Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

So we say we want to live in a truly democratic united country,but we are planning to achieve this by War,the most undemocratic way of them all...

We will wait for 1000 years if necessary,groom 3-4-5 or more generations to hate the "enemy",and then send them into battle to liberate our homeland....

And we believe that ,once the liberation is achieved,we will pick up the pieces,shed all the bitterness and hatred from our hearts,instantly turn into all-Compassionate Cypriots with no foreign attachments,guarantees or allegiances,and live happily ever after in peace and harmony...Please someone,tell me we are joking,or tell me at least we are writing a senario for some computer game....

Your damn right!

We want to live in a truly democratic and united country with all our rights intact, just like they are in any other EU country. And the way we plan to achieve this is by being patient and await the inevitable changes that will occur in our region.

We are not going to legitimise the partition by accepting the BBF, as this would inevitably lead to constitutional and inter communal violence. This would then result in PERMANENT PARTITION with full international recognition, when you secede from the union. We will not accept any state of affairs which will result in you legitimately creating a Turkish Republic in Cyprus. We will not surrender, and the war will continue for as long as it takes. We will implement the EU Acquis over ALL of Cyprus.

True Democracy and Human Rights are so often achieved through sacrifice. And if this is what it takes, then we will proceed down this path when the balance of power changes. We are not going to sign any paper which would result in our enslavement to you.

Okey,Paphidis...Lets see how much "sacrifice" you are prepared to make...Let's say the power of balanced has changed...You are ready to go to war to liberate the North...There are 40,000 Turkish soldiers and about 500,000 civilians in the North...Lets assume these figures will stay the same... How many of these Turkish soldiers are you prepared to kill???? Half??? All 40,000????And what is an acceptable collateral damage??? How many of the civilians are you prepared to kill??? 100,000??? 200,000????
How many of the NGC soldiers are you prepared to sacrifice???? Half???Three quarters????How many of the civilians in the ROC???? Half???More than half??? Assume that you are the victorious general the day after,standing there surveying the scenes of devastation and carnage...And you just realise that Turkey is still there over the horizon,reorganising and planning their counter attack....How peaceful and comforting would life be in your liberated Cyprus???? Are you nuts or what???

[Paphitis]

So we say we want to live in a truly democratic united country,but we are planning to achieve this by War,the most undemocratic way of them all...

We will wait for 1000 years if necessary,groom 3-4-5 or more generations to hate the "enemy",and then send them into battle to liberate our homeland....

And we believe that ,once the liberation is achieved,we will pick up the pieces,shed all the bitterness and hatred from our hearts,instantly turn into all-Compassionate Cypriots with no foreign attachments,guarantees or allegiances,and live happily ever after in peace and harmony...Please someone,tell me we are joking,or tell me at least we are writing a senario for some computer game....

Your damn right!

We want to live in a truly democratic and united country with all our rights intact, just like they are in any other EU country. And the way we plan to achieve this is by being patient and await the inevitable changes that will occur in our region.

We are not going to legitimise the partition by accepting the BBF, as this would inevitably lead to constitutional and inter communal violence. This would then result in PERMANENT PARTITION with full international recognition, when you secede from the union. We will not accept any state of affairs which will result in you legitimately creating a Turkish Republic in Cyprus. We will not surrender, and the war will continue for as long as it takes. We will implement the EU Acquis over ALL of Cyprus.

True Democracy and Human Rights are so often achieved through sacrifice. And if this is what it takes, then we will proceed down this path when the balance of power changes. We are not going to sign any paper which would result in our enslavement to you.

Okey,Paphidis...Lets see how much "sacrifice" you are prepared to make...Let's say the power of balanced has changed...You are ready to go to war to liberate the North...There are 40,000 Turkish soldiers and about 500,000 civilians in the North...Lets assume these figures will stay the same... How many of these Turkish soldiers are you prepared to kill???? Half??? All 40,000????And what is an acceptable collateral damage??? How many of the civilians are you prepared to kill??? 100,000??? 200,000????
How many of the NGC soldiers are you prepared to sacrifice???? Half???Three quarters????How many of the civilians in the ROC???? Half???More than half??? Assume that you are the victorious general the day after,standing there surveying the scenes of devastation and carnage...And you just realise that Turkey is still there over the horizon,reorganising and planning their counter attack....How peaceful and comforting would life be in your liberated Cyprus???? Are you nuts or what???

Yes Bir, I am nuts!

And there are many more just like me.

Firstly, before we can discuss in an intelligent manner, go away and re-read my posts. Because I never made mention of any war. I only stated that we will be patient and await for the Balance of Power to change, and when this happens, then any scenario is possible, from massive revolution, Turkey collapsing or disintegrating, or the horrid scenario you paint above.

As for collateral damage, you know what the official line will be. "We are so sorry, and we are making every effort to limit collateral damage as much as we can". We will just roll out some footage on CNN and showcase our pinpoint bombings and tell the world how good and responsible people we are and express regret over any collateral damage. Sound familiar?

You keep mentioning that in a few years the population of the "trnc" will be 500,000 or 1 million. Such scare campaigns do not wash with me, because by that time the TC population will be extinct, and all I will see are 500,000 or 1 million invaders. Your scare tactic will not work and it will most certainly not scare me into handing Turkey control over my island.

If it were up to me, and the balance did change, then I would have no hesitation in turning the "trnc" into a shade of charcoal black. That is the only way I am going to get my island back, and I am willing to take it that far!

So may God have mercy on my soul. OMG, I am religious all of a sudden!

[BirKibrisli]

So we say we want to live in a truly democratic united country,but we are planning to achieve this by War,the most undemocratic way of them all...

Ever heard of revolution Bir? Where the people (the great majority) has revolted against their rulers (often foreign) to gain freedom and democracy?

I find nothing undemocratic in a revolution which aims to bring democracy and freedom to the people.

Of course we all hope that democracy and freedom can be achieved in another way, and I hope that this will be the case for Cyprus.

What is certain is that a ruler never gave up his rule voluntarily. He had to be forced to do it. It is unrealistic to expect Turkey to give up her control over north Cyprus unless she is forced to do so. Of course there are many different ways that force can be applied, but all of them will require a change in the balance of power.

I am glad to hear that "balance of power" does not mean only military power...Of course revolutions are perfectly okey,dear Piratis,bu where will this revolution come from???? If it is strictly GC vs Turkey type of revolution I doubt it can ever succeed....We need to get the backing of the majority of the TCs....And that is not as difficult as it might seem...given that there are only 80,000 TCs left in the North all we need is to attrack 40,000 TCs to the areas controled by the ROC...But do you see any such attempts in the Republic??? Where are all those measures to make it very attractive for TCs to return home???I absolutely agree,Turkey will not leave on her own accord...I just can't see where this balance of power change is going to come from..You know the reason for my alarm...Each passing year brings the TC community a bit closer to extinction...But unless the ROC gets wise and turns this into GC and TC together vs Turkey type of geopolitical issue we are all doomed...This is no idle threat...You will have 1 Million settlers in Cyprus during our lifetime...And the only place they will go after that would be the South...I hope I never have to say "I told You so!"...

[BirKibrisli]

So we say we want to live in a truly democratic united country,but we are planning to achieve this by War,the most undemocratic way of them all...

We will wait for 1000 years if necessary,groom 3-4-5 or more generations to hate the "enemy",and then send them into battle to liberate our homeland....

And we believe that ,once the liberation is achieved,we will pick up the pieces,shed all the bitterness and hatred from our hearts,instantly turn into all-Compassionate Cypriots with no foreign attachments,guarantees or allegiances,and live happily ever after in peace and harmony...Please someone,tell me we are joking,or tell me at least we are writing a senario for some computer game....

Your damn right!

We want to live in a truly democratic and united country with all our rights intact, just like they are in any other EU country. And the way we plan to achieve this is by being patient and await the inevitable changes that will occur in our region.

We are not going to legitimise the partition by accepting the BBF, as this would inevitably lead to constitutional and inter communal violence. This would then result in PERMANENT PARTITION with full international recognition, when you secede from the union. We will not accept any state of affairs which will result in you legitimately creating a Turkish Republic in Cyprus. We will not surrender, and the war will continue for as long as it takes. We will implement the EU Acquis over ALL of Cyprus.

True Democracy and Human Rights are so often achieved through sacrifice. And if this is what it takes, then we will proceed down this path when the balance of power changes. We are not going to sign any paper which would result in our enslavement to you.

Okey,Paphidis...Lets see how much "sacrifice" you are prepared to make...Let's say the power of balanced has changed...You are ready to go to war to liberate the North...There are 40,000 Turkish soldiers and about 500,000 civilians in the North...Lets assume these figures will stay the same... How many of these Turkish soldiers are you prepared to kill???? Half??? All 40,000????And what is an acceptable collateral damage??? How many of the civilians are you prepared to kill??? 100,000??? 200,000????
How many of the NGC soldiers are you prepared to sacrifice???? Half???Three quarters????How many of the civilians in the ROC???? Half???More than half??? Assume that you are the victorious general the day after,standing there surveying the scenes of devastation and carnage...And you just realise that Turkey is still there over the horizon,reorganising and planning their counter attack....How peaceful and comforting would life be in your liberated Cyprus???? Are you nuts or what???

Yes Bir, I am nuts!

And there are many more just like me.

Firstly, before we can discuss in an intelligent manner, go away and re-read my posts. Because I never made mention of any war. I only stated that we will be patient and await for the Balance of Power to change, and when this happens, then any scenario is possible, from massive revolution, Turkey collapsing or disintegrating, or the horrid scenario you paint above.

As for collateral damage, you know what the official line will be. "We are so sorry, and we are making every effort to limit collateral damage as much as we can". We will just roll out some footage on CNN and showcase our pinpoint bombings and tell the world how good and responsible people we are and express regret over any collateral damage. Sound familiar?

You keep mentioning that in a few years the population of the "trnc" will be 500,000 or 1 million. Such scare campaigns do not wash with me, because by that time the TC population will be extinct, and all I will see are 500,000 or 1 million invaders. Your scare tactic will not work and it will most certainly not scare me into handing Turkey control over my island.

If it were up to me, and the balance did change, then I would have no hesitation in turning the "trnc" into a shade of charcoal black. That is the only way I am going to get my island back, and I am willing to take it that far!

So may God have mercy on my soul. OMG, I am religious all of a sudden!

Good to know we are dealing with a self-confessed nut case here... albeit a religous one...

There are 500,000 settlers in the trnc as we speak,dear Paphidis...I know this from the horse's mouth...Don't ask me how...I am not trying to scare anyone into anything...Just saying it the way it is...I am very sad about the extinction of the TC identity...But most of them do not give a damn about it anyway...The struggle now is to save the GC presence and GC identity in Cyprus in the long term...Then the TC identity will live in the GCs...I can then send my children to Paphos to learn a bit about their father's cultural and social background...Your solution scares me because it sounds very similar to the American solution in Vietnam...We will save you from the yoke of communism,the Americans promised the Vietnamese...We will kill you all before they can get to you...do you think that was a wise policy??? Why do you want to practise it in Cyprus now...??? Sorry I forgot,you did admit you were nuts...

[Bananiot]

Birkibrisli, Kardash. It is very difficult to even attempt to make a meaningful debate with the arteriosclerotics. Nothing touches them. I spent last week end reading a book which was like a biography of Dervis Kavazoglu. It is written by his close friend Christakis Vanezos. Kavazoglu writes about a time in 1953 when a Turkish Cypriot dance group was invited to perform in Hadjihampis cinema in Famagusta. A crowd of about 2000 people attended and at the end the whole cinema was literally shaking with the slogans for Turkish-Greek friendship and solidarity. “People were embracing each other and crying”, Kavazoglu wrote.

I think it is good to remember these fine times of the past. It renews our hopes that at the end this kind of society awaits us if we remain steadfast in the quest for solution to a problem that has been created because foreign interests could rely on the fanatics of both sides to wreak havoc in the relations of ordinary people and spread their poison in the core of the society.

People have been asking (I am talking about people and not misanthropists of the likes of Pantheman, Piratis, Nikiphoros, GR (sadly), Paphidis and some others) why I insist on the Annan Plan. I will attempt to answer for the benefit of friends and not the misanthropists who only understand what suits their stereotypic view of the world. May be I have written about this before, I do not remember, I will risk it, however.

The Annan Plan had grey areas, there is no denying this. The question that a serious person can ask, however, is this: Can we expect anything better in the future? We all know the Cypriot proverb that says «κάθε πέρυσι και καλύτερα» meaning feely translated (in relation to solution plans) the previous one is always better than the one pending. In 2004 we thought that once we get into the exclusive club (EU) we could finally be able to negotiate from an advantageous position and achieve a better solution plan because Turkey would be willing to lower the bar since it eagerly wanted entry to the EU too. We understood that Europe wanted Turkey in and that Turkey was ready to do anything to get in. Yet, we did not understand (because it did not suit our stereotypic and epidermal way of thinking) that environments change and windows open and close. Visionary people who warned that the window of opportunity will not stay open for ever were crucified as traitors, defeatists, good boys etc.

Our “No” meant that the occupied lands are not part of the EU and now we are not, as we should have been had we said "Yes" trying to implement a difficult, I admit, plan of bringing Greek and Turkish Cypriots together. We have all witnessed since then that instead of the RoC trying to achieve its objectives within the EU, other members of the EU are using the RoC to achieve their objectives, that is the rejection of Turkey. Of course, sane people understand that if it came to the rejection of Turkey, we will shoulder the bill. As the accession of Turkey becomes more remote, it is tragic to see, that the accession of Cyprus, contrary to our wishes, is becoming a lever for the partition of Cyprus.

Words aside, we have two paths in front of us. It is either a velvet partition or federation. There is no other way about it. Federation can only be brought about with an Annan type plan. Such a plan needs to be thoroughly explained because it has been daemonised in the past and there is so much bias against it. There is also the danger that the new plan may not be as good as the Annan plan, because «κάθε πέρυσι και καλύτερα». We need to explain to people that Federation by itself gives equal rights on decisions to minority and majority. Most important, the complexity of the plan (sure, it will not be simple, like one man one vote) gives the magnitude of mistrust that exists between the two communities, which was cultivated with much blood spilt from the 50’s to 1974.

The easy solution is partition and people like Kifeas has eventually subscribed to the idea, but many Cypriots, from both communities, will choose the difficult path, which is the only way to save Cyprus, in the long term.

[Get Real!]

Birkibrisli, Kardash. It is very difficult to even attempt to make a meaningful debate with the arteriosclerotics.

First we were "rejectionists" and now this! Whatever next?

[Get Real!]

There are 500,000 settlers in the trnc as we speak,dear Paphidis...I know this from the horse's mouth...Don't ask me how...I am not trying to scare anyone into anything...Just saying it the way it is...

You're not exactly famous for your facts & figures Bir but this one takes the prize! I'd like to know how a corrupt, disorganized, and bankrupt entity like the "TRNC" can possibly sustain the alleged 600,000 odd people...

The struggle now is to save the GC presence and GC identity in Cyprus in the long term...

I assure you these fat and greedy, lovers of the good life need no survival movement...

[DT.]

Bananiot, I'll ask for one thing only. Respect to the Greek Cypriot people of this island. A plan that offered NOTHING to the GC community other than a very doubtful 6% more land is a slap in the face and a humiliation.

In exchange for this 6% land here's what the TC community would have received and I urge you to prove me wrong if you can.

For 6% more land to the GC's this is what they will give

1) 24 seats from the 48 seats in the senate
2) A revolving Presidential council hereby weakening the executive govt of this island and providing more power to the constituent states.
3) An equal constituent state to 80% of the population
4) A revitalised treaty of Guarantee over the entire island for Turkey
5) Continental shelf rights for Turkey
6) Legitimacy and European Union membership for the TC's
7) The majority of the complex property solution proposed by Annan to be paid up by the GC's
8 ) A number equal to only 18% of the tc's of Gc's will be allowed to return to their homes in the north for 33 years and after that it can increase to only 33%
9) 45,000 settlers can remain
10) permanently based turkish and greek troops
11) Permanent derogation's from the EU on the 3 freedoms
12) The Republic of Cyprus is dissolved.
13)no hierarchy of the constituent state laws as in te US where Federal law is above all else.
14) Cyprus will be excluded from the European defense policy
15) Continental shelf granted to the Bases.

There are many more.

Now can someone list what the TC's compromised in this new Cyprus? What are they giving up in order to begin this new Cyprus with a spirit of friendship and joint compromise. Because the way I see it, one is doing the giving and the other the taking.

The fact that this plan was rejected will make it even more difficult for an even worse plan to be presented to the people. Amongst Christofias's blunders he has also negotiated strongly that there can be no guarantees in the new constitution. Is this not a result of knowing that the GC's will never accept something like this as demonstrated by the Annan plan?

Once again, I would encourage anyone to post a list of Turkish/TC concessions as I have above.

[Bananiot]

I am afraid you have missed the essence of what I wrote DT.

[Paphitis]

So we say we want to live in a truly democratic united country,but we are planning to achieve this by War,the most undemocratic way of them all...

We will wait for 1000 years if necessary,groom 3-4-5 or more generations to hate the "enemy",and then send them into battle to liberate our homeland....

And we believe that ,once the liberation is achieved,we will pick up the pieces,shed all the bitterness and hatred from our hearts,instantly turn into all-Compassionate Cypriots with no foreign attachments,guarantees or allegiances,and live happily ever after in peace and harmony...Please someone,tell me we are joking,or tell me at least we are writing a senario for some computer game....

Your damn right!

We want to live in a truly democratic and united country with all our rights intact, just like they are in any other EU country. And the way we plan to achieve this is by being patient and await the inevitable changes that will occur in our region.

We are not going to legitimise the partition by accepting the BBF, as this would inevitably lead to constitutional and inter communal violence. This would then result in PERMANENT PARTITION with full international recognition, when you secede from the union. We will not accept any state of affairs which will result in you legitimately creating a Turkish Republic in Cyprus. We will not surrender, and the war will continue for as long as it takes. We will implement the EU Acquis over ALL of Cyprus.

True Democracy and Human Rights are so often achieved through sacrifice. And if this is what it takes, then we will proceed down this path when the balance of power changes. We are not going to sign any paper which would result in our enslavement to you.

Okey,Paphidis...Lets see how much "sacrifice" you are prepared to make...Let's say the power of balanced has changed...You are ready to go to war to liberate the North...There are 40,000 Turkish soldiers and about 500,000 civilians in the North...Lets assume these figures will stay the same... How many of these Turkish soldiers are you prepared to kill???? Half??? All 40,000????And what is an acceptable collateral damage??? How many of the civilians are you prepared to kill??? 100,000??? 200,000????
How many of the NGC soldiers are you prepared to sacrifice???? Half???Three quarters????How many of the civilians in the ROC???? Half???More than half??? Assume that you are the victorious general the day after,standing there surveying the scenes of devastation and carnage...And you just realise that Turkey is still there over the horizon,reorganising and planning their counter attack....How peaceful and comforting would life be in your liberated Cyprus???? Are you nuts or what???

Yes Bir, I am nuts!

And there are many more just like me.

Firstly, before we can discuss in an intelligent manner, go away and re-read my posts. Because I never made mention of any war. I only stated that we will be patient and await for the Balance of Power to change, and when this happens, then any scenario is possible, from massive revolution, Turkey collapsing or disintegrating, or the horrid scenario you paint above.

As for collateral damage, you know what the official line will be. "We are so sorry, and we are making every effort to limit collateral damage as much as we can". We will just roll out some footage on CNN and showcase our pinpoint bombings and tell the world how good and responsible people we are and express regret over any collateral damage. Sound familiar?

You keep mentioning that in a few years the population of the "trnc" will be 500,000 or 1 million. Such scare campaigns do not wash with me, because by that time the TC population will be extinct, and all I will see are 500,000 or 1 million invaders. Your scare tactic will not work and it will most certainly not scare me into handing Turkey control over my island.

If it were up to me, and the balance did change, then I would have no hesitation in turning the "trnc" into a shade of charcoal black. That is the only way I am going to get my island back, and I am willing to take it that far!

So may God have mercy on my soul. OMG, I am religious all of a sudden!

Good to know we are dealing with a self-confessed nut case here... albeit a religous one...

There are 500,000 settlers in the trnc as we speak,dear Paphidis...I know this from the horse's mouth...Don't ask me how...I am not trying to scare anyone into anything...Just saying it the way it is...I am very sad about the extinction of the TC identity...But most of them do not give a damn about it anyway...The struggle now is to save the GC presence and GC identity in Cyprus in the long term...Then the TC identity will live in the GCs...I can then send my children to Paphos to learn a bit about their father's cultural and social background...Your solution scares me because it sounds very similar to the American solution in Vietnam...We will save you from the yoke of communism,the Americans promised the Vietnamese...We will kill you all before they can get to you...do you think that was a wise policy??? Why do you want to practise it in Cyprus now...??? Sorry I forgot,you did admit you were nuts...

I was being sarcastic! I am by no means religious. I am far too questioning of religion and of religious doctrines, and am a firm believer in evolution and science. But still I do not disrespect religion or their flocks (sheep).

It is all very well to claim that the population of the "trnc" is 500,000. A bit of evidence to back up your claim would be appreciated. Perhaps you are referring to itinerant workers?

In any case, it makes no difference to me. My views will not change. And I will never become desperate and accept any unfair solution that is tabled. To accept anything short of Basic Democracy and Human Rights is sure as hell going to leave a very bad taste in my mouth, and this can only cause 1 thing. Resentment towards the TCs, which would inevitably lead to violence. Why should we compromise our rights to accommodate the TCs?

As for your Vietnam analogy, it all depends on how you view things. That particular era we were at the height of the Cold War. The French were pulling out and so AUS/USA had to take over. You must remember that Australia had a very big fear in those times that the USSR was to gain a foothold in the Asia Pacific region. Australia had a massive fear that it would be overrun by USSR and forever lose any military advantage in the region. The war was lost, but also won in other respects, as Australia still maintained the balance in the region. These wars are never declared to wipe out Communists. Your view is rather simplistic. To put everything into perspective, Australian troops came face to face with VC and even Russian Troops (Officers). Many people do not appreciate this fact, but if you say that AUS/USA had no right to be in Vietnam (I may agree with you), then the same also applies to USSR. If you say we were not welcome in Vietnam, about half the Vietnamese population (South Vietnam) would disagree with you. Just ask any Vietnamese migrant in Australia, who had to flee Vietnam for their lives.

I am not by any means endorsing The Vietnam War. Just saying that those were different times to today. It was not a war against Communism but was a sad by product of the Cold War and who was going to control the area. If USSR did establish a foothold, then Australia would also have proceeded with plans to develop an arsenal of about 100 nuclear weapons. That is how serious the situation was. Australia was never going to succumb to Soviet dominance.

http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/21019

http://nautilus.rmit.edu.au/forum-repor ... owski.html

http://www.foe.org.au/anti-nuclear/issues/oz/ozbombs/

No I do not want to practice this in Cyprus. That is not what I am saying. I have only stated that I will not accept any unfair and complex solution just to appease Turkey and the TCs. The RoC has legitimacy on her side and will not throw the towel in and surrender. It is Turkey that has waged war against Cyprus and we have every right to use any means available to us. If the Balance does change, and it eventually will, then anything is possible. Turkey will not make any concessions and I do not see the TCs running towards the RoC. They would be welcome if they did. And you would be welcome to live in Paphos as well. By all means teach your children about their heritage. You or your children have absolutely nothing to fear.

There is a much easier way. The TCs could stop insisting on complex solutions which would see their GC compatriots downgraded to second class citizen status. That is if the TCs view the GCs as compatriots?