Cyprus-Forum.com

[Nikitas]

Bananiot said:

"Klerides is not pro anything, he is a realist "

In an interview on Greek TV Klerides told Greek journalist Anna Panagiotarea that Cyprus has a territorial sea of 3 kilometers! It shocked me to hear a lawyer, politician and president of a nation express total lack of knowledge of his country's territory and of international law and custom. At sea there are no kilometers, there are sea miles and Cyprus has territorial waters extending to 12 sea miles.

Klerides at a stroke deprived Cyprus of 80 per cent of its sea territory. A man who takes national territory so lightly is no realist.

He is also a former military man, albeit of limited experience. How could anyone who has even the slightest military knowledge accept the interim military arrangements foreseen in the Annan plan and how could he regard the territorial settlement as rational given the impossibly long and twisting demarcation line! Where is the realism in that conession.

Unfortunately he is not the only GC politician who does not understand what he is dealing with. They think that dialectic is enough and it is not. We are dealing with an adversary who is cynical and has long term plans. You do not overturn such plans with concessions like the Annan plan.

[-mikkie2-]

"I think this is very mistaken thinking. Turkey has earmarked 600 million new Turkish lira by way of subisdy to the TRNC economy in 2008 (source: a speech made by prime-Minister Soyer in July). "

Interesting!

The Turkish Lira has fallen in value by 1/3rd in recent weeks. Turkey has a huge deficit which is getting bigger by the day. There is a massive capital flight from Turkey at the present time. The Turkish government seems to think it is immune from the current economic tsunami that is sweeping the world. Its is trying to increase spending with money that it hasn't got. It will soon be knocking at the door of the IMF again and this time around, IMF help will come with a bigger sting in the tail that in 2001.

Yes, Turkey is a large economy but it is a very fragile one. Turkey will have to face some basic facts also. Likewise the 'trnc' has to face some basic facts as well. Basically, if Turkey suffers then so will the 'trnc'. The harder Turkey hurts the 'trnc' will hurt even harder. It is indeed already happening.

Perhaps the economic crisis will solve the Cyprus problem once and for all?

[Kifeas]

Rubbish Kifeas. Klerides is not pro anything, he is a realist who understands that everytime we extended our arm beyond our reach, we paid a hefty price. Listen to him tonight and then draw your own conclusions Paphitis. Can you do this?

I already listened to Klerides, many times, and I have made my conclusion as to where he comes from and what he stands for. I do not need to listen to Klerides telling me that this will be the last chance for a solution, that the 'trnc" will become recognized and that we will be faced with a new "Asia minor" calamity, if we do not bow to the Turkish and Anglo-america demands, and as soon as possible sign to any solution that will come from abroad. I hear all these from the Turks and Talat's mouth, every day.

What he never explained to us, and will not do so tonight, is how all these will occur, especially now that Cyprus is an EU member state and a with a treaty of accession essentially prohibiting any other EU member state from recognizing any other entity other than the RoC, within the territory of another EU member state, and how the UN SC will either do so with at least 3 out of 5 certain vetoes in our favor, and without counting the UK that also cannot legally and politically vote in favor of recognition. What remains, is the US, and I hope with the election of Barak Obama, this possibility will also become extinct. Who will recognize the "trnc," and go in this way against the (even forced) will of the entire EU and each one of its member states? Ask Klerides if he has an answer to this, tonight? Al he will do is plain scaremongering, in a fruitless effort to once more try to reduce the moral and the resistance spirit of the GC society, for his own reasons!

I used to have had some respect to the man, but unfortunately I have nearly lost most of it. He has essentially nothing more to offer, and those rolling him around the media from time to time, are doing a terrible disservice to the man and his posthumous fame. They should let him spend his last years in peace, as he had chosen himself to do, instead of trying to use and manipulate him for their own ends. He is too old, mentally and physically, to be able to offer the best of advice.

[Nikitas]

Turkey is keeping a foot in Cyprus form ore than just the benefit of the TCs. It wants to exercise claims to the seabed and resources all the way to the midline with Egypt, asserting that islands, even independent ones, cannot have their own continental shelf or EEZ. It is a typically cynical Turkish attitude and no matter how realistic or otherwise Klerides was and is, that attitude is not going to change by dialectic alone.

Wake up!

[-mikkie2-]

"Unfortunately he is not the only GC politician who does not understand what he is dealing with. They think that dialectic is enough and it is not. We are dealing with an adversary who is cynical and has long term plans. You do not overturn such plans with concessions like the Annan plan."

Clerides has been around the block several times. He has dealt with the Cyprus problem all his life and he understands full well with what he had to deal with. Clerdies is not an idel politician but he had one feature that most politicians don't have and that is pragmatism.

It is all very well drawing red lines everywhere and saying what we can accept and what we can't but unfortunately, Bananiot is right - we can't have all that we want and we have to work within the limits of our influence.

Being righteous never gets results. If you want to see geopolitics in action you only have to see how Turkey has got a seat on the UN Security Council, despite being one of the states that does not comply with any UN SC resolutions! At the end of the day its all about what influence you can exert (Turkey bribed plenty of countries into supporting its nomination) and who you know.

In the absence of any real power (except from the 'nuclear' EU veto option) there is nothing that Cyprus can do.

Now we are caught between a rock and a hard place. We need a solution as soon as practicable. We cannot wait another 5 or 10 or 15 years. In 15 years we will be facing a million Turks in Cyprus. Who is going to kick them out then? What happens when the GC's become a minority in Cyprus?

Those advocating walking away from the current talks are delusional (Karoyan in particular). This would be a disaster for our side. We have to keep pushing at the talks and to have flexibility. If nothing else this will expose the Turkish side as the inflexible and intransigent one and perhaps then when the other players in the Cyprus problem will get fed up with Turkey we may start seeing a change.

[Kifeas]

"Unfortunately he is not the only GC politician who does not understand what he is dealing with. They think that dialectic is enough and it is not. We are dealing with an adversary who is cynical and has long term plans. You do not overturn such plans with concessions like the Annan plan."

Clerides has been around the block several times. He has dealt with the Cyprus problem all his life and he understands full well with what he had to deal with. Clerdies is not an idel politician but he had one feature that most politicians don't have and that is pragmatism.

It is all very well drawing red lines everywhere and saying what we can accept and what we can't but unfortunately, Bananiot is right - we can't have all that we want and we have to work within the limits of our influence.

Being righteous never gets results. If you want to see geopolitics in action you only have to see how Turkey has got a seat on the UN Security Council, despite being one of the states that does not comply with any UN SC resolutions! At the end of the day its all about what influence you can exert (Turkey bribed plenty of countries into supporting its nomination) and who you know.

In the absence of any real power (except from the 'nuclear' EU veto option) there is nothing that Cyprus can do.

Now we are caught between a rock and a hard place. We need a solution as soon as practicable. We cannot wait another 5 or 10 or 15 years. In 15 years we will be facing a million Turks in Cyprus. Who is going to kick them out then? What happens when the GC's become a minority in Cyprus?

Those advocating walking away from the current talks are delusional (Karoyan in particular). This would be a disaster for our side. We have to keep pushing at the talks and to have flexibility. If nothing else this will expose the Turkish side as the inflexible and intransigent one and perhaps then when the other players in the Cyprus problem will get fed up with Turkey we may start seeing a change.

Yes Mikkie, you are a good boy, and you even speak like one! Very "mature," and very "sensible," just like Klerides!

[-mikkie2-]

Kifeas

Do you have any realistic answers to the consequences of allowing the Cyprus problem to run for another 30 years?

I do agree with most of what you say. Unfortunately, your lack of answers or realistic strategy as to how we go about changing the situation in Cyprus is sadly lacking.

Do you have any answers?

Anything at all?

This is not about being a 'good boy' and getting a pat on the head. This is about the survival of the Greeks of Cyprus in the longer term. The longer we leave the problem to fester the worse it will get for us.

At the moment, events will hopefully change things slightly for the better.

Bush will be out, Obama (most likely) will be in. What will this change for us? Well, not a great deal. I can't see Obama going all guns blazing to force Turkey out of Cyprus. We may get voices of support but thats about it. Turkey is still too important for the US.

The financial crisis - this may have more of an impact than a change of US president. Perhaps through economic hardship the TC's may see a more ameanable solution to be in their best interests.

But the key for us is to continue to engage the Turks in negotiations - pulling out is not an option. What do you think? Any ideas?

[DT.]

Did he now DT? Perhaps you agree with Paphitis that Klerides has lost his marbles.

I use to think he was an intelligent and astute individual. He was a Mosquito Pilot.

But I do not know what happened when he became President? A good example of old age Cognitive Decline.

The guy is delusional to think that these peace talks are our final opportunity.

Why would a former leader use a fear campaign against his own people so that we accept any unfair peace settlement which hands Cyprus over to Turkey?

Klerides was always a pro-US, pro-British politician. His entire career was built and facilitated on this premise. He received considerable help from these two entities, in becoming who he became. His aim and mission is thus to facilitate the interests of his benefactors. Britain and the US are up to a closing of the Cyprus issue, within the context of safeguarding Turkey's and theirs ill perceived interests. Klerides feels he is "obliged" to facilitate this policy. "Scaremongering" the GCs, he figured out, might be a good way to reduce their moral ground and push them towards the way his patrons want, which is to accept any solution that will be placed in front of us so that the problem is "wrapped and closed" in their way.

Thank you Kifeas!

I gathered as much. I also presume Anastasiades suffers from the same disease. Cypriots need to be vigilant to this type of treachery.

As for President X, I have been unable to work out his agenda. He has me stumped.

I say, bring back Tassos Pappadopoulos. He stood true to his people.

But still, we have Marios Karoyian. The next President of Cyprus IMHO!

I must agree with you on Marios karoyian.

He is the most intelligent, most well rounded, balanced, sensible, frank, sound and straight forward GC political voice, at this given time!

You have got to be kidding me.

Face it, there are no leaders with vision on this rock. Even Bananiots hero Anastasiades just spent the afternoon telling a bunch of old coupists in some Kafenes, how we must all fight to maintain our Hellenism.....WHEN WE ACCEPT GUARANTEES MR ANASTASIADES WE'LL BE LUCKY IF WE STILL CONSIDER OURSELVES MEDITERRANEAN, let alone your idea of being Hellenic!

You can stuff your Karoyians, Anastasiades's and Christofias's where the sun don't shine.I've had a bellyfull of all of them and there's not one statesman amongst them.

[Bananiot]

How about Klerides DT? Do you agree with everything that is thrown at the old man by some forumers?

Kifeas is being more than naive to believe that the policies of the USA will change because a new man will occupy the white house. This is a ridiculous notion that cannot seriously stand up to criticism. It is also naive to believe that the EU will come to our aid and help us out in case Turkey pushes for recognition of the "TRNC". It is extremely absurd to believe this when since 2004 nobody in the EU talks about the Turkish occupation but basically the EU seems more concerned at lifting the (so called) economic isolation of the Turkish Cypriots. The world, as Kifeas envisages it will not be with us for quite a few eons yet and this is a fact well known to the great Greek minds in the classical period and Kifeas will do well to start studying them.

His inability to comprehend the way the world is run causes, it seems, great frustration to Kifeas, so much that recently he came to adopt fully the Denktash line on the Cyprob and he is now calling for an agreed partition as long as we get 82% of the land.

[Bananiot]

Nikitas you have repeatedly referred to what Klerides said to Panayiotarea and also to the aegean issues between Greece and Turkey. I would like to question your notion that we are totally justified in our claims and that Turkey is always the bad boy. In fact, every time I hear or see in the news tha Turkey is at it again, I always think that there is something the Greek government wants to hide from the people and tries to divert attention by employing an old trick, the fear of the eternal enemy. I must admit, it always works but this is always at the expence of transparency.

Correct me If I am wrong, but does Greece mean to have 6 miles of territorial waters (χωρικά ύδατα in Greek) and 10 miles of national air space? Is there another country in the world where the τerritorial water is not the same as the national aerospace? Is it not true that the majority of the dog fights between Greek and Turkish jets take place within this 6 to 10 miles space? Is it not also true that Greek war planes also violate the Turkish aerospace? Is it not true that these daily dogfights are taken as part of the practice routine of both air forces? At the same, has Greece given up on her notion of increasing the territorial waters to 10 miles? In this case wouldn't the Aegean Sea become a Greek lake?