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TC culture ,Heritage under the control of the GC Administrat

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby samarkeolog » Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:40 am

Get Real! wrote:
samarkeolog wrote:The point is, the abbey was a working Catholic abbey until it was given to the Orthodox Church. Not all of the Latins were killed or expelled. I don't know, but I haven't seen anything that says that Bellapais Abbey's monks were either killed or kicked off the island. All I've seen is stuff on their loss of control of the abbey.

UNFICYP’s “The Blue Beret” monthly magazine has an interesting article on the Abbey of Bellapais….

Page 5 of the PDF:

“With the decline of the Latin period in Cyprus, however, the
Catholic Church on the island also declined. The
Order of Premontre was no exception, particularly as
the morals of the monks had lapsed toward the end of
the Venetian occupation.

In 1570, during the Ottoman invasion of Cyprus, the
Abbey was largely destroyed. What was left was
handed over by the Ottomans to the Orthodox clergy.”


Well, to quote Oracle's alternative source - the one I quoted before - 'After the Turkish conquest in 1570, the abbey was given to the Orthodox Church. The buildings were neglected and fell into disrepair, but the abbey church was used as the parish church for the village that grew up around the monastery (presumably populated by descendents of the monks)[/i].'

So what was left and handed over by the Ottomans to the Orthodox clergy was probably the abbey church that the Orthodox priests used. Maybe the monastery was destroyed, but not the abbey church.

Some here might dismiss it as a dubious source, but another website did say that:

With the Ottoman conquest of the island in 1570, the Ottomans seized the Abbey and its property but allowed the villagers to use the Abbey’s church. Apart from some minor alterations to the church in order for it to function as orthodox (e.g. a new iconostasis), the building maintains its original form.... The Abbey’s cloister is a 14th century building and predates the church. Apart from its west wing the rest of the cloister still survives today.


...

Get Real! wrote:http://www.unficyp.org/media/Blue%20Beret%20-%20pdf%20files/2004/BB-01-January%202004.pdf


Oh dear… the Ottomans have done it again by destroying the Abbey! Or could it be that the Abbey was destroyed but the monks miraculously survived due to surgical Ottoman bombing but were murdered by Makarios later on? :lol:


As far as I understand it, in general, '[t]he Orthodox Church and population were allowed freedom of worship, but the Catholics were forced to either convert to Islam or Orthodoxy, or leave the island'. To highlight another part of the first quote, 'the abbey church was used as the parish church... (presumably populated by descendents of the monks)'. They probably converted and continued to serve at the abbey church.

Bye-bye Samarkeolog!


Night night.
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Postby doesntmatter » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:45 am

Get Real! wrote:
samarkeolog wrote:The point is, the abbey was a working Catholic abbey until it was given to the Orthodox Church. Not all of the Latins were killed or expelled. I don't know, but I haven't seen anything that says that Bellapais Abbey's monks were either killed or kicked off the island. All I've seen is stuff on their loss of control of the abbey.

UNFICYP’s “The Blue Beret” monthly magazine has an interesting article on the Abbey of Bellapais….

Page 5 of the PDF:

“With the decline of the Latin period in Cyprus, however, the
Catholic Church on the island also declined. The
Order of Premontre was no exception, particularly as
the morals of the monks had lapsed toward the end of
the Venetian occupation.

In 1570, during the Ottoman invasion of Cyprus, the
Abbey was largely destroyed. What was left was
handed over by the Ottomans to the Orthodox clergy.”


http://www.unficyp.org/media/Blue%20Ber ... 202004.pdf


Oh dear… the Ottomans have done it again by destroying the Abbey! Or could it be that the Abbey was destroyed but the monks miraculously survived due to surgical Ottoman bombing but were murdered by Makarios later on? :lol:

Samarkeolog insists that it was a "working abbey" and I'm starting to suspect that he was the real estate agent who brokered the transaction! :lol:

Bye-bye Samarkeolog!


Who were the "Genoese" GR, can you give me some info on them?
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Postby Get Real! » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:09 pm

Kellogg’s cornflakes, this is not going any further because UNFICYP get their info from UNESCO so you’re clutching at… no not straws but thin air! :lol:

Hmm, your fighting spirit does remind me of someone though… have we met in person by any chance in one of last year’s get-togethers? :)
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Postby Get Real! » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:10 pm

doesntmatter wrote:Who were the "Genoese" GR, can you give me some info on them?

Italy was full of little kingdoms around the major cities, like Venice (Venetians), and modern day Genoa in the north was one too.
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Postby samarkeolog » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:49 pm

Get Real! wrote:Kellogg’s cornflakes, this is not going any further because UNFICYP get their info from UNESCO so you’re clutching at… no not straws but thin air! :lol:


Bellapais isn't a World Heritage Site. Why would UNESCO know anything about it at all?... I somewhat doubt they have a phone line for random questions run by a specialist in Cypriot ecclesiastical history.

Hmm, your fighting spirit does remind me of someone though… have we met in person by any chance in one of last year’s get-togethers? :)


Am I Kellogg's Cornflakes? Does the joke not translate well into English? If I am indeed the Notorious Cornflake, sadly I haven't been to any of the get-togethers.

Your source says the same thing about the church that the other one did. The other source probably took it from the UNFICYP article. 'The church... is the earliest surviving part of the Abbey, and dates from the 13th century. Except for the modern iconostasis, it remains in its original form.' It sounds like the church survived. But maybe we shouldn't trust your source... or the other ones that agree with it...

I would remind you that the source I quoted before said that the Ottomans 'allowed the villagers to use the Abbey’s church'. They couldn't have used it if it had been destroyed. And just in case you didn't follow the link, the source was the Greek Cypriot Department of Antiquities. Are you saying that (")UNESCO(") know more about Cypriot antiquities than the Department of Antiquities of the Republic of Cyprus? (Although, of course, I think they agree, so I don't think there is a contradiction...)

(And if we were going to play with words about how the Greek Cypriot Orthodox Church got a Latin church, it's your source that said that 'the church was taken over by the Orthodox community'.)
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Postby doesntmatter » Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:24 pm

Get Real! wrote:
doesntmatter wrote:Who were the "Genoese" GR, can you give me some info on them?

Italy was full of little kingdoms around the major cities, like Venice (Venetians), and modern day Genoa in the north was one too.


What is their [Genoese's] connection with Cyprus and Bellapais?
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Postby Get Real! » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:32 pm

samarkeolog wrote:Bellapais isn't a World Heritage Site. Why would UNESCO know anything about it at all?

The “World Heritage mission” is just ONE of the many things UNESCO does… ie: here’s the natural science section as an example…

http://portal.unesco.org/science/en/ev. ... N=201.html

Am I Kellogg's Cornflakes? Does the joke not translate well into English? If I am indeed the Notorious Cornflake, sadly I haven't been to any of the get-togethers.

:? He must be a relative... he was the undisputed champion at splitting hairs and you're not too far off! :lol:
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Postby Get Real! » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:39 pm

doesntmatter wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
doesntmatter wrote:Who were the "Genoese" GR, can you give me some info on them?

Italy was full of little kingdoms around the major cities, like Venice (Venetians), and modern day Genoa in the north was one too.

What is their [Genoese's] connection with Cyprus and Bellapais?

I'm not sure if there is one... they're not even mentioned in UNFICYP's version of events... :lol:

Bellapais Abbey was first heard of as a house of Augustinian canons, founded by the king of Jerusalem (probably Aimery de Lusignan, who held that title from 1198 to 1205). The Augustinians came from Palestine, where their order had held custody of the church of the Holy Sepulchre. The monks of St. Norbert also arrived from Palestine, after losing two monasteries there. The Abbey adopted the canons of the Norbertines (or the Prémonstratensians) at the time of Thierry (1206 to 1211), the second Latin Archbishop of Nicosia.

The Abbey grew rapidly in importance. Pious benefactions increased its wealth, and included a piece of the “True Cross”, bequeathed in 1246 by a knight from Paphos. Royal patronage was granted on a generous scale by Hugh III (1267 to 1284), who was regarded as the Abbey’s leading benefactor. Hugh also granted the abbots the privileges of wearing the pontifical mitre during services, and of bearing a sword and gilt spurs when riding.

At the time of the Venetian occupation, the abbacy of Bellapais remained a rich prize, judging by the fact that at one time there were three claimants to the role: one supported by the Republic of Venice, one by the Pope and a third actually installed in the Abbey. With the decline of the Latin period in Cyprus, however, the Catholic Church on the island also declined. The Order of Premontre was no exception, particularly as the morals of the monks had lapsed toward the end of the Venetian occupation.

In 1570, during the Ottoman invasion of Cyprus, the Abbey was largely destroyed. What was left was handed over by the Ottomans to the Orthodox clergy.


http://www.unficyp.org/media/Blue%20Ber ... 202004.pdf
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Postby samarkeolog » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:40 pm

Get Real! wrote:
samarkeolog wrote:Bellapais isn't a World Heritage Site. Why would UNESCO know anything about it at all?

The “World Heritage mission” is just ONE of the many things UNESCO does… ie: here’s the natural science section as an example…

http://portal.unesco.org/science/en/ev. ... N=201.html

Am I Kellogg's Cornflakes? Does the joke not translate well into English? If I am indeed the Notorious Cornflake, sadly I haven't been to any of the get-togethers.

:? He must be a relative... he was the undisputed champion at splitting hairs and you're not too far off! :lol:


True - education, science and culture - but I still seriously doubt it knows about Bellapais. And the Department of Antiquities and UNFICYP sources do seem to agree that the church survived...
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Postby T_C » Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:03 am

Most of Bellapais still stands. The church most definitely does because I was in there not so long ago. :) Thats where I saw the iconography. Theres Greek "graffiti" on some of the walls too.

The ruins are around the church from what I can remember, but most of the Abbey still stands.

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