Cyprus-Forum.com

[DT.]

I am afraid you have missed the essence of what I wrote DT.

Bananiot...the unification at any price jist you are trying to get through needs backing up with practical arguments.

Does the GC way of life improve with a solution of the type of the Annan Plan or not?

After all is that not what we are all trying to accomplish? A better and safer way of life for us and our kids?

I refer you to my post above and compel you to begin tackling the practicalities of this mess rather than the emotional sing alongs of unification for the sake of unification regardless of who divisive some forms of unification are.

[Piratis]

So we say we want to live in a truly democratic united country,but we are planning to achieve this by War,the most undemocratic way of them all...

Ever heard of revolution Bir? Where the people (the great majority) has revolted against their rulers (often foreign) to gain freedom and democracy?

I find nothing undemocratic in a revolution which aims to bring democracy and freedom to the people.

Of course we all hope that democracy and freedom can be achieved in another way, and I hope that this will be the case for Cyprus.

What is certain is that a ruler never gave up his rule voluntarily. He had to be forced to do it. It is unrealistic to expect Turkey to give up her control over north Cyprus unless she is forced to do so. Of course there are many different ways that force can be applied, but all of them will require a change in the balance of power.

I am glad to hear that "balance of power" does not mean only military power...Of course revolutions are perfectly okey,dear Piratis,bu where will this revolution come from???? If it is strictly GC vs Turkey type of revolution I doubt it can ever succeed....We need to get the backing of the majority of the TCs....And that is not as difficult as it might seem...given that there are only 80,000 TCs left in the North all we need is to attrack 40,000 TCs to the areas controled by the ROC...But do you see any such attempts in the Republic??? Where are all those measures to make it very attractive for TCs to return home???I absolutely agree,Turkey will not leave on her own accord...I just can't see where this balance of power change is going to come from..You know the reason for my alarm...Each passing year brings the TC community a bit closer to extinction...But unless the ROC gets wise and turns this into GC and TC together vs Turkey type of geopolitical issue we are all doomed...This is no idle threat...You will have 1 Million settlers in Cyprus during our lifetime...And the only place they will go after that would be the South...I hope I never have to say "I told You so!"...

Bir, when I talk about change of balance of power I don't mean that a war will necessarily be needed. There are many examples during our history that rulers gave up foreign possessions without a war because they realized they didn't have the power to keep them anymore. I will just give to you a recent example, the one of Latvia, who was liberated from USSR although there is a 30% Russian population in it which would preferred if Latvia remained part of Russia.

Also, if war is needed, I never talk about a 1 on 1 war of Cyprus VS Turkey, since no matter how much the balance of power will change Cyprus will never have the power to win such war. I am talking about a bigger regional or world war, like those that are made a couple of times each century or so, where Turkey and Cyprus will be involved. Greece for example won back Rhodes and the Dodecaneese after WWII when Italy which occupied those islands until then, found herself on the loosing side of that war. Again, there are many such examples in our history.

In the future, with Turkey torn between Secularists and Islamists, as well as between Turks and Kurds, I find it very possible for Turkey to find itself in the loosing side of such regional/world war.

I believe that if Islam takes over Turkey and at the same time the Turks remain as arrogant as they are today, plus the fact that you have the much more willing to comply Kurds sitting on a ton of oil, and if you consider the anti-Islam sentiment that keeps rising in Europe and the USA, then many, currently unpredictable by most, things can happen in our region. The change in balance of power that I talk about is not just words. It is something that keeps happening, and will happen again.

About a Cypriot revolution (which could happen in the context of a world/regional war):

Yes, I agree with you that the more people supporting a revolution the better. But you don't pay people to support a revolution. The people should be inspired by the aims of the revolution, in our case freedom and democracy.

Just yesterday I was watching a documentary about the Silk industry of Lyon. One of the things said in the documentary was that the people of Lyon where against the French revolution because the Royalty was their best customers and the city dependent on silk products sold to them.

In every revolution you will find "loyalists", people who are against the revolution because they have personal interests, as well as Bananiots who are the kind of good slaves who would never fight against their master. This doesn't reduce the significance of the revolution, as long as it is supported by the vast majority of people.

[Piratis]

The Annan Plan had grey areas, there is no denying this. The question that a serious person can ask, however, is this: Can we expect anything better in the future?

And the answer that any serious person would give is this: Yes, by rejecting the Annan plan we already have something which is less bad than what we would have with Annan plan.

The Annan plan would transform the de facto partition into a de jure partition. The only "benefit" that we would have is that maybe without any guarantees, we would be given about 7% of land back. Everything else was negative, both in terms of national interests as well as personal interests for the vast majority of the population.

It is like a thief stealing from you 100.000 Euro, and then says he would give you back 10.000 Euro of what he stole, if in return you give to him your Mercedes with worth 50.000 Euro!

Words aside, we have two paths in front of us. It is either a velvet partition or federation. There is no other way about it. Federation can only be brought about with an Annan type plan.

There is a 3rd option: Insist on our rights. No "Velvet Partition" and no "Annan Partition". Why are you trying to remove this option from the Cypriot people and force them to accept one of the two de jure partitions? Because this is what suits your Turkish friends? So they can keep our lands without suffering any consequences?

[Get Real!]

I can't believe you've been lured by Bananiot to discuss the AP again in late 2008!

[DT.]

I can't believe you've been lured by Bananiot to discuss the AP again in late 2008!

Its good to remind people the absurdity of this plan even now. Will stop ambitious politicians from trying to present anything like that again.

[Nikitas]

Re Bananiot, you are going to drive us all mad with your fear mongering. If you want to convince us that a major compromise is the only way out then point out how BOTH sides are compromising, not only the GCs.

By what strange mathematics are the other minority communities summed up to zero while 18 per cent of Cypriots are given a privilieged status?

I feel somewhat insulted when fellow Cypriots insist that their community must have double the land per capita than that allocated to the other communities, for no other reason that they belong to a specific ethnic grouping. The insult is made worse when they say that people unconnected with Cyprus must not only remain, but must be given title to land forcibly taken from others.

Those that want a peaceful solution must present one which is preferable to a non solution or outright conflict. So far they have not done it.

All assertions about complications to the Cyprus issue are bullshit. The only complications arise from the twisting of fundamental principles just to accomodate the desire for special status of one community of Cyprus. Having gone as far as equal political status and bizonality, we stop there. (Note that equality puts TCs on one side and lumps ALL other communities together at the other end of the scale). From that point on any special status is counterproductive, like the 70-30 was in the 60s. Equality presupposes fairness and so far there is no indication from the other side that they have any conception of fairness.

Yeah, I know, in politics we must be realists etc and concepts like fairness are secondary. But this requirement is only levied against the GCs, no one else is urged to be realistic and temper their demands to realistic levels. People are not as dumb as realists would like.

[Nikitas]

Here is an excerpt from the latest article of Sener Levent in today's Politis. It is for the realists.

"one of the leading factors [in the Cyprus impasse] is the state of the TCs. Even those among us who support peace do not accept that we have been invaded and are under occupation. If a nation is under occupation, it is vital that the society which is occupied express dissatisfaction with the occupation, is that not so?"

[Piratis]

Nikitas, the biggest illusion of all, that people like Bananiot have is that they consider themselves as realists. They confuse their defeatism with realism.

If they have been realists then they would realise that there is no way that Greek Cypriots can accept such an unfair "solution" like the Annan plan. The reality is that GCs have rejected such "solution" and they will do the same again if they have to. Time for Bananiots to wake up and see the reality.

[Get Real!]

It’s obvious that Bananiot despises the mainstream GC psyche so attacking and resisting them comes naturally for him, but what he seemingly forgets is that if they ever go down he’ll go down with them because he has oddly chosen to live among them...

[Paphitis]

He may have a golden hand shake from somewhere. Not sure where. It appears as though Bananiot would sell his soul, so selling our rights is of no consequence to him...