Cyprus-Forum.com

[Main_Source]

i.e ...blame TC migration north soley on fear of GC...and not take into consideration it was the TMT who wanted division and were killing well known TC who were opposed to it.

[garbitsch]

i believe settlers who are removed from GC homes and have followed the same (or similar) procedures required to attain citizenship under the RoC guidelines then i guess its ok for them to tag along and be looked down on for the rest of their lvies as 3rd class scum. of course theyd have to get off land that doesnt belong to them. turkey can help out with this.

I read an EU survey that found Greeks the most racist nation in the EU. It was before Cyprus joined the EU, but it looks like the GCs are the new champions. How can you keep talking about human rights and at the same time call some people 3rd class scum with no hesitation. Their place in Cyprus may be questionable, but you have no right to call them scum. They are poor people, they had no idea they would be part of a problem when they came here.

Sorry to speak on behalf of Magik, but if I know him a little, he didn't call "scum" to these people, but he means, these settlers will be regarded as 3rd class scum by the rest of the Greek Cypriots. I hope this is what he means, otherwise my love for him will come to an end!

[erolz]

Erol,

You very much like to point to the events from 63-74 and blame them squarely on the GC's.

Not actually this not what I do. What I do is challenege the view that GC were not more to blame or mostly to blame vs TC.

Does it not cross your mind that much of what happened actually played into the hands of the Turks who used this to their advanatage?

I have always accepted this was true to some degree.

Don't you think for one minute that perhaps certain elements, being TMT or mainland Turk, didn't use such events as a means to propagate plans fo
r separation or partition?

I have always accepted this was true to some degree. What I do not accept is that GC and TC were equally guilty for the events in Cyprus in the period 63-74, or assertations that it was TC actions and suggestions that were the bigger part in causing som many TC to flee thier homes.

To just simply focus on the relatively small time period of 63 and 67 has the effect of missing the true essense of the Cyprus problem as we see it today.

I only focus on it to the degree to which I feel posters here are misrepresnting the reality of those times. No more and no less.

Whatever you may say about what happened in that period, the events of 74 were several orders of magnitude worse on our community but your way of trying to decouple what happened in 1974 with what happened previously simply shows in my view that you possibly think that we got our just deserts and that we shouldn't complain, or that we should accept that as due 'punishment' for it is perceived we did prior to the invasion.

Again I deny yhis accusation. I most certainly do not wish to decouple what happned in 74 from what happend before - quite the reverse in fact. I do not argue that in absolute numerical numbers what the GC sufferd in 74 was 'less' than what TC suffered in the period 63-74. Such comparisions to me are actually pointless. What is not pointless if both sides adopting a realistic attitude to their own culpability in the events in Cyprus pre 74 and post. Not only do I consider this not pointless but actually a pre requist of us truely learning to live togeather in peace and harmony and with mututal respect in the future. I do not claim and never had claimed that you should simply accept the state of Cyprus today as your 'just deserts' for previous actions. I do think however that you should accept that their should be some 'payment' from the GC community for it's part in the tradegey that is Cyprus today and not expect to go back to a pre 74 senario without any 'cost' (compromise) from yourselves.

[erolz]

i.e ...blame TC migration north soley on fear of GC...and not take into consideration it was the TMT who wanted division and were killing well known TC who were opposed to it.

Main Source no where in this thread or elsewhere have I claimed that GC violence and the threat of GC violence was the sole factor that led to TC leaving their homes (and your assertion above that this is what I have done is in itself a perversion of the truth). I have (repeatedly) accepted their were other factors, that were the reponsibility of TC leadership and Turkey. What I refuse to accept is that it was these TC reponsible facvtors that were the larger factor for the fleeing of so many TC from their homes. The largest single factor in the fleeing of TC from their homes in this period was GC (planned and organised) violence against TC and the fear this engendered.

I know of not a single documented case where TC killed TC for refusing to flee their homes when 'told' to do so. TC moderates were killed by TC extremists, but not for refusing to flee their homes but for being moderates that advocated working with GC. TC did use force and sanction and even kill TC to stop them returning to their homes - this I accept, though how widespread this was is hard to know.

So I ask you once again - do you still maintain that GC violence and threat of violence was not the main (biggest single) factor in why so many TC fled their homes in this period?

[MicAtCyp]

In my opinion the original scope of forming the enclave areas was to concentrate in there the TC members of TMT together with their families. So they would form strong solid military areas all of which together been a network that later with the help of Turkey would unite the empty space between them to achive partition.

[metecyp]

In my opinion the original scope of forming the enclave areas was to concentrate in there the TC members of TMT together with their families. So they would form strong solid military areas all of which together been a network that later with the help of Turkey would unite the empty space between them to achive partition.

Even if we accept what you said is 100% true, this could not have been successful if there was no real threat from GC community towards TC community. People would not leave their homes and environment and go and live in miserable conditions for the sake of pleasing the authorities. There was a real security concern for TCs and most of TCs thought this was a necessary step to make themselves more secure. Did TMT exploit these fears? Possibly so. Were these enclaves later useful for defacto partition of today? Maybe. But again it was the REAL security concern of TCs and GC oppression that led to enclaves.

[Main_Source]

Erolz, I honeslty dont know...I couldnt say. I see lots of arguments for and against this notion. Where did the violnce start? who cast the first stone? do you really know?

[erolz]

Erolz, I honeslty dont know...I couldnt say. I see lots of arguments for and against this notion. Where did the violnce start? who cast the first stone? do you really know?

Well who cast the first stone was not the question or the assertion I was challenging. Who cast the first stone does not have any bearing on what the major cause of TC fleeing their homes after 63 was. I have no doubts at all that the biggest single cause that motivated TC to flee their homes after 63 was GC violence and the threat of GC violence. I actually find it depressing and discouraging that this can even be seen as a 'contentious' assertion. To no this is no less obviously tus that saying the biggest single cause for GC fleeing their homes in 74 was Turkish violence and the threat of Turkish violence agaist GC. How would you feel if I attacked such an assertion and said that it was a 'distortion' and a selective truth and that GC could have stayed in the north but chose to leave for poltical reasons and not fear for their saftey, or that only 10,000 GC were direct victims of Turkish violence so the other 190,000 that fled their homes must ahve done so beacuse of other reasons, or shown that the GC adminsitration had planned evacutation of GC in the event of Turkish intervention and that this planning proves that actualy the mass evacuations of GC was more a poltical manipulation planned by GC to discredit Turkish intervention in the eyes of the world. Imagine how you would feel in the face of such arguments and you start to get an idea of how I feel in the face of assertion that it was not GC violence against TC that was the major factor that led to so many TC fleeing their homes in 63.

[Viewpoint]

erolz bravo, couldnt have put it better myself, even the very evident and the fact that you continuously argued that GC aggression was not the sole factor for TCs moving into enclaves but the main factor, our GC contributors continue to agrue otherwise, pes dogrusu or banaiamou (sorry for incorrect spelling), I salute firstly your intelligence and then your patience and calm.

[Main_Source]

ok...so why did the a certain amount of Greek Cypriots become agressive to TC?...and do you think TC had nothing to do with the build up of agression???