Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

Perhaps you missed the O between the pseudopodia Oracle, otherwise your answer would have been slightly different.

No! .... Stop trying to squeeze yourself out of this allegory ...... Their transient nature is the significance Besides I am indigestible

But get a load of Kifeas' sensuous poetry on the Nature of Cyprus and the symbiotic relationship with its indigenous inhabitants (us!)

VP, the Phoenicians, had also been able to carve a large portion of Cyprus, the SE 1/3 corner, in which they established their separate kingdoms. This separate occupation of Cyprus had lasted for 300 years, during which we were squeezed into the remaining 2/3 of our island. Where are the Phoenicians now, and where are we? The Phoenicians have come and gone to were you will also end up (disappeared,) but we are still here, like we used to be here for more than 4 millenniums. Do you know why? Because we, Greek Cypriots, and the island that is called Cyprus, are one integral and inseparable unit! We are the nature of Cyprus, and Cyprus is the nature of us! We are the indigenous inhabitants, and like you, the Phoenicians for 300 years, the Persians for 400 years, the Arabs for 300 years, the Egyptians, the Assyrians, the Saracens, the Romans, the Franks, the Venetians, the British and the Ottomans, you are all foreign elements, outside and strange to the nature of Cyprus. That is why you all come and go, disappear; but we remain here, survive, swallow, consume and digest you. This is what the history tells everybody, because this is the nature of Cyprus! Because this is the will of God and nature!

Cheer up and celebrate, because you think you won a war! All the above mentioned, had also won wars against us, and occupied part or all of Cyprus, for much longer than you have done the last time. In the end, where are they, and where are we? What is 35 years that passed since 1974, in front of the 300 and 400 years that many of the above invaders and occupiers have stayed? Nothing! In the end, we survived, and they disappeared! You are not simply fighting another people! You are in fact fighting nature itself, and no human can put up with nature! In the end, nature will win!

You either become friends with us, if you want to survive on this island, or otherwise, well, your destine is …pre-determined! It is written in golden letters on each stone in this country!

[Bananiot]

One in 20 Greek Cypriots is Phoenician and this is a fact. This answers the question "where are the Phoenicians now". The next question to be asked is "who are the other 80"?

[Piratis]

One in 20 Greek Cypriots is Phoenician and this is a fact. This answers the question "where are the Phoenicians now". The next question to be asked is "who are the other 80"?

How exactly can a Greek Cypriot be Phoenician? If he was Phoenician then he would have a Phoenician language and culture and he would know that he is Phoenician himself. Personally don't know any such "Greek Cypriot Phoenician", do you? As Kifeas said the Phoenicians were assimilated long time ago, something which was natural to happen over time since the majority was Greek and the Greek civilization grew way beyond the Phoenician one.

Now about your 1 in 20 and the "other 80" I am not sure what kind of math you did there and if there is any connection, but I am guessing you messed it up a bit.

[Nikitas]

"in the end you will be begging for partition" says Viewpoint.

I thought that partition along with Enosis of the north with Turkey is what we had since 1974. Somehow this partition has benefitted the south and not the north. History has strange ways of turning the tables on those that are not nimble thinkers, just think of the Berlin wall, the iron curtain, and so many other things that seemed insuperable.

Viewpoint likes to think of the occupied Cyprus as some modern day Mecca to which thousands of Turks will flock, and not just any Turks, but the cream of the educated elite. Well, VP, those people tend to flock WEST, to Istanbul and Izmir, not Cyprus. And TCs who want a good career go there too. Your chance of making any kind of mark in the world is as part of an independent and progressive nation, not as a mere speck in a sea of Turks where the center is Istanbul or Ankara. Others in this forum (and outside it too), see the reality.

[Viewpoint]

There are no countries where after a war the distribution of land is based on population ratios, it is agreed by the victor and the rest of the world or alternatively between the victor and loser who wishes to cut its loses and save what it has left.

We have in place now division recognized or not left unnegotiated it will either remain as is or be recognized over time.

VP, let me re-explain to you once more a few things that zucchinis and cucumbers like Bananiot and Copperline will never be able to explain to you.
We, Greek Cypriots, have been existing on this island -the whole of it and in all 4 corners of it, for more than 4,000 years. During all these thousands of years, we have come under many “victorious” of war occupiers. Some of them have even stayed as “victorious” rulers, for much longer than your ottoman “motherland,” the “sick man of Europe,” have stayed. The Assyrians had come and stayed for 300 years, but in the end we have swallowed them, they disappeared and we have stayed and continued here. The Phoenicians, the same! The Persians, too, for 400 years! The Egyptians, likewise! The Romans, the Franks, the Lusignans and the Venetians! All of them came, stayed for even longer than your ottoman ancestors and their remnants, and then either left, disappeared or we have swallowed and digested them, but we survived and have stayed here, as the undisputed overwhelming majority. Most of them do not even exist today, just like one day you will also disappear, and just like we will survive you too, and stay here, because it is written in history and in our DNA, to sustain, survive and overcome many rulers in this country that is ours!

Those you were able to swallow upas you put it because they were mixed in with general population but what you have now is a different situation, losing 37% of Cyprus and rapid growth of Turks in the north will in 10 20 years time too big a population to assimilate, it will be there other way around and Turks 2 million will swallow you whole and your 4000 year history will be wiped clean away. We have accepted that TCs if the current situation continues will gradually diminish and disappear our numbers are to small to resist but for us its a return to our roots which are Turkish but this is not the case for you GCs who will face the flood of Turks who will gradually move south firstly for work and then infiltrate your stagnant population, who knows you may end up with Turks as members of you immediate family pretty soon.

You can maintain your current mentality and see things unfold or you can wake to the fact that TCs will not be around forever you will find that the generation on this will not share any commonality with you and even view you as bloody foreigners who have no right on this island then we will all witness who will swallow who up. I have the chance to interact with the second generation settlers in the north and they bare no feeling or closeness to GCs they view them as gavurs and dont give a shit for unification and certainly do not want to live or share anything with GCs, this viewpoint will get stronger and stronger as TCs marry well educated Turks and their attitudes also change, you can choose to ignore this reality but in the long run it will be the Turks who will be victorious yet again when they swallow you whole without even burping.

VP, the Phoenicians, had also been able to carve a large portion of Cyprus, the SE 1/3 corner, in which they established their separate kingdoms. This separate occupation of Cyprus had lasted for 300 years, during which we were squeezed into the remaining 2/3 of our island. Where are the Phoenicians now, and where are we? The Phoenicians have come and gone to were you will also end up (disappeared,) but we are still here, like we used to be here for more than 4 millenniums. Do you know why? Because we, Greek Cypriots, and the island that is called Cyprus, are one integral and inseparable unit! We are the nature of Cyprus, and Cyprus is the nature of us! We are the indigenous inhabitants, and like you, the Phoenicians for 300 years, the Persians for 400 years, the Arabs for 300 years, the Egyptians, the Assyrians, the Saracens, the Romans, the Franks, the Venetians, the British and the Ottomans, you are all foreign elements, outside and strange to the nature of Cyprus. That is why you all come and go, disappear; but we remain here, survive, swallow, consume and digest you. This is what the history tells everybody, because this is the nature of Cyprus! Because this is the will of God and nature!

Cheer up and celebrate, because you think you won a war! All the above mentioned, had also won wars against us, and occupied part or all of Cyprus, for much longer than you have done the last time. In the end, where are they, and where are we? What is 35 years that passed since 1974, in front of the 300 and 400 years that many of the above invaders and occupiers have stayed? Nothing! In the end, we survived, and they disappeared! You are not simply fighting another people! You are in fact fighting nature itself, and no human can put up with nature! In the end, nature will win!

You either become friends with us, if you want to survive on this island, or otherwise, well, your destine is …pre-determined! It is written in golden letters on each stone in this country!

You can hold onto your dreams all you want but the reality is you are the bastardized version of all those conquerors who have seeded what you today call Greek Cypriots, you are what you hate. The big difference is that we are divided and this will continue in our life time and any solution will be based on 2 recognized states which is a far cry from what happened in past history. Today is what is important and TCs have evolved a long way from the ghettos you forced us to live in and will not give up easy what we have today, never forget TCs are willing to pay a price 100 fold to todays non recognition and isolation rather than live in a GC state run by GCs like a foreigner in their home land.

[Michalism]

If the objective in these debates is to be right then all these long discussion threads about the Cyprus Problem will ever be is just empty debates. Do not get me wrong healthy debates are good and more often than not lead to a conclusion even if the conclusion is the cliche "we will agree that we disagree" (not an acceptable result for me but better than attacking each other forever). The problem with THESE debates is that they are not healthy because they almost without exception end up becoming personal attacks. It would be great if everyone made an effort to debate the issues without getting personal. I know this can be difficult sometimes especially if the person feels personally wronged by the other side. I do not think anyone can argue that a war is a good thing, but it happened to us...all of us. Now we have to find ways to undo what the war has created.

Allow me to speak from a selfish point of view to make a point. I prefer to be peaceful and happy than right and miserable. The current situation in Cyprus does not make me happy, quite the opposite it makes me very unhappy. I can argue the GC side to death but if my objective is to win the debate as a GC I am setting up myself for a huge disappointment. The parallels with the previous conquerors that have been ruling Cyprus for hundreds of years do not apply here in my opinion. This is not about safeguarding the Greek civilization on an occupied island. The Greek culture and civilization are safe. Nobody is threatening its existence whatever the plan is called...Annan or otherwise. The diffrence now is the European Union. We have to accept however that the TCs are Cypriots too and they have a right to live on this island not as guests but as citizens with the same rights as the GCs. Democracy could have never worked in our situation since the TCs are a large minority. When the result of voting is always aniticipated to be the same in favor of the same majority i.e. the GCs then this is not a true democracy. If a TC had the same chance to be elected President of the Republic as a GC this would be a true democracy. Unfortuntely our situation is comparable to the racism in the US. The whites agains the blacks. It took the US hundreds of years to somewhat overcome the racist divide and elect a black President. This is true democracy. In our case the only way to guarantee true Democracy at this juncture is to allow the TCs to be an entity in a Federation with certain rights guranteed to them until we reach a stage when it will not matter if a Cypriot Citizen is a GC or a TC in the Republic of Cyprus.

If only we could expend all this energy in truly trying to find ways that connect us, ways that CAN lead to the re-unification of our island. We are already a miniature state. Creating two smaller states out of a miniature one borders the ridiculous. A succesful marriage is based on a premise of compromise. If a husband and a wife try to be proven right all the time then one will have to be wrong and this is exactly what should be avoided at all cost if divorce should not be an option. Let's not be right let's be peaceful and happy and let's forgive in both directions for the sake of our children!

[74LB]

If the objective in these debates is to be right then all these long discussion threads about the Cyprus Problem will ever be is just empty debates. Do not get me wrong healthy debates are good and more often than not lead to a conclusion even if the conclusion is the cliche "we will agree that we disagree" (not an acceptable result for me but better than attacking each other forever). The problem with THESE debates is that they are not healthy because they almost without exception end up becoming personal attacks. It would be great if everyone made an effort to debate the issues without getting personal. I know this can be difficult sometimes especially if the person feels personally wronged by the other side. I do not think anyone can argue that a war is a good thing, but it happened to us...all of us. Now we have to find ways to undo what the war has created.

Allow me to speak from a selfish point of view to make a point. I prefer to be peaceful and happy than right and miserable. The current situation in Cyprus does not make me happy, quite the opposite it makes me very unhappy. I can argue the GC side to death but if my objective is to win the debate as a GC I am setting up myself for a huge disappointment. The parallels with the previous conquerors that have been ruling Cyprus for hundreds of years do not apply here in my opinion. This is not about safeguarding the Greek civilization on an occupied island. The Greek culture and civilization are safe. Nobody is threatening its existence whatever the plan is called...Annan or otherwise. The diffrence now is the European Union. We have to accept however that the TCs are Cypriots too and they have a right to live on this island not as guests but as citizens with the same rights as the GCs. Democracy could have never worked in our situation since the TCs are a large minority. When the result of voting is always aniticipated to be the same in favor of the same majority i.e. the GCs then this is not a true democracy. If a TC had the same chance to be elected President of the Republic as a GC this would be a true democracy. Unfortuntely our situation is comparable to the racism in the US. The whites agains the blacks. It took the US hundreds of years to somewhat overcome the racist divide and elect a black President. This is true democracy. In our case the only way to guarantee true Democracy at this juncture is to allow the TCs to be an entity in a Federation with certain rights guranteed to them until we reach a stage when it will not matter if a Cypriot Citizen is a GC or a TC in the Republic of Cyprus.

If only we could expend all this energy in truly trying to find ways that connect us, ways that CAN lead to the re-unification of our island. We are already a miniature state. Creating two smaller states out of a miniature one borders the ridiculous. A succesful marriage is based on a premise of compromise. If a husband and a wife try to be proven right all the time then one will have to be wrong and this is exactly what should be avoided at all cost if divorce should not be an option. Let's not be right let's be peaceful and happy and let's forgive in both directions for the sake of our children!

Some fine words indeed.

We need to realise that we all need to current round of negotiations between the 2 sets of leaders to succeed otherwise negotiated partition may be the only option remaining.

[Oracle]

If the objective in these debates is to be right then all these long discussion threads about the Cyprus Problem will ever be is just empty debates. Do not get me wrong healthy debates are good and more often than not lead to a conclusion even if the conclusion is the cliche "we will agree that we disagree" (not an acceptable result for me but better than attacking each other forever). The problem with THESE debates is that they are not healthy because they almost without exception end up becoming personal attacks. It would be great if everyone made an effort to debate the issues without getting personal. I know this can be difficult sometimes especially if the person feels personally wronged by the other side. I do not think anyone can argue that a war is a good thing, but it happened to us...all of us. Now we have to find ways to undo what the war has created.

Allow me to speak from a selfish point of view to make a point. I prefer to be peaceful and happy than right and miserable. The current situation in Cyprus does not make me happy, quite the opposite it makes me very unhappy. I can argue the GC side to death but if my objective is to win the debate as a GC I am setting up myself for a huge disappointment. The parallels with the previous conquerors that have been ruling Cyprus for hundreds of years do not apply here in my opinion. This is not about safeguarding the Greek civilization on an occupied island. The Greek culture and civilization are safe. Nobody is threatening its existence whatever the plan is called...Annan or otherwise. The diffrence now is the European Union. We have to accept however that the TCs are Cypriots too and they have a right to live on this island not as guests but as citizens with the same rights as the GCs. Democracy could have never worked in our situation since the TCs are a large minority. When the result of voting is always aniticipated to be the same in favor of the same majority i.e. the GCs then this is not a true democracy. If a TC had the same chance to be elected President of the Republic as a GC this would be a true democracy. Unfortuntely our situation is comparable to the racism in the US. The whites agains the blacks. It took the US hundreds of years to somewhat overcome the racist divide and elect a black President. This is true democracy. In our case the only way to guarantee true Democracy at this juncture is to allow the TCs to be an entity in a Federation with certain rights guranteed to them until we reach a stage when it will not matter if a Cypriot Citizen is a GC or a TC in the Republic of Cyprus.

If only we could expend all this energy in truly trying to find ways that connect us, ways that CAN lead to the re-unification of our island. We are already a miniature state. Creating two smaller states out of a miniature one borders the ridiculous. A succesful marriage is based on a premise of compromise. If a husband and a wife try to be proven right all the time then one will have to be wrong and this is exactly what should be avoided at all cost if divorce should not be an option. Let's not be right let's be peaceful and happy and let's forgive in both directions for the sake of our children!

Some fine words indeed.

We need to realise that we all need to current round of negotiations between the 2 sets of leaders to succeed otherwise negotiated partition may be the only option remaining.

I do not know of any GC who would argue against the right of TCs to reside in a whole and undivided Cyprus, as they once surely did, despite their gripes, shared by us also.

However, from where I am standing, it is the GCs that do not have the right to reside in Cyprus either as guests or citizens ... except for residing in a fragment of what used to be just Cyprus!

[Sotos]

If the objective in these debates is to be right then all these long discussion threads about the Cyprus Problem will ever be is just empty debates. Do not get me wrong healthy debates are good and more often than not lead to a conclusion even if the conclusion is the cliche "we will agree that we disagree" (not an acceptable result for me but better than attacking each other forever). The problem with THESE debates is that they are not healthy because they almost without exception end up becoming personal attacks. It would be great if everyone made an effort to debate the issues without getting personal. I know this can be difficult sometimes especially if the person feels personally wronged by the other side. I do not think anyone can argue that a war is a good thing, but it happened to us...all of us. Now we have to find ways to undo what the war has created.

Allow me to speak from a selfish point of view to make a point. I prefer to be peaceful and happy than right and miserable. The current situation in Cyprus does not make me happy, quite the opposite it makes me very unhappy. I can argue the GC side to death but if my objective is to win the debate as a GC I am setting up myself for a huge disappointment. The parallels with the previous conquerors that have been ruling Cyprus for hundreds of years do not apply here in my opinion. This is not about safeguarding the Greek civilization on an occupied island. The Greek culture and civilization are safe. Nobody is threatening its existence whatever the plan is called...Annan or otherwise. The diffrence now is the European Union. We have to accept however that the TCs are Cypriots too and they have a right to live on this island not as guests but as citizens with the same rights as the GCs. Democracy could have never worked in our situation since the TCs are a large minority. When the result of voting is always aniticipated to be the same in favor of the same majority i.e. the GCs then this is not a true democracy. If a TC had the same chance to be elected President of the Republic as a GC this would be a true democracy. Unfortuntely our situation is comparable to the racism in the US. The whites agains the blacks. It took the US hundreds of years to somewhat overcome the racist divide and elect a black President. This is true democracy. In our case the only way to guarantee true Democracy at this juncture is to allow the TCs to be an entity in a Federation with certain rights guranteed to them until we reach a stage when it will not matter if a Cypriot Citizen is a GC or a TC in the Republic of Cyprus.

If only we could expend all this energy in truly trying to find ways that connect us, ways that CAN lead to the re-unification of our island. We are already a miniature state. Creating two smaller states out of a miniature one borders the ridiculous. A succesful marriage is based on a premise of compromise. If a husband and a wife try to be proven right all the time then one will have to be wrong and this is exactly what should be avoided at all cost if divorce should not be an option. Let's not be right let's be peaceful and happy and let's forgive in both directions for the sake of our children!

Some fine words indeed.

We need to realise that we all need to current round of negotiations between the 2 sets of leaders to succeed otherwise negotiated partition may be the only option remaining.

The only option remaining is the liberation of our country. If you want that kind of democracy then why don't you apply it to Turkey with the Kurds? Double faced criminal hypocrites!

[kurupetos]

If the objective in these debates is to be right then all these long discussion threads about the Cyprus Problem will ever be is just empty debates. Do not get me wrong healthy debates are good and more often than not lead to a conclusion even if the conclusion is the cliche "we will agree that we disagree" (not an acceptable result for me but better than attacking each other forever). The problem with THESE debates is that they are not healthy because they almost without exception end up becoming personal attacks. It would be great if everyone made an effort to debate the issues without getting personal. I know this can be difficult sometimes especially if the person feels personally wronged by the other side. I do not think anyone can argue that a war is a good thing, but it happened to us...all of us. Now we have to find ways to undo what the war has created.

Allow me to speak from a selfish point of view to make a point. I prefer to be peaceful and happy than right and miserable. The current situation in Cyprus does not make me happy, quite the opposite it makes me very unhappy. I can argue the GC side to death but if my objective is to win the debate as a GC I am setting up myself for a huge disappointment. The parallels with the previous conquerors that have been ruling Cyprus for hundreds of years do not apply here in my opinion. This is not about safeguarding the Greek civilization on an occupied island. The Greek culture and civilization are safe. Nobody is threatening its existence whatever the plan is called...Annan or otherwise. The diffrence now is the European Union. We have to accept however that the TCs are Cypriots too and they have a right to live on this island not as guests but as citizens with the same rights as the GCs. Democracy could have never worked in our situation since the TCs are a large minority. When the result of voting is always aniticipated to be the same in favor of the same majority i.e. the GCs then this is not a true democracy. If a TC had the same chance to be elected President of the Republic as a GC this would be a true democracy. Unfortuntely our situation is comparable to the racism in the US. The whites agains the blacks. It took the US hundreds of years to somewhat overcome the racist divide and elect a black President. This is true democracy. In our case the only way to guarantee true Democracy at this juncture is to allow the TCs to be an entity in a Federation with certain rights guranteed to them until we reach a stage when it will not matter if a Cypriot Citizen is a GC or a TC in the Republic of Cyprus.

If only we could expend all this energy in truly trying to find ways that connect us, ways that CAN lead to the re-unification of our island. We are already a miniature state. Creating two smaller states out of a miniature one borders the ridiculous. A succesful marriage is based on a premise of compromise. If a husband and a wife try to be proven right all the time then one will have to be wrong and this is exactly what should be avoided at all cost if divorce should not be an option. Let's not be right let's be peaceful and happy and let's forgive in both directions for the sake of our children!

This is a load of bollocks. It is either one country or partition. There is no intermediate solution.