parts of Greece. The Greek navy achieved superiority over the Ottoman navy thanks to the British officers who undertook to educate and train their Greek counterparts. Of course nobody knows of this small detail because our school history books teach us that it as the Greek "leventia" that triumphed, fuelling the ignorance that spreads aboundant in our sleepy society."

Well, peace negotiations are arguably no place for madmen and neurotics either. I did not mention the Balkan wars as an example of Greek derring do. Just to illustrate that the same two nations, with the same population and resource ratios, went to war with radically different results from those of 1897. If the Greek navy had British training (not the same as having British officers actually fighting) we must not forget that Turkey at that time was literallycrawling with German officers and advisers who went as far as to build an international railway from Istanbul to Mecca and founded the Turkish arms industry.


The interesting fact here is how that salient fact is not mentioned by Bananiot. The standard cry is that the Greek/Cypriot side is always in the wrong when asserting any demand. The same attitude is displayed by Bananiot to the present, where any demand for a decent arrangement is dismissed as some sort of Greek bravado even if it is squarely within the definition of BBF but not totally servile.

Some of us, me included, fear most a repeat of 1963 due to a defective agreement. Any repeat will be much worse for obvious reasons. Accepting everything put in front of our face is not going to solve anything in the long run.

[denizaksulu]

The Cyprus problem is the problem of foreign powers trying to impose their will on the Cypriot people by force. This is a problem we had for centuries.

After WWII and the creation of UN, colonization and empire building went out of fashion. Those that wanted to continue to impose their will on Cyprus had to find some excuse to do it. The TCs were their excuse.

There would be no 1974, no 1963, no 1960, no 1958 and no 1955 if those foreigners allowed the Cypriot people to peacefully and democratically decide the destiny of their own island. This is the root of the problem. Everything after that is the direct result.

And nothing very unique happened in Cyprus by the way. This kind of power politics was nothing unusual. This was not the first time that ethnic minorities where used in such a way.

Yet again you have chosen to forget your demands for Enosis during the years you have mentioned.