Cyprus-Forum.com

[Nikephoros]

Your biggest problem is not the "Cyprus problem", it is that you are idiots.

To even convince yourselves at any level that you can meditate a solution with the TRNC and Turkey shows how lost your people are as a group. That your poiltical leaders offer to even contemplate to dismantle your National Guard to make such a solution a reality hints that in a few centuries that Cyprus will be all Turkish, because you will never learn. You are just greedy and amatuers, when its comes to fighting for your identity, homeland and dignity, most Greek Cypriots would not know where to begin.

That so much of your "tribe" even convinces themselves that they are Cypriot Cypriot and votes in an AKEL communist cadre as President, just proves:

"The symptom of the universe is written in your eyes" -- Black Sabbath

You will lose everything to Turkey on a long enough timeline.

[BirKibrisli]

Great! So we will wait another 100 years or 1000 yeras for the balance of power to change so that we can reclaim the north of Cyprus from the Turks!

Can't anybody come up with better arguments and better ideas as to how to solve the current problem other than waiting for the balance of power to change?

Well look whats happened in asia minor! I can't see us marching towards Constantinople or Smyrna or Trabezounta to liberate these lands from the Turks anytime soon. As the generations come and go, the memories of these places will fade away.

The point I am trying to make is that we are living in the NOW, not the future which is totally unpredictable or the past which is history. And the point is, what can we do NOW to save the future of the next generation, to give them something to hope for.

The best way is to come to an agreed solution in Cyprus so that we can move on and develop our island together and to build a future for our children. The only way to change things for the better is to engage the other side, not to push them away.

Thank you for adding your sensible and realistic opinions to this argument,Mikkie...It is sad to see that most people here are now capable only of emotional thinking...While I understand their frustration and bitterness,irrational thinking will not help us get anywhere...As we speak,there are 500,000 occupants of the trnc of whom only about 80,000 (I am being generous) are of real TC stock...If the status quo is allowed to remain within 25 years there will be a least 1 Million settlers in the North...And not many people in the RoC who remembers or wants to return to their former homes...People...You are cutting off your noses to spite your face...Bloody hell...If you think you are able to liberate the North by force just get on with it..Don't wait for another 25 years or however long it might take for "the balance of power to change"...You can sit back and enjoy watching the extermination of the TC identity in the North now...But when the time comes for the extermination of the GC identity in Cyprus you will find no one to feel for you...And I am telling you now the Nikephoroses of this world will just love it and will get their kicks rubbing your noses in it...I am so glad I won't be around to see that day...

[Bananiot]

I am trying to put my feet into my "enemy’s" shoe. This is because I understand that Cyprus will only be free if we together work out a solution to our long standing issue. This is the only way we can get rid of the occupation and all those that propose any other path to freedom (waiting for the balance of power to change etc) are the real grave diggers of our island. War is not a solution even if we had the power to engage because a war only prepares the ground for the next one.

Thus, if I were Turkey, this is what I would have to put up with had Greece decided to extend its territorial water to 12 nautical miles:



I wonder, can Piratis, GR, Paphitis ever put themselves in the shoes of their adversary?

DT, I can understand your difficulty regaring Klerides. You wrote:

Bananiot, I may not buy all the conspiracy theories thrown at this man but I fail to see how a man who invented the Joint Defence Pact with Greece, ordered the S-300 missiles from Russia and performed the biggest single military spending spree on defence this island has ever seen can co-habit with you?

I ask you to go back to 1993 when Klerides was facing George Vasiliou in the Presidential elections back then. He formed a pack with DIKO and EDEK in order to win and he only just scraped through by a mere 800 or so votes, mainly because he adopted, for the sake of the elections, the bankrupt policies of his allies. Having wasted four years going nowhere he let go of DIKO and EDEK and became the man we all know again. Besides the example you cited, he did a more harmful turn of policy by abandoning what Vasiliou has started (Gali set of ideas) and in effect losing four and a half years.

[Tim Drayton]

"I think this is very mistaken thinking. Turkey has earmarked 600 million new Turkish lira by way of subisdy to the TRNC economy in 2008 (source: a speech made by prime-Minister Soyer in July). "

Interesting!

The Turkish Lira has fallen in value by 1/3rd in recent weeks. Turkey has a huge deficit which is getting bigger by the day. There is a massive capital flight from Turkey at the present time. The Turkish government seems to think it is immune from the current economic tsunami that is sweeping the world. Its is trying to increase spending with money that it hasn't got. It will soon be knocking at the door of the IMF again and this time around, IMF help will come with a bigger sting in the tail that in 2001.

Yes, Turkey is a large economy but it is a very fragile one. Turkey will have to face some basic facts also. Likewise the 'trnc' has to face some basic facts as well. Basically, if Turkey suffers then so will the 'trnc'. The harder Turkey hurts the 'trnc' will hurt even harder. It is indeed already happening.

Perhaps the economic crisis will solve the Cyprus problem once and for all?

Turkey will be hit very hard the coming global economic crisis. Don't worry - it will get all the help it needs from the IMF. Turkey is too important for American interests for it to be allowed to get into really hot water. Just a nice enough temperature to keep it docile and under control.

The simple fact is that even if every single person in the TRNC had to be placed in a make-believe state job directly bankrolled by Turkey, the cost would still be chicken feed for Turkey. This was more or less the state of affairs that prevailed in the first few years after 1974 anyway. The Turkish military establishment/deep state clearly perceives there to be a long term benefit in taking control of Cyprus, and is prepared to suffer the necessary short-term pain in acheiving that goal.

[Nikitas]

Bananiot said:

"Correct me If I am wrong, but does Greece mean to have 6 miles of territorial waters (χωρικά ύδατα in Greek) and 10 miles of national air space? Is there another country in the world where the τerritorial water is not the same as the national aerospace? Is it not true that the majority of the dog fights between Greek and Turkish jets take place within this 6 to 10 miles space? Is it not also true that Greek war planes also violate the Turkish aerospace? Is it not true that these daily dogfights are taken as part of the practice routine of both air forces? At the same, has Greece given up on her notion of increasing the territorial waters to 10 miles? In this case wouldn't the Aegean Sea become a Greek lake?"

Bananiot,

When I was studying Public Intnernatiol Law in London, it happened that the man who taught me, Professor Mazawi, was also the British rep at the International Law of the Sea convention, so I have some pretty good first hand knowledge of the goings on.

Greece was AGAINST any change in the territorial waters rule and for obvious reasons. As a merchant maritime power she wanted maximum freedom of the seas. She was overruled and terriorial sea limits were extended to 12 miles.

So the 12 mile limit is something which came about despite Greek objections and which now is part of the general body of international law. Turkey has taken advantage of the rule and extended its waters in the Black sea and in the south to 12 miles. Greece has not given up her right to extend her waters to 12 miles.

When a nation extends its waters to 12 miles, under the rule, it does not exclude anyone from using these waters for innocent passage. The rule allows even armed warships to move through national waters within the parameters of "innocent passage" so the Aegean would not become a lake, let alone a Greek one if Greece extended its territorial waters to the limit the law allows.

Even with the current 6 mile limit, due to the 16000 kilometer coast line the Aegean is a "Greek lake" in the sense that most of its waters are national Greek waters.

The disparity between air and sea space is something Greece has been claiming since the 1930s and it was not considered a problem by Turkey, or anyone else, till the early 70s.

You are wrong to assert that dog fights occur in the 4 miles between the sea and air spaces. We have daily violations of Athens FIR, and of territorial air space near the Greek mainland. Evia is nowhere near Turkey, yet their jets often violate air space above Evia. The FIR violations are indicative of Turkish cynicism when they buzz airliners of other nations within the Athens FIR which they want to change so that all east Aegean islands will lie in Turkish FIR and planes going from the mainland to the Greek islands will have to file plans with Istanbul FIR and that idea is not going to fly.

The military exercise scenarios of Turkey should give you an idea of their approach. The basic theme is projection of power in the region between Greece and Cyprus, and they often like to assert their power in this area, as when they buzzed the plane carrying the Greek defence minister returning from Cyprus and the plance of the Greek president. These actions say a lot about who we are dealing with.

And for the record, there is no protest lodged by the Turkish foreign ministry alleging violations of their air space or FIR by Greek military planes.

Now add to the above the Turkish notion of "grey areas" in the Aegean, which include the island of Gavdos in the LIbyan sea south of Crete, the assertions by Mrs Ciller that Greece cannot extend its waters in the Ionian sea (facing Italy), the Imia crisis, Ecevit's repeated statements that the Dodecanese transfer to Greece was "a mistake", the formation of the Aegean Army, and you get a picture forming. Do you get the picture Bananiot?

[Nikitas]

Turkey is living a geostrategic nightmre of its own making. The maps like the one Bananiot posted, prove this. The Turks look at maps and think that territories that stand between them and some fantastic destination, ie Paris or Berlin, and think that they are "cut off". It is this thinking that looks at Cyprus as the key to Turkey's "soft underbelly" etc. In the day of cruise missiles that can be guided from 2000 miles away to enter a window or chimney this thinking is total bullshit. The peaceful existence of Hungary and other landlocked states proves it is bullshit. But the Hungarians and others have no imperial ambitions so they co exist peacefully with their neighbors. Almost every neighbor of Turkey has some problem with them- look at the map and ask yourselves, are all the neighbors wrong and Turkey the only one in the right?

And by the way Bananiot, that map you posted does not look much different if you paint the 6 mile limit as it is now. The Aegean is mostly Greek, whether the limit is 3, 6 or 12 miles. Which is the reason the Turks want to impose a totally novel concept of the median line in the delimitation of the continental shelf and the Exclusive Economic Zone, another "patenta" of what is mine is mine and what is yours is also mine. This is not how neighbors behave.

[Get Real!]

I wonder, can Piratis, GR, Paphitis ever put themselves in the shoes of their adversary?

I’d be happy to just as soon as I can remove my foot from under someone else’s…

[Paphitis]

Bananiot said:

"Correct me If I am wrong, but does Greece mean to have 6 miles of territorial waters (χωρικά ύδατα in Greek) and 10 miles of national air space? Is there another country in the world where the τerritorial water is not the same as the national aerospace? Is it not true that the majority of the dog fights between Greek and Turkish jets take place within this 6 to 10 miles space? Is it not also true that Greek war planes also violate the Turkish aerospace? Is it not true that these daily dogfights are taken as part of the practice routine of both air forces? At the same, has Greece given up on her notion of increasing the territorial waters to 10 miles? In this case wouldn't the Aegean Sea become a Greek lake?"

Bananiot,

When I was studying Public Intnernatiol Law in London, it happened that the man who taught me, Professor Mazawi, was also the British rep at the International Law of the Sea convention, so I have some pretty good first hand knowledge of the goings on.

Greece was AGAINST any change in the territorial waters rule and for obvious reasons. As a merchant maritime power she wanted maximum freedom of the seas. She was overruled and terriorial sea limits were extended to 12 miles.

So the 12 mile limit is something which came about despite Greek objections and which now is part of the general body of international law. Turkey has taken advantage of the rule and extended its waters in the Black sea and in the south to 12 miles. Greece has not given up her right to extend her waters to 12 miles.

When a nation extends its waters to 12 miles, under the rule, it does not exclude anyone from using these waters for innocent passage. The rule allows even armed warships to move through national waters within the parameters of "innocent passage" so the Aegean would not become a lake, let alone a Greek one if Greece extended its territorial waters to the limit the law allows.

Even with the current 6 mile limit, due to the 16000 kilometer coast line the Aegean is a "Greek lake" in the sense that most of its waters are national Greek waters.

The disparity between air and sea space is something Greece has been claiming since the 1930s and it was not considered a problem by Turkey, or anyone else, till the early 70s.

You are wrong to assert that dog fights occur in the 4 miles between the sea and air spaces. We have daily violations of Athens FIR, and of territorial air space near the Greek mainland. Evia is nowhere near Turkey, yet their jets often violate air space above Evia. The FIR violations are indicative of Turkish cynicism when they buzz airliners of other nations within the Athens FIR which they want to change so that all east Aegean islands will lie in Turkish FIR and planes going from the mainland to the Greek islands will have to file plans with Istanbul FIR and that idea is not going to fly.

The military exercise scenarios of Turkey should give you an idea of their approach. The basic theme is projection of power in the region between Greece and Cyprus, and they often like to assert their power in this area, as when they buzzed the plane carrying the Greek defence minister returning from Cyprus and the plance of the Greek president. These actions say a lot about who we are dealing with.

And for the record, there is no protest lodged by the Turkish foreign ministry alleging violations of their air space or FIR by Greek military planes.

Now add to the above the Turkish notion of "grey areas" in the Aegean, which include the island of Gavdos in the LIbyan sea south of Crete, the assertions by Mrs Ciller that Greece cannot extend its waters in the Ionian sea (facing Italy), the Imia crisis, Ecevit's repeated statements that the Dodecanese transfer to Greece was "a mistake", the formation of the Aegean Army, and you get a picture forming. Do you get the picture Bananiot?

Bananiot can put himself in the shoes of the enemy all he likes. This still does not change The International Law of The Seas, which clearly state that every nation has a right to extend her territorial seas out to 12nm. The airspace above sovereign territorial waters are by default national airspace.

http://www.un.org/Depts/los/convention_ ... /part2.htm

FIR however is not to be confused with national airspace. FIR are "Flight Information Regions" (International Airspace) which are handed to a jurisdictional authority by ICAO, for Air Traffic Control(ATC) purposes and Search and Rescue duties. Just because it is not national airspace does not mean aircraft are allowed to fly through an FIR without filing a Flight Plan. In fact this is illegal, and it is this the TAF does on an almost daily basis, necessitating interception by the HAF.

The worse thing of all, the TAF is endangering civil aircraft movements, and the flying public should be aware of the dangers of a potential mid air collision, particularly in a non radar controlled environment. Procedural Separation is achieved from 2 way communication between aircraft and ATC, and you can appreciate the potential danger if there are military jets playing silly buggers in the area and who are not necessarily on the same frequency. An accident waiting to happen!

[Get Real!]

That so much of your "tribe" even convinces themselves that they are Cypriot Cypriot...

If Cyprus is Greek why are you not liberating her? No guts no glory I’m afraid…

[Paphitis]

That so much of your "tribe" even convinces themselves that they are Cypriot Cypriot...

If Cyprus is Greek why are you not liberating her? No guts no glory I’m afraid…

Greece had to liberate every square mile, from Macedonia down to Crete. And this was done fighting a common enemy.

Turkey has never made any concessions in her history, and it is about time we looked over to Greece for some inspiration. But to do what Greece did in the past requires strong leadership (Statesmanship) and years of preparation. The people need to prepare themselves psychologically and mentally for this kind of sacrifice. Cyprus has done it before and so have many other countries around the world. Unfortunately, Cyprus has no leadership, and the people are being depressed into a defeatist way of thinking, which will eventually take over all of our society. The danger is the possibility that the Cypriot people may be brain washed to accept an unfair peace settlement such as the Annan Plan. Even history books are being altered and very soon Cyprus will adopt a new generation of Bananiots, unless parents are proactive in the education of their children, which does not neglect the teaching of Cypriot History such as the glorious EOKA campaign of the 1950s.