Cyprus-Forum.com

[Bananiot]

Nikitas, here we are in 2008 closing in on 2009 and still we cannot tell the truth and only the truth. We are taught so much lies at school which our lives till death. Take for example the start of the Greek liberation struggle in 1821. We are told till today that it started on March 25 when Palaion Patron Germanos raised the banner of revolution at Ayia Lavra. The truth is that the uprising started earlier and on March 25 there was nobody at Ayia Lavra. There was no banner as such and the clergy, including Palaion Patron Germanos were against the uprising because they were doing quite well under the Ottomans, unlike the ordinary people, christian and muslim alike.

Our history books write only about the atrocities committed by our enemies. They never mention the atrocities committed by us, like in Tripolitsa in 1822, in Turkey in 1919-1922 and in Cyprus between 1963 - 1974.

In Greece today, a muslim who wants to be referred to as a Turk, cannot call himself a Turk. On the contrary, a Turkish citizen in Instambul can say publically that he is a Greek. Officially, Greece justifies this by claiming the absurd, that there is only one minority in Greece, the muslims.

The Athens FIR (which is violated by the Turks) concerns only the Greeks. Normally, the aerial space coincides with the water space. Greece has a water space of 6 nautical miles but it decided to extend the air space to 12 miles./ Is there an international organisation that recognises this?

Nikos Dimou, from where I took all the above, wonders: Could it be that the definition of a nation is as Karl W. Deutsch[i] (1912-1992) says, that is, "a nation is a group of people united by a common mistake regarding its origin and a collective hostility towards its neighbours".

[Piratis]

Bananiot, what you forget is that it is the Turks who invaded and took our lands. We are not the ones who went to Mongolia to harm them. Obviously saying to them "Can you let us free please" didn't work. We had to fight them to get our freedom, and this was our right. Do you want Greeks now to apologize because Turks died while Greeks were liberating their own lands?

Nikitas, here we are in 2008 closing in on 2009 and still we cannot tell the truth and only the truth. We are taught so much lies at school which our lives till death. Take for example the start of the Greek liberation struggle in 1821. We are told till today that it started on March 25 when Palaion Patron Germanos raised the banner of revolution at Ayia Lavra. The truth is that the uprising started earlier and on March 25 there was nobody at Ayia Lavra. There was no banner as such and the clergy, including Palaion Patron Germanos were against the uprising because they were doing quite well under the Ottomans, unlike the ordinary people, christian and muslim alike.

Personally I don't care what Palaion Patron Germanos did. Such stories are always more of a legend than reality. But what you said about "ordinary people, christian and muslim alike" is not accurate at all. The Ottomans managed to turn the most prosperous part of Europe during the Byzantine era, into the worst part of Europe, and there was not much prosperity going around. Still, the Muslims were way better off under the Ottomans than the Christians and they definitely didn't support the revolution.

[Nikitas]

Bananiot,

You got your facts in a mixer.

Greece claims 10 miles air space and 6 miles sea space. This has been the case since 1930 and Turkey never dispited it till 1976, the date is important.

The FIR (flight information region) has absolutely nothing to do with the territorial space. FIR concerns civilian flights and decrees that military planes flying IN THE SAME AIR SPACE as civilian airliners must notify re their flight plans. Turkey refuses this so Turkish jets buzz civilian planes, often foreign ones.

I was taught about the Greek atrocities of Tripolitsa by my teacher mr Yangoulis in 4th grade at the Mantzourio primary school in Famagusta in the 50s. I was also taught by the same man about the start of the Greek revolution and the opposition of the clergy.

Greek papers, TV and radio often cover the actions of the Greek army in Asia Minor and tell it like it is.

The Greek insistence on the term Moslem is based on the strict application of the Treaty of Lausanne which works both ways. So under the treaty, to give a for instance, the religious leaders of either minority is a matter of administrative act. This Turkey finds perfectly acceptable when appointing the patriarch but objectionable in the case of the Mufti of northern Greece.

Turkey has a consulate in Komotini which does nothing but organize the Turks of Thrace against the host state. Funnily these people are increasing in numbers while the Greek minority of Turkey has diminished to less than 2000 people. The two minorities were about equal in the 30s.

As for Imvros and Tenedos you should go there Bananiot to see the treatment reserved for the locals. It is a study in state cynicism.

I do not doubt that massacres took place in Cyprus in 1963 and 1964. It was hardly a one sided business as we see from the statements of the UN peace keeper chief who said that casualties were about even.

Please do not quote Nikos Dimou to me. There are other Greek intellectuals who are more serious and consistent thatn that former ad man. A philosopher who becomes rich selling coke-a-cola does not convince me.

[Bananiot]

You are allowed to think as you do about Nikos Dimou. There thousands who adore him and find his rationalist approach very refreshing in this populist jungle we find ourselves in. You talk about the Treaty of Lausanne but I was talking about the absurd incistence of the Greek government that there is only one minority in Greece, the muslim minority. What about the Gypsies, do they not constitute a minority? There are other minorities in Greece, as you probably know, some religious some linguistic. Why is it a crime to refer to these groups of people as minorities?

Yes, I did get my facts in a mix concerning the air space. It should be 10 of course, but the issue I was making is still valid. Should it not be 6, like the sea space, as stated by inernational law?

Mr Yiangoullis was a good teacher, especially if he is the same Yiangoullis that I met in London. The reality now in Cyprus is not what you knew with Mr Yiangoullis. Here we only teach our pupils myths.

Having said the above, I need to point out that am not in the business of comparing and contrasting Greece and Turkey. Turkey has many things to put right, but I am more concerned with Greece for obvious reasons. There is no doubt that if rationality prevails in both countries, Cyprus will be better off.

[DT.]

You are allowed to think as you do about Nikos Dimou. There thousands who adore him and find his rationalist approach very refreshing in this populist jungle we find ourselves in. You talk about the Treaty of Lausanne but I was talking about the absurd incistence of the Greek government that there is only one minority in Greece, the muslim minority. What about the Gypsies, do they not constitute a minority? There are other minorities in Greece, as you probably know, some religious some linguistic. Why is it a crime to refer to these groups of people as minorities?

Yes, I did get my facts in a mix concerning the air space. It should be 10 of course, but the issue I was making is still valid. Should it not be 6, like the sea space, as stated by inernational law?Mr Yiangoullis was a good teacher, especially if he is the same Yiangoullis that I met in London. The reality now in Cyprus is not what you knew with Mr Yiangoullis. Here we only teach our pupils myths.

Having said the above, I need to point out that am not in the business of comparing and contrasting Greece and Turkey. Turkey has many things to put right, but I am more concerned with Greece for obvious reasons. There is no doubt that if rationality prevails in both countries, Cyprus will be better off.

No bananiot. they should both be 12 miles as stated by international lsw. \turkey's cassus belli is what stops this. Nothing legal about it.

[Oracle]

I was taught about the 1821 Greek uprising and Byron's role, in a UK school, as part of my "O" level History classes ... what is Bananiot talking about?

[Bananiot]

Go back to sleep Oracle, you haven't the faintest of what we are talking about.

[DT.]

You are allowed to think as you do about Nikos Dimou. There thousands who adore him and find his rationalist approach very refreshing in this populist jungle we find ourselves in. You talk about the Treaty of Lausanne but I was talking about the absurd incistence of the Greek government that there is only one minority in Greece, the muslim minority. What about the Gypsies, do they not constitute a minority? There are other minorities in Greece, as you probably know, some religious some linguistic. Why is it a crime to refer to these groups of people as minorities?

Yes, I did get my facts in a mix concerning the air space. It should be 10 of course, but the issue I was making is still valid. Should it not be 6, like the sea space, as stated by inernational law?Mr Yiangoullis was a good teacher, especially if he is the same Yiangoullis that I met in London. The reality now in Cyprus is not what you knew with Mr Yiangoullis. Here we only teach our pupils myths.

Having said the above, I need to point out that am not in the business of comparing and contrasting Greece and Turkey. Turkey has many things to put right, but I am more concerned with Greece for obvious reasons. There is no doubt that if rationality prevails in both countries, Cyprus will be better off.

No bananiot. they should both be 12 miles as stated by international lsw. \turkey's cassus belli is what stops this. Nothing legal about it.

god forbid you ever blame turkey for something bananiot

[Piratis]

Why is it a crime to refer to these groups of people as minorities?

Maybe you should ask your TC friends who are an 18% minority and they don't want to be referred as such.

Personally I agree with you. If there is a minority then you should call it a minority. You shouldn't try to upgrade or downgrade it.

What puzzles me with you Bananiot is your inconsistency, or rather your anti-Greek and pro-Turk consistency.

You excuse all the hostility and injustice that comes from Turkey because you concluded that this is how the "real world" works, and it is not their fault for acting hostile, but our fault for not realizing that this is how the "real world" is. But then why don't you tell those Muslims, gypsies etc in Greece to just lump it, because that is how the real world is and they can't do shit about it, and instead you come here to support their cause?

So how about some consistency on some principles Bananiot? How about supporting the same thing for the minorities in Greece, the minorities in Turkey and the minorities in Cyprus?

[Bananiot]

It was our national poet who repeated "only the truth serves the national interests" but you wouldn't know about it. You think picking f(cyber) fights with Turkish extremists will save the day for us. Couldn't be more wrong.